BurgerBB Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 BYOND Key: BurgerBB Game ID: bVz-dzmT Player Byond Key: Kyres Staff involved: Ahelped Yonnimer but it was unclear if anything at all was done. More things occured after the ahelp, however. Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, but it was uncertain if any action was taken. Approximate Date/Time:July 28th, 2018 5:30PM PST Reason for complaint: I don't even know really what specifically to focus on in this complaint since this incident has just been depressing as it's part of a larger problem in Aurorastation. ERT was called for an unknown reason. An AI was telecoms griefing so it was impossible to know exactly what was happening. A general announcement was made asking any hostiles to stand down, if there were any. We met with the Captain and some security force stragglers. We gathered information on the situation and it was reported that the Head of Personnel was armed, shooting at people, and stole some high value items from the vault. We went to medical to take care of people who were injured. At the time, I spotted the Head of Personnel in a hazard suit and flagged them. They ran away in maintenance. I opened the door and then they proceeded to open fire without a word. Specifically targeting my feet and hands with the .357 revolver, incapacitating me for the rest of the round. I did not fire a lethal shot at all during that, and only fired my ion rifle at his hardsuit in self defense to prevent them from causing any further damage. If I wanted to take them down, I would've used the door charges that I brought with me to do it. I would've opened the door and threw a grenade, hell at the very basic minimum, I could've opened the door and just shot at their feet; but I didn't because ERT do not exist to validhunt. I ahelped it and I wasn't really sure if anything was dealt with. Yomminer told me that they shot me because they believed that I would shoot them back. They were quite sympathetic to them fucking up however I don't think anything was done. I then confronted the HoP in ooc about it. BurgerBB: >be ERT, tell the antag to stop, they whip out a .357 and shoot both of my hands and feet BurgerBB: >HRP Kyres1: you're ERT BurgerBB: Now I will make a note to just shoot antags on sight I guess??? BurgerBB: And the cycle of shit continues. Kyres1: thats... what most ERTs do??? BurgerBB: You literally just. Kyres1: that round was filled with lrp shitters it was ridiculous BurgerBB: Open fired on ERt. BurgerBB: While the ERT were doing things peaceful. Kyres1: welcome to playing ERT!!!! BurgerBB: ERT don't exist to valid. Kyres1: you're super power rangers!!! BurgerBB: Read the rules. Kyres1: yes they do!! Kyres1: burger Kyres1: the very concept of ERT is ghosts spawning with the most powerful gear in the game explicitly to valid Kyres1: you have no incentive to remain alive BurgerBB: It literally isn't. BurgerBB: ERT is supposed to provide RP to the round. Kyres1: have you ever seen an ERT provide rp? BurgerBB: A bad ERT goes on a validhunt. BurgerBB: Yes, yes I have. BurgerBB: Its your fear of shitty ERT that caused you to be a dick and valid me. BurgerBB: HoP was robust but that does not excuse the "Unga Bunga shoot on sight." Kyres1: i did not shoot on sight anybody tbh Kyres1: besides the ERT Overall this is a very depressing view of the ERT and their antag actions are very questionable especially given their "strats" during the round. While obtaining the best stuff at your disposal isn't against the rules, nor should it be, but I think it paints a serious picture of someone when they run into an issue like this when they obtain the best armor available to them, and use the .357 limb targeting strat to take down someone, while also saying this in OOC. This sort of attitude isn't good for HRP and I pray that it's nipped in the bud if it hasn't bloomed into an ugly sunflower, yet.
Sytic Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 Speaking from experience as someone who readily enjoys playing ERT and has faced off with Kyres and another antagonists multiple times, as ERT, you don't come to fuck around. Your warning should be, "Be on the ground when I see you or I put you there." You have been called in under the belief there is already a highly dangerous threat that Security can't handle. There are very few scenarios in which you should be taking prisoners. Your opening line when seeing an operational antag should be a grenade, not text. The antagonists know you have come to royally fuck their shit up. You should expect that and counterbalance this with fucking their shit up.
kyres1 Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 I'll respond to this the same way I did in the round. Think about this. You're ERT, right? OOCly, you're this. An observer role which can spawn in upon request, is given some of the highest tiers of equipment in the game, and given a single goal. That goal is to respond to, and repair the emergency situation on board the station. You have access to all radio frequencies, the highest authority of any individual on board during the situation, and there can be up to six of you. ICly, you're this. An extremely heavily armed emergency response team devoted to remedying the situation. This usually involves shooting literally anything anybody deems hostile until it is dead, again, with the most potent weaponry available in the game. An antagonist ICly may expect you to board with overwhelmingly ridiculous force and survival against an ERT is next to none if you don't shoot first. You are loyal to NanoTrasen and have no incentive to ever listen to any hostile unless they are confronting you with something like a bomb threat or hostage (and even then, most ERTs just shoot through that.) I have ahelped before asking if it's even possible to gank ERT. It's honestly not. I have seen countless times where mercs plant a TTV at the ERT shuttle dock and have it detonate as soon as they step out, gibbing the entire team without a word being said. I have seen cultists abuse blood boil to delete ERT troopers through walls without their presence even being known. Remember that one Sol marines event where a trooper got headgibbed for turning a corner without even knowing there were people at the end of the hallway? In short, you're a hyper robust space power ranger which exists to bring an end to the round's progression. You effectively aren't even considered a character. Now this leads me to ask my own question. Do I wish it was different? Yes, I do. I wish ERT wasn't called literally every other round, and I wish ERT roleplayed properly. I also wish ERT would be heavily nerfed for the sheer risk you take just by existing near them. People want ERT gone for a reason. Edit : I, and you forgot to bring up the fact that at this point the majority if not all of security was incapacitated by me. I'm not sure if you were able to catch them saying "Stone is killing us" amidst the telecomms grief, but that happened. It basically gave me even less incentive to give you a chance to shoot me, because you'd have literally no reason not to upon seeing my loadout.
BurgerBB Posted July 29, 2018 Author Posted July 29, 2018 Then perhaps this should be changed to a community complaint because what I'm reading is that everyone wants things to be different but they continue to contribute to the problem because it takes more than 1 person to change the attitude regarding the purpose of the ERT. See now what's happening to me is that despite doing what was intended as ERT, I am punished for it. If I was like most players I would then say "Well next time I'll shoot and ask questions later." and then contribute to the problem.
kyres1 Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 See now what's happening to me is that despite doing what was intended as ERT, I am punished for it. If I was like most players I would then say "Well next time I'll shoot and ask questions later." and then contribute to the problem. I'm gonna give another depressing response to this. In the sparing interaction you had with me, you weren't doing what ERT are intended to do. Rather than shoulder your bullpup and aim me down, you treated it like you were normal security and ended up dying for it. Optimally, the situation would've gone like this - You shoulder the bullpup, aim at me, if I continue to run, shoot me until I'm dead. That's it. That's what I could expect ICly and OOCly of ERT, as that is, again, their purpose. To validhunt and conclude rounds.
Yonnimer Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 I deemed kyres's actions during the original ahelp to be fine, as it did seem the ERT was telling them to surrender, or be shot. Same with how security was trying to handle it. It seemed like a miscommunication on a few fronts on what the ERT and security wanted done about Stone during the round.
Faris Posted August 3, 2018 Posted August 3, 2018 Generally when an Emergency Response Team is called, is not that all RP is thrown it, it's that at that point, escalation of conflict has generally reached at the end of the spectrum. The calling of an ERT is generally called when on-station assets on this station were not sufficient, which in this case was. It's for an emergency the station cannot handle. Now, the series of events that I see are as follows, based on logs provided here. Stone does things that requires an ERT ERT is called, mobilized and deployed. They assess that things are going wrong, from the AI doing things with radio. They're briefed by stragglers about Stone. You move to medical, find Stone and call them out. They run, they close the door behind them and wait. You hold your rifle, an indication that you are ready for a fight. You open the door and they engage you. I don't see the issue with this? You're chasing them with a weapon, there's intent to disable them. There is roleplay that covered the entire round which resulted in ERT being called, their objective is to end what ever emergency there is. Stopping Amaya Stone falls under their objectives one way or another. The Trooper called them out, Stone made the conscious decision to still evade so the trooper pulled out their weapon and went through a door they closed behind them. You engaged in a chase and they effectively ambushed you, taking you out as a threat to their livelihood. Usually we close complaints that have already been resolved, but I still gave this a double look. I just think the main issue here stems more as an error of judgement. To avoid that issue of being engaged like that and effectively losing a part of your body, the trooper should have considered alternatives to approach this. The Trooper went after them alone with a held and ready rifle instead of coordinating with the entire team or considering the trickery here. What does this all mean? This last bit is an indication that this is really more of an in-character issue here. I deemed kyres's actions during the original ahelp to be fine, as it did seem the ERT was telling them to surrender, or be shot. Same with how security was trying to handle it. It seemed like a miscommunication on a few fronts on what the ERT and security wanted done about Stone during the round. Basically this checks out. Keeping this open for another 24 hours.
BurgerBB Posted August 3, 2018 Author Posted August 3, 2018 I'm very disappointed that this went nowhere despite the attitudes present in ooc and in this thread regarding the purpose of the ERT, especially given the context clues that occured in the round. I'm speaking of course of the common Aurorastation traitor meta where they rob the hazard suit and purchase revolvers from the uplink, instagib the limbs, and then fart away. The holding of a rifle is kind of a null argument considering that, with a properly equipped ERT, they cannot holster it. If you expect an ERT to drop their weapon in this situation, then that's dumb as heck and it would've likely occurred anyways, but I am talking theoreticals. Well it seems like I'm just going to shoot on sight antags for now on if they've murdered someone before, unless they openly surrender. Absolute shame that this behavior is deemed okay.
Faris Posted August 3, 2018 Posted August 3, 2018 The complaint isn't about the ERT, that's for different areas of the forums. So as expected, that side of the argument did go no where as it isn't the reason of the complaint. The complain is about your interactions with Amaya Stone. How you want to handle the situation is up to you, within confines of the rules. I disagree that the rifle argument is null, because you're a perceived threat. If you're holding a weapon in a state which permits you to immediately fire, then it's only fair for people to assume you're a threat. You made the decision to run after them and they reacted. If you expect an ERT to drop their weapon in this situation, then that's dumb as heck Nothing of that nature was even said. As said above, when a character presents themselves as a possible danger, in this card an emergency response member armed with a hardsuit and weaponry, then perhaps consider how others would react? If you'd like us to brush off on how else you could've handled it, then I'll be happy to, since I sense the thought that there was only one course of action, which is the one you took. 1- If you wanted to emphasize dialogue, the station in every department has request consoles which you as an ERT should be able to broadcast an announcement. Assuming that doesn't work, there are command consoles around the station which you could also use. 2- The usage of cover prior to the immediate chase, putting yourself in a safe position to still speak to them. 3- Waiting for your team to arrive, as ERT are a team rather than lone operatives. Once they arrive, a plan or a more safer course of action could be made. 4- Consider the possibility they are luring you and instead flank/intercept them elsewhere. Few options that come to mind. So no, you don't need to drop your gun, you're just required to think given the context of the situation what could happen and adapt. Going after someone whom you made a general announcement to surrender and then called out personally, where in both cases they did not comply, you still chose to go after them alone, while visibly a threat to them. I'm not really interested in a back and forth argument here so unless further information is brought, I'll archive this tomorrow. Bottom line is, you committed to an action, the antagonist reacted, that's about it. If you want to discuss the presence of ERT on the station, then the Character/Player complaints isn't the place.
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