[Dismissed] Remove Secret Extended

[BurgerBB]

This has been done before and it needs to be done on a yearly basis if not a monthly one. 

Remove. Secret. Extended.

Secret extended always results in the following:

- Security players patrol the halls endlessly for 2 hours. They seldom RP because they fear that starting RP will result in it being ruined by some shitter antag. They don't want to be responsible/berated by other crewmembers for not being active while there is an emergency.

- Medical players watch the suit sensors monitor endlessly for 2 hours. They seldom RP because they fear that starting RP or leaving medical will result in a medical emergency caused by some shitter antag. They don't want to be held responsible/berated by other crewmembers for not being active while there is an emergency.

- Engineering players sit at the desk or endlessly pursue projects for 2 hours.They seldom RP because they fear that starting RP will result in it being ruined by some shitter antag. At this point when literally nothing is happening, they alt-tab and do other things because they already did anything engineering can do in a round.

- Science players do science to its maximum and then pursue projects for 2 hours. They seldom RP because they fear that starting RP will result in it being ruined by some shitter antag.

- Cargo players are cargo players and are used to literally nothing happening in their department.

- Civilian players RP because they have no responsibilities.

This isn't good game design. When most of your players are bored as fuck because nothing is happening, this isn't good game design. I legitimately do not give a shit if you say "This is an HRP server.", the fact of the matter is that this is an HRP server powered by unique and interesting conflict. 3 out of 5 departments (Security, Medical, Engineering) are designed around there being conflict, and 2 out of 5 of those departments (Cargo, Service) are designed to assist those departments.

If you look at the number of people who currently play and the occupations they choose, you'll notice that almost always one of two departments dominate the station:

Security

Civilian (Service/Supply)

Security is chosen the most because they receive the most conflict out of all of the roles. They interact with the antags the most. They get to do the most things and have the most impact on a round. Civilian is chosen the most because they get the most amount of RP from themselves in the round as they have no responsibilities or obligation to interact with the antags. This seems like a no-brainer where people desire to choose the jobs with the most conflict, but to me I see this as a fundamental design flaw.

It is absolutely near impossible to have actual non-conflict based RP sessions without knowing the current gamemode. When you try to do non-conflict based RP in a round, it usually is interrupted or made miniscule compared to the conflict going in on the round. Trust me, I have done this when I used to play Marwani. The only time I could ever get any meaningful character development through, it had to have been voted extended, otherwise it's just dealing with the antagonist or avoiding them.

So if you pick engineering, science, or medical, you are handicapping yourself by "choosing" to risk RP. Almost always these departments are never full. There is always a lack of medical, engineers, or scientists. There is never a lack of security or civilians. Yet, a round cannot function without engineering, science, or medical. If you have no engineering, you have no one to setup the shields or the engine. If you don't have medical, you have no one to treat serious injuries. If you don't have science, you have no one to repair IPCs or provide mining with upgraded tools.

So lets lessen the punishment of choosing these roles by removing secret extended. Lets actually get people to do their jobs and roleplay properly on a gamemode where the objective is to have fun and roleplay. With secret extended, you are literally wasting 2 hours of someone's time because given it's secret, there is going to be antags. Lets actually fucking admit for once that sneaking extended in secret rotation is a band-aid solution for extended to be played more, and not because that's what secret voters want.

Do you know what people do when they want extended? They vote for extended. Did you know that people actually vote for extended? It happens, and it will be voted when people want to play extended. If secret extended is removed, extended won't phase out of existence, but instead, will only be played when people actually want to play extended.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

It sounds like the primary issue is fearing antagonists ruining rp instead of eagerly waiting for antags to drive rp.

[Scheveningen]

I mean, honestly, secret exists so that the game mode that comes up is a surprise. It's not so much that you vote it just for antagonists, considering how for the past 4 years it's always been like this for the sake of surprising people and cutting out the very notion of metagamey behavior from the get-go.

It's necessary to have a default game mode in cases where nobody during secret actually readies up for antagonist.

If it can be made so that it will always roll a game mode if the minimum amount of people ready up for antagonist to start the game mode, it should force any array of game mode with those minimum requirements over extended.

I personally think that is the saner solution than removing extended from secret. I agree that it shouldn't be rolled over other game modes when people readied up for antag, so I personally think that's how it should be.

[DronzTheWolf]

Secret without Extended is no longer a Secret. It becomes Valid. It becomes "We know there is an antag OOCly so we must be prepared." Without the possibility of Extended being there, Secret is no Secret, just Random Antag.

[Carver]

No. It's nice to have a relaxing cooldown round, some of my best rounds in this game were secret extended. If you were to remove secret extended, I would suggest a forced extended every 3rd/4th round if only to offer something relaxing.

Generally I RP the same whether it's extended or not. It isn't until antags actually pop up that this changes. Perhaps encouraging (not via policy or removing modes, just positively encouraging) this method of playing would be a boon as a whole to the RP quality of the server? 

[BurgerBB]

1 minute ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

It sounds like the primary issue is fearing antagonists ruining rp instead of eagerly waiting for antags to drive rp.

It really is but since people don't want to solve this issue, then let's solve issues caused by this issue.

[BurgerBB]

Just now, Carver said:

No. It's nice to have a relaxing cooldown round, some of my best rounds in this game were secret extended. If you were to remove secret extended, I would suggest a forced extended every 3rd/4th round if only to offer something relaxing.

Generally I RP the same whether it's extended or not. It isn't until antags actually pop up that this changes. Perhaps encouraging (not via policy or removing modes, just positively encouraging) this method of playing would be a boon as a whole to the RP quality of the server? 

Then vote extended. Get people to vote extended. If other people want to play extended, then extended will be played.

[Guest Menown]

You shouldn't be playing secret like it's secret. People should play it like it's extended.

If you're treating secret differently from extended, you're trying to validate your fear.

[Scheveningen]

Just now, BurgerBB said:

Then vote extended. Get people to vote extended. If other people want to play extended, then extended will be played.

But by voting secret in this manner, you join the round expecting antagonists and never the chance of it actually being extended (by merit of Check-Round-Info).

Essentially this enables metagamers voting secret just as much as voting a game mode like cult or malfunction, right?

[Carver]

2 minutes ago, Menown said:

You shouldn't be playing secret like it's secret. People should play it like it's extended.

If you're treating secret differently from extended, you're trying to validate your fear.

 

4 minutes ago, DronzTheWolf said:

Secret without Extended is no longer a Secret. It becomes Valid. It becomes "We know there is an antag OOCly so we must be prepared." Without the possibility of Extended being there, Secret is no Secret, just Random Antag.

These two comments more or less sum up my view on this.

[BurgerBB]

Just now, Menown said:

You shouldn't be playing secret like it's secret. People should play it like it's extended.

If you're treating secret differently from extended, you're trying to validate your fear.

You're lying to yourself if you don't think that people don't treat secret differently from secret.

You're lying to god if you think that there is something wrong with this behavior especially given the shit antags pull.

 

It is very obvious that secret extended rounds are played differently then voted extended rounds. On secret extended no one talks, nothing happens, everyone sits at their post. No one RPs except for civilians.

Voted extended, everyone has fun. Everyone RPs, everyone hangs out with each other, people socialize, people play realistically.

[Guest Menown]

1 minute ago, BurgerBB said:

You're lying to yourself if you don't think that people don't treat secret differently from secret.

You're lying to god if you think that there is something wrong with this behavior especially given the shit antags pull.

 

It is very obvious that secret extended rounds are played differently then voted extended rounds. On secret extended no one talks, nothing happens, everyone sits at their post. No one RPs except for civilians.

Voted extended, everyone has fun. Everyone RPs, everyone hangs out with each other, people socialize, people play realistically.

I didn't say people don't treat it differently. I said they shouldn't, but they do. People already metagame regardless. This is a metagame problem, not a secret-extended problem.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Menown

[BurgerBB]

3 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

But by voting secret in this manner, you join the round expecting antagonists and never the chance of it actually being extended (by merit of Check-Round-Info).

Essentially this enables metagamers voting secret just as much as voting a game mode like cult or malfunction, right?

Voting secret without extended in rotation will be like voting secret with extended in rotation. People will still behave the same way because even with extended in rotation, they still expect an antag to ruin everything.

[Carver]

Just now, BurgerBB said:

Voting secret without extended in rotation will be like voting secret with extended in rotation. People will still behave the same way because even with extended in rotation, they still expect an antag to ruin everything.

Making changes based around expecting the worst of people is absolutely the wrong way to develop anything.

[Guest Menown]

6 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

You're lying to god if you think that there is something wrong with this behavior especially given the shit antags pull.

Meant to touch on this. Yes, there is something wrong with metagaming. Our rules say as such, so sorry for lying to you, God.

[BurgerBB]

Just now, Menown said:

Meant to touch on this. Yes, there is something wrong with metagaming. Our rules say as such, so sorry for lying to you, God.

Just because it's against the rules, doesn't mean it's bad.

Everyone metagames. Absolutely fucking everyone metagames the roundtype and if people say they don't, they're lying. It would be absolutely stupid of you, as a serious roleplayer, not to metagame because it means that if you treat it like an extended round like a good little angel you are, chances are it will be interrupted by antags or overshadowed and now you'll have to go through the very annoying process of determining what was canon and what wasn't canon, if anything.

I've tried not to metagame before and it was very unfun. One of my character's mother died, however the moment was ruined when a shitter cuban pete decided to bomb the entirety of the station and the emergency shuttle was called 30 minutes in. Upon reflection, this is hilarious as shit, but as someone who cared about roleplay at that time it was absolutely annoying it that interrupting the conflict I created in the round and did not build upon it.

[Guest Menown]

I'm sorry that happened, but it doesn't change that shit happens. Would you rather people never roleplay anything during non-extended for fears that anything would happen, because that seems like that's what you're trying to enforce here.

[BurgerBB]

Just now, Menown said:

I'm sorry that happened, but it doesn't change that shit happens. Would you rather people never roleplay anything during non-extended for fears that anything would happen, because that seems like that's what you're trying to enforce here.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here because that won't happen. People roleplay during secret, however they roleplay differently. They roleplay with antags in mind, they roleplay with the conflict in mind, they expect the conflict and build the roleplay around it, but it never happens so their roleplay is ruined.

Again, people still roleplay during secret. They just roleplay differently and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

[Carver]

1 minute ago, BurgerBB said:

Everyone metagames. Absolutely fucking everyone metagames the roundtype and if people say they don't, they're lying. It would be absolutely stupid of you, as a serious roleplayer, not to metagame because it means that if you treat it like an extended round like a good little angel you are, chances are it will be interrupted by antags or overshadowed and now you'll have to go through the very annoying process of determining what was canon and what wasn't canon, if anything.

Making out what's canon/non-canon isn't as hard as you make it out to be. Even deaths in extended can very easily be said to be non-canon. Generally you can get an easy feel for what interactions are simply standard character to character interactions, and what was directly antag related.

 

2 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

I've tried not to metagame before and it was very unfun. One of my character's mother died, however the moment was ruined when a shitter cuban pete decided to bomb the entirety of the station and the emergency shuttle was called 30 minutes in. Upon reflection, this is hilarious as shit, but as someone who cared about roleplay at that time it was absolutely annoying it that interrupting the conflict I created in the round and did not build upon it.

Then it sounds like you've personally had a bad experience that altered how you see things. With or without secret extended, this exact kind of scenario can and will happen as you've said. By removing the possibility of extended you only further lower the potential of, in such a situation, getting the outcome you would have found desirable (or just preventing it ever happening outright, if you'd only do it on extended, because extended is typically rarely ever voted in).

[UnknownMurder]

This suggestion has been offered over and over and my opinions are this. I agree with this suggestion and I do follow with Burger is saying. Although, I agree for a different reason and from my experience. Roleplay can get boring on an extended round because we are told over and over that antagonists have to create a conflict and drive the roleplay. Should a non-antagonist do so, they could potentially get slapped with self-antag because they tried to make something interesting for the round that was not an extended round. There is no doubt that everyone is completely unaware where there is an extended round or not. I come to Aurora Station for conflict.

Edited December 27, 2018 by UnknownMurder

[Guest Menown]

Okay, to sum up the brunt of this, you want people to be able to RP more, without worrying about extended, a round that enables RP, because the playerbase metagames the round type.

Your method of fixing this is ensuring the most voted round type is solely antagonists, ensuring you never have a round that might enable you to roleplay without concern, unless it's voted (typically only voted for events, or after a hectic round.)

Did I get all that correctly?

[BurgerBB]

Just now, UnknownMurder said:

This suggestion has been offered over and over and my opinions are this. I agree with this suggestion and I do follow with Burger is saying. Although, I agree for a different reason and from my experience. Roleplay can get boring on an extended round because we are told over and over that antagonists have to create a conflict and drive the roleplay. Should a non-antagonist do so, they could potentially get slapped with self-antag because they tried to make something interesting for the round that was not an extended round. There is no doubt that everyone is completely unaware where there is an extended round or not. I come to Aurora Station for conflict.

I think most people come to Aurorastation for conflict for antags. There are several other games out there which contains better and purer RP, however without the conflict of antags.

3 minutes ago, Carver said:

Making out what's canon/non-canon isn't as hard as you make it out to be. Even deaths in extended can very easily be said to be non-canon. Generally you can get an easy feel for what interactions are simply standard character to character interactions, and what was directly antag related.

 

Then it sounds like you've personally had a bad experience that altered how you see things. With or without secret extended, this exact kind of scenario can and will happen as you've said. By removing the possibility of extended you only further lower the potential of, in such a situation, getting the outcome you would have found desirable (or just preventing it ever happening outright, if you'd only do it on extended, because extended is typically rarely ever voted in).

Do not try to dismiss my thought on the issue as a result of a bad experience. I have has several bad experiences, seen several bad experiences, and several months after the fact that it happened and came to the conclusion of "Secret extended is super fucking flawed."

Extended is voted in. It will be voted in more often. Extended rounds that are voted in will be better and enjoyed by all, especially compared to secret extended.

[BurgerBB]

2 minutes ago, Menown said:

Okay, to sum up the brunt of this, you want people to be able to RP more, without worrying about extended, a round that enables RP, because the playerbase metagames the round type.

Your method of fixing this is ensuring the most voted round type is solely antagonists, ensuring you never have a round that might enable you to roleplay without concern, unless it's voted (typically only voted for events, or after a hectic round.)

Did I get all that correctly?

Right. It seems that you're not here to argue. I've stated my points several times throughout the OP, as well as given several replies to you. I have given you enough information on my views to prevent zingers like this.

Edited December 27, 2018 by BurgerBB

[Carver]

2 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

I think most people come to Aurorastation for conflict for antags. There are several other games out there which contains better and purer RP, however without the conflict of antags.

I come for a mixture of both short stories per-round, and overarching stories between rounds. Could not give a rat's ass about conflict if it isn't well-done either way, shitty conflict is often worse than none at all. To mention other games in this regard is to entirely disregard the lore and setting presented here that can be found absolutely nowhere else.

[Guest Menown]

3 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

It seems that you're not here to argue.

I'm not here to argue, you're the one calling me a liar for things I haven't even said, and saying it'd be stupid of me to follow the rules and not metagame. You can't not insult me, for some reason.

I'm trying to defend keeping extended in a round because guess what, I can play the game without metagaming and I do treat every round like it's extended, regardless of whether it is or not. If you're changing your behavior based on the round type you're breaking character, and risking doing shit that could be contrived as non-canon, and doing that you're risking a complaint on your actions, as evident by people willy nilly killing antags or bumrushing them because "oh, it's non-canon because antag."