Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[geeves]

BYOND Key: Geeves
Staff BYOND Key: Garnascus
Game ID: bZQ-bqil

Reason for complaint: While the server was recovering, and people had some trouble connecting, an extended round was voted while there were six people on server. Many people who joined after the round started aggressively voiced their disdain with "three extended rounds in a row", having had two extended rounds before the last round which was AI Malfunction. Garnascus started a vote in answer to these concerns, asking whether he should spice the round up (paraphrased). There were five options, first being "leave it as is", building up to the fourth which was equivalent to "fuck my shit up" (paraphrased), the fifth being 'John Madden'. Seven people voted for "Leave it as is", while eight voted for the "fuck my shit up" vote. I would be fine if democracy prevailed here and we got our shit fucked up, but Garn said that since seven people voted for "leave it as is", he'd add something small. Everyone was fine with this, and then we got a Wish Granter event. Which spawned and cultified (walls and floors) the entire bar, placing four pylons near the corners of it. This is pretty shitty for a HRP server, the pylons have a shitton of range and shot at people just walking past the bar. The cultification of the bar also caused air pressure to get absolutely fucked. Please don't spawn a Wish Granter with four pylons in the centre of an RP environment if you're adding something "small". A few people cryod because of this turnout, people who were just looking for an extended round, with a little something mixed in.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks: Pylons are bad for events, their range is so huge, and they fire super quickly, for a lot of burns. If there's a way of VE'ing them to have less range and fire less quickly, that'd be fine too. Oh, by the way, no hard feelings, I still love you, Garn. ❤️

[Skull132]

27 minutes ago, geeves said:

The cultification of the bar also caused air pressure to get absolutely fucked.

Gonna correct you on this one. Air pressure got fucked because engineers decided to tear a hole into the side of the station using an emitter. Literally saw it happen meself. While security was assailing the subject initially, the HoP was standing right next to them in her dress. Which is sort of hard to do without atmosphere.

30 minutes ago, geeves said:

Please don't spawn a Wish Granter with four pylons in the centre of an RP environment if you're adding something "small".

Going to also have to debate you on this one. The event was small in that no interaction was urgently forced upon the crew. The "hostile" forces were not outwardly aggressive, perhaps until the crew tried to do shit (assault it) and Garn gained some followers. (I stopped tracking towards the latter end of the round, but up until he had gained 2 followers, he was literally just sitting in his hole.) Of further note is the fact that "small" is literally subjective. And in the grand scheme of things, what Garn did was relatively small.

I also do not see what's shitty about this event for an HRP server? You were presented with a scenario. You had no guidelines on how to solve the matter, all options were open to you. For most of the round though, the crew simply attempted to assail the thing. Sooo I dunno, what would have made it a good event for HRP?

[geeves]

1 minute ago, Skull132 said:

Gonna correct you on this one. Air pressure got fucked because engineers decided to tear a hole into the side of the station using an emitter. Literally saw it happen meself. While security was assailing the subject initially, the HoP was standing right next to them in her dress. Which is sort of hard to do without atmosphere.

Yeah, there was an initial loss of pressure, causing the hallway to drop to around 70 kPa, which is still fine, and THEN it got breached by an emitter.

3 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

Going to also have to debate you on this one. The event was small in that no interaction was urgently forced upon the crew. The "hostile" forces were not outwardly aggressive, perhaps until the crew tried to do shit (assault it) and Garn gained some followers. (I stopped tracking towards the latter end of the round, but up until he had gained 2 followers, he was literally just sitting in his hole.) Of further note is the fact that "small" is literally subjective. And in the grand scheme of things, what Garn did was relatively small.

Getting shot up by an unknown entity that just "appears" in your bar is pretty urgently forced upon you. And fair enough on the subjectivity.

4 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

I also do not see what's shitty about this event for an HRP server? You were presented with a scenario. You had no guidelines on how to solve the matter, all options were open to you. For most of the round though, the crew simply attempted to assail the thing. Sooo I dunno, what would have made it a good event for HRP?

As it was originally an extended round, anything like giving two people traitor with benign objectives that cause interaction with crew would have been fine. Just slam dunking a Wish Granter with rapid-fire-beyond-screen-range pylons in the middle of the bar is not the way to do it. I think it would have been better were the pylons not there, and you had to do some sort of riddle to get to said Wish Granter. Just my two cents.

[Skull132]

Then your point about air pressure getting "absolutely fucked" is either invalid, or unintended by Garn. Which makes it largely irrelevant, IMO.

The rest of your complaint is subject to individual interpretation of what a "small" event is. Considering that it wasn't anything major that aggressively saught out the station or some such, I would agree with Garn's decision that this is a smol event.

One minor point remains, though, this:

3 hours ago, geeves said:

This is pretty shitty for a HRP server, the pylons have a shitton of range and shot at people just walking past the bar.

It has yet to be explained how any of this is "pretty shitty for a HRP server" and whether this breaks any rules or guidelines. Would you be able to do so?

[geeves]

1 hour ago, Skull132 said:

The rest of your complaint is subject to individual interpretation of what a "small" event is. Considering that it wasn't anything major that aggressively saught out the station or some such, I would agree with Garn's decision that this is a smol event.

How does an entire cult room being placed inside the bar, accompanied by people getting shot, accompanied by shutters going down in the area, count as "isn't anything major"? It interfered with a lot of the southern side of the station's jobs, something like that doesn't seem like something "small" you add to an extended round.

1 hour ago, Skull132 said:

It has yet to be explained how any of this is "pretty shitty for a HRP server" and whether this breaks any rules or guidelines. Would you be able to do so?

Getting shot by pylons accompanied by a skeleton and two juggernauts just ushering you in doesn't add anything to the experience. While I could have had a nice relaxing round RPing with some friends, you instead get a round that's completely overridden by all the events occurring in the bar.Insert other media

I just wanted an extended round, and I few people I've talked to feels the same way. Just smashing weird shit that does damage into an extended round isn't a fun experience. Hell, even a peacewiz would have been better. At least keep it a little extended, but toss in some fun for security. (I think they're the ones who wanted the 'spice' added the most, anyway.)

 

EDIT:

1 hour ago, Skull132 said:

Then your point about air pressure getting "absolutely fucked" is either invalid, or unintended by Garn. Which makes it largely irrelevant, IMO.

Unintended or not, it still happened. I don't want a punishment dished out, that'd be silly. I just want more consideration for all the players playing.

Edited April 19, 2019 by geeves
added air pressure blurb + 'punishment'

[Skull132]

39 minutes ago, geeves said:

How does an entire cult room being placed inside the bar, accompanied by people getting shot, accompanied by shutters going down in the area, count as "isn't anything major"? It interfered with a lot of the southern side of the station's jobs, something like that doesn't seem like something "small" you add to an extended round.

As already noted, my bar for "anything major" is anything that pursues the station actively. This was not it, and it was quite contained.

50 minutes ago, geeves said:

Getting shot by pylons accompanied by a skeleton and two juggernauts just ushering you in doesn't add anything to the experience. While I could have had a nice relaxing round RPing with some friends, you instead get a round that's completely overridden by all the events occurring in the bar.

I just wanted an extended round, and I few people I've talked to feels the same way. Just smashing weird shit that does damage into an extended round isn't a fun experience. Hell, even a peacewiz would have been better. At least keep it a little extended, but toss in some fun for security. (I think they're the ones who wanted the 'spice' added the most, anyway.)

The crew had the option of interacting with the forces in the bar in other capacity. How the situation was approached was largely left up to the crew. Peacewiz would have been as eventful as this event, minus the fact that one wouldn't hurt you while the other could and did. Of note is also the fact that "My intentions this round were overwritten by x events!" is not a valid cause for complaint, unless done in horrible taste by an admin (adminbus). Any roleplay game like this is about collaborative story telling, which means you have to be open to events outside of your control coming to fuck up your day and your intentions.

Had he made a traitor or two, as per your intentions, would you also have lodged a complaint if said traitors would have managed to pull off something grand? Like blow a chunk of the station out into space or create a murder mystery plot?

[geeves]

2 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

The crew had the option of interacting with the forces in the bar in other capacity. How the situation was approached was largely left up to the crew.

What do you do besides having Security bumrush the pylons, or toxins blow it to shreds? What do the civilian crewmembers do, for instance, if there were a bartender or kitchen staff, librarian or janitor?

4 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

Had he made a traitor or two, as per your intentions, would you also have lodged a complaint if said traitors would have managed to pull off something grand? Like blow a chunk of the station out into space or create a murder mystery plot?

I would, because, 'as per my intentions', I said: 'anything like giving two people traitor with benign objectives that cause interaction with crew would have been fine' Had they had those objectives, and facilitated interesting roleplay for those who chose to interact with them, then sure. That'd be grand.

[Skull132]

10 minutes ago, geeves said:

18 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

Had he made a traitor or two, as per your intentions, would you also have lodged a complaint if said traitors would have managed to pull off something grand? Like blow a chunk of the station out into space or create a murder mystery plot?

 I would, because, 'as per my intentions', I said: 'anything like giving two people traitor with benign objectives that cause interaction with crew would have been fine' Had they had those objectives, and facilitated interesting roleplay for those who chose to interact with them, then sure. That'd be grand.

I messed up a phrase there. But regardless, this: "for those who chose to interact with them," is not really how the game works. What point is there in adding an antag or an actor, even with benign objectives, if people are free to ignore them? What point is there to even being such an antag/actor?

36 minutes ago, geeves said:

What do you do besides having Security bumrush the pylons, or toxins blow it to shreds? What do the civilian crewmembers do, for instance, if there were a bartender or kitchen staff, librarian or janitor?

The list roughly begins with communication and ends wherever. Though the round did eventually evolve a bit once the pylons were taken out, and people actually got into the antechamber.

[geeves]

Just now, Skull132 said:

What point is there to even being such an antag/actor?

Because then you're adding something small to spice up an extended round. Security can actually have something to do then.

1 minute ago, Skull132 said:

The list roughly begins with communication and ends wherever. Though the round did eventually evolve a bit once the pylons were taken out, and people actually got into the antechamber. 

Watcha mean with that first bit? Not tryna be snarky, I just don't understand. And yeah, the round did pick up once the pylons were taken out. Civilian staff flooded in to interact. Hence my point about the pylons.

[Skull132]

1 minute ago, geeves said:

Watcha mean with that first bit? Not tryna be snarky, I just don't understand.

Attempts at communication, appeasement, inspection could have been made. Instead of letting sec and engineering attack it. Both eventualities are fine, though.

[geeves]

1 minute ago, Skull132 said:

Attempts at communication, appeasement, inspection could have been made. Instead of letting sec and engineering attack it. Both eventualities are fine, though.

Who would be handling the communication? The aforementioned list? No, it'd probably still be Security. Inspection too. Appeasement I can kinda get, but then again. It's the pylons that were getting in the way. Communication via radio is really, really, really iffy. It becomes a slugfest quickly.

[Skull132]

10 minutes ago, geeves said:

Who would be handling the communication? The aforementioned list? No, it'd probably still be Security. Inspection too. Appeasement I can kinda get, but then again. It's the pylons that were getting in the way. Communication via radio is really, really, really iffy. It becomes a slugfest quickly.

Security would be around to shut down shit regardless. Peace wiz? Need to guard that intruder. Antag with benign objectives? Probably still broke a reg. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. As for the pylons, Garn could have temporarily deleted them had he felt like it was warranted.

[geeves]

1 minute ago, Skull132 said:

Security would be around to shut down shit regardless. Peace wiz? Need to guard that intruder. Antag with benign objectives? Probably still broke a reg. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. As for the pylons, Garn could have temporarily deleted them had he felt like it was warranted.

Fair enough. The other two options would have given more roleplaying than plopping what's effectively a vault in the centre of the bar. As for the pylons, the round only started evolving when the pylons were destroyed, as per your own words. Far as I know and have gathered, the pylons was simply the largest issue. They were overbearing for a "small" inclusion. It stretched the entire thing out till the very end of the round, leaving the good bits to the end, where it cannot be utilized.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Hi

I was not present for any of this, but from my understanding, Garn ran a vote to spice up the round. The vote went through and he spiced up the round. You're saying that he went against his word of doing something small, right? Coming from someone who runs events often, and runs them on a pretty large scale, Garns event was indeed small. Perhaps the pylons were a little too much, perhaps not. A wishing stone is a very small event compared to the ones that myself, Alb and other admins run. 

Perhaps you can argue that this wasn't an event, but just some extra spice for the round. I usually throw in some antags and a little story to spice up the round, which usually turns out to be much larger than what Garn had done here. 

So, that being said.. What exactly is the point of this complaint? What are you complaining about? It's not exactly clear.


Edit: I don't want to come off as hostile or rude, I just don't understand what you're complaining about.

Edited April 19, 2019 by ReadThisNamePlz

[geeves]

1 minute ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

Hi

hallo

2 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

Perhaps the pylons were a little too much, perhaps not.

They were the main problem. Pretty much.

3 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

So, that being said.. What exactly is the point of this complaint? What are you complaining about? It's not exactly clear.

As far as I know, the vote was to spice up the extended round, amidst complaints from other players about it being extended. The way the event was set up, it strayed away both from being extended, and forwarding RP besides: "ow fuck the pylon shot me from outside the screen's range" and "ok we gotta attack that thing". However, once the pylons were removed, the Wishgranter actually was pretty alright.

I'd like this complaint to just prevent rounds from being 'spiced' up in this manner. One of the kitchen staff players went to cryo because the proximity of the pylons from the bar kept pretty much everyone away from them. It was pretty annoying. I suppose (and I'm really, really bad at putting my complaints into words) if I had to condense the complaint into one sentence-ish, it'd be to make sure the extended round you're spicing up is balanced in a way that won't drive people who were actually there for extended away. The pylons were the worst offender here, and it'd be best to think more carefully about where they are used in the future.

Is anyone else tired of reading the word pylon yet? Yeesh.

[Skull132]

oh, I was still writing here apparently. Welp.

1 minute ago, geeves said:

make sure the extended round you're spicing up is balanced in a way that won't drive people who were actually there for extended away.

Unfortunately, all of us like different things and so forth. Every event will be hit-or-miss, and  If you paid attention to the round end OOC, then there were definitely people who also enjoyed the round! And possibly those people also voted for extended.

In my opinion, the event was small enough to be in line with what was promised. And wasn't somehow detrimental to the HRP that was to be had. Sure, it could have gone better, but no rules nor guidelines were broken that I can identify, and beyond feedback on how to potentially handle things better, I don't really see anything else in this thread that's actionable. And as already pointed out, attacking it was not your only way of dealing with the matter. It was simply the station's decision to.

[Garnascus]

Sorry after reading this complaint i do not consider there to be anything valid in it and i will explain why. 

1. This is what i consider something small. I originally planned for something much much more chaotic but considering the vote split i decided for more of a balance. In this case i chose to present the crew with a scenario and see what they do to try to solve it. Said scenario was explicitly contained in one single area. No threats sought you out. The only danger posed to you was the turrets. Very few people attempted to talk to me so i did not really get to use any other plans i had. That was fine of course. A chef took out one turret with a ripley and security eventually learned that lasers are not very effective on them. 

2. There is a certain formula that accompanies a sizable portion of all complaints. First a person creates their own definition of what "heavy roleplay" means. Then the player checks events on station against this definition. Finally the player makes a complaint saying "X is not good for heavy roleplay". The issues being we have jumped ahead four million light years. I reject your initial premise of heavy roleplay that is inconsistent with the event i did. 

3. The initial decompression was caused by build mode memes. I intended to replace a door and ended up deleting a wall. This of course put a hole in the station which sucked out all the air. It took me maybe two minutes to patch the hole and then replace the air with magic admin commands. Any and all decompression after that was the fault of whoever set up the emitters. 

 

 

[geeves]

8 hours ago, Skull132 said:

I don't really see anything else in this thread that's actionable. 

Why does it have to be actionable? Just use this complaint as a footnote to remember in the future.

8 hours ago, Skull132 said:

And as already pointed out, attacking it was not your only way of dealing with the matter. It was simply the station's decision to.

How else?

7 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Sorry after reading this complaint i do not consider there to be anything valid in it and i will explain why. 

Thanks. Literally nothing valid.

7 hours ago, Garnascus said:

The only danger posed to you was the turrets. 

The turrets were the biggest issue. There has to be a better way to keep security entertained than adding bullshit pylons.

7 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Very few people attempted to talk to me so i did not really get to use any other plans i had.

1) It is difficult to talk while manoevering to not get shot by pylons.

2) Why would you talk with someone that has turrets that are actively shooting at you, after you requested for them to turn them off?

7 hours ago, Garnascus said:

2. There is a certain formula that accompanies a sizable portion of all complaints. First a person creates their own definition of what "heavy roleplay" means. Then the player checks events on station against this definition. Finally the player makes a complaint saying "X is not good for heavy roleplay". The issues being we have jumped ahead four million light years. I reject your initial premise of heavy roleplay that is inconsistent with the event i did.

The term HRP is subjective, got it, I agree with you. It still doesn't seem very HRP to me, but alright.

7 hours ago, Garnascus said:

3. The initial decompression was caused by build mode memes. I intended to replace a door and ended up deleting a wall. This of course put a hole in the station which sucked out all the air. It took me maybe two minutes to patch the hole and then replace the air with magic admin commands. Any and all decompression after that was the fault of whoever set up the emitters. 

Yeah, this is fine, it wasn't a major component, just that having the shutters go down made the arrival of said cult block made it seem even more worse than it was. No biggie, accidents happen.

8 hours ago, Skull132 said:

If you paid attention to the round end OOC, then there were definitely people who also enjoyed the round! And possibly those people also voted for extended.

Would it be possible for those who did not enjoy it to raise their opinion? Can we dissect why people enjoyed it? Was it the Wishgranter, Guardian, the two juggernauts maybe? Or was it the four pylons? I'm genuinely curious.

[Garnascus]

8 minutes ago, geeves said:

1) It is difficult to talk while manoevering to not get shot by pylons.

2) Why would you talk with someone that has turrets that are actively shooting at you, after you requested for them to turn them off?

1) You managed it pretty well. You even had time to tell me in LOOC "this even sucks never do it again"

2) Maybe because i told you i cannot turn them off and that im not controlling them. You can believe whatever you want IC. I was fine with you guys just trying to kill the turrets. I am very surprised nobody tried to kill me. 

12 minutes ago, geeves said:

The turrets were the biggest issue. There has to be a better way to keep security entertained than adding bullshit pylons.

Probably but i wanted to use turrets and i am pleased with how the event went. 

 

[geeves]

7 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

1) You managed it pretty well. You even had time to tell me in LOOC "this even sucks never do it again"

Goes through walls.

7 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

2) Maybe because i told you i cannot turn them off and that im not controlling them. You can believe whatever you want IC. I was fine with you guys just trying to kill the turrets. I am very surprised nobody tried to kill me.

Why would an invader arrive with turrets that they can't turn off? Why would you speak to someone that illegally beamed into your station with turrets that are actively shooting at you that they cannot turn off?

8 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Probably but i wanted to use turrets and i am pleased with how the event went.

Fantastic, so we agree.

[Garnascus]

2 minutes ago, geeves said:

Why would an invader arrive with turrets that they can't turn off? Why would you speak to someone that illegally beamed into your station with turrets that are actively shooting at you that they cannot turn off?

Plenty of people did. You should ask them. 

 

3 minutes ago, geeves said:

Fantastic, so we agree.

No we do not......

[geeves]

1 minute ago, Garnascus said:

Plenty of people did. You should ask them.

If they want, they can contact me. I'm open to having my opinion changed if people genuinely enjoyed it.

1 minute ago, Garnascus said:

No we do not......

What was that about 'Probably' then? I think the event would have been alright, if there were no pylons. Hell, maybe if there were like.. nerfed versions of them, it'd be pretty a'ight too.

[Garnascus]

You said that there is probably a better way to keep security entertained. I said that there probably is because..... there is probably always a better way. 

[geeves]

1 minute ago, Garnascus said:

You said that there is probably a better way to keep security entertained. I said that there probably is because..... there is probably always a better way. 

Quote the specific text, you monster.? We still agree then, though.

[Garnascus]

Yeah but the difference is when i say "there is probably a better way" my answer would be "more turrets" or "more things to fight". I feel like you think it would be mean scrapping the turrets altogether when i liked what they did. The turrets where killed very easily once they learned that ballistics where better.