[Resolved] Player Complaint - Jesse Armstrong

[Bath Salts Addict]

BYOND Key: Bath Salts Addict
Game ID: the round prior to b2H-bb70 (or b2H-bb7O? BYOND font is fucky)
Player Byond Key/Character name: Spider4062 (Jesse Armstrong)
Staff involved: None.
Reason for complaint: 
To summarize, the primary reason for this complaint is that throughout a rather hectic autotraitor round, Jesse Armstrong knowingly and purposefully kept his entire team in the dark in regards to a pair of malfunctioning AIs and only diverged information with a roboticist, in which he already had an established IC relationship of sorts with and a conflict of interest as he adamantly defended her when reasonable suspicion arose that she may have had a hand in the AI malfunctioning and the creation of an alternate rogue AI. His reasoning for doing so was that, as one security officer turned out to be a traitor and was subsequently eradicated by the rest of the security team, the rest of the team simply could not be trusted and despite the majority of the team including the acting Captain wanting to see the carded AI's laws the clear conflict of interest that arose, he ignored them.

This isn't anything a reasonable head of staff would do in any situation. Even if one subordinate was rogue, suddenly turning around and depriving the rest of necessary information to perform their jobs to a suitable standard because they "can't be trusted" but some random roboticist that you've spent the majority of the round schmoozing in your office while the station went to hell is not. A HoS shouldn't and wouldn't deny the investigation team the opportunity to examine evidence and piece together what's going on, nor should he refuse to properly inform officers of what's going on and who the baddies are because he doesn't trust them.

Not-so-summary summary out of the way, the details...

It became apparent that someone in science had created a second AI that was bound via laws to the original AI that was also malfunctioning. The CSI and I actually managed to find out where the second AI's core was and went to go do something about it. We found a roboticist, Gwendolyn Miller, and informed her of the situation and where the AI was, and she opened/hacked the way to it. Attempts to properly question it were failed when Miller just up and carded it and we turned to leave. Out of curiosity at what the AI's laws stated, I asked to see the card but was ignored. Eventually my second request was danced around serreptitiously, which aroused my suspicion. The original suspect was a scientist, but this roboticist was refusing to let me see the AI's laws, which made me wonder if there was something she didn't want me to see. However, considering the fact that Miller had been nothing but helpful thus far and a rogue officer had just gone and gunned down the bartender in plain view of everyone, I left her to go deal with the more pressing matter.

After dealing with that and working through a telecomms outage, I informed the rest of security that Miller was acting suspicious and had the carded AI. Arthur Sommer, Ezmerelda Coetzee and Vincent Gallardi (I butchered those names) agreed with my assessment and went to go get the intellicard from her - by force, if necessary. I confront her in the AI core and learn that she gave the intellicard, along with the original AI's intellicard, to Armstrong. Swell! Armstrong confirms and I ask to see the laws, to which he refuses. Strange... At this point I begin thinking that for whatever reason Armstrong is keeping Miller's secret if she had done something. This would make sense, as he spent the majority of the round schmoozing with her in his tinted office while he delayed speaking to crew that came to the lobby to speak to him about urgent matters. I pointed out the conflict of interest, to which he simply stated that his implant "forbade" him from letting me see the AI laws. From an OOC perspective, that is absolutely retarded. The loyalty implant isn't a brainwashing chip that makes you devoid of reason or logic. From an IC perspective, that is highly questionable, as a lot of things can be justified by an implanted person with enough mental gymnastics.

Naturally, this just raised suspicions further.

I informed the rest of security about the conflict of interest and they agreed. Even the acting Captain, Aez Goldhorn, agreed that refusing to let anyone see the AIs was plain dumb. What ensued was a lengthy argument in which Armstrong justified his actions by saying that Miller was the "only person he could trust" and three members of his own team and a fellow head of staff were telling him that he was being stupid went unheard. His side of the argument circled between "I don't TRUST anyone!", "Loyalty implant!" and "I am your boss!" while we tried to painstakingly inform of our thought process and why there was a clear conflict of interest. He only gave in when security had enough and informed him that they were willing to take the cards by force if they absolutely needed to, and showed the acting Captain (ONLY the acting Captain, he specified, and straight up told him that if he damaged the AIs that he would "break him"). Armstrong had it in his head that everyone aside from him and Miller were out to wipe the AIs for whatever reason. This lack of trust was apparently justified because one rogue officer who had nothing to do with the AIs went hostile, thus making the rest of Command and Security inherently untrustworthy.

I really hope I don't need to outline how shitty this is from an OOC perspective and unreasonable behavior from a head of staff on an IC one. A head of staff should have the sense to delegate and let the rest of security do their jobs and keep them properly informed and in touch. One rogue subordinate should not effect that.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation?  I made an adminhelp but no one took the ticket.
Approximate Date/Time: 11:40 PM to 12:00 AM GMT -6

Edited August 12, 2019 by Bath Salts Addict

[Spider]

1 hour ago, Bath Salts Addict said:

To summarize, the primary reason for this complaint is that throughout a rather hectic autotraitor round, Jesse Armstrong knowingly and purposefully kept his entire team in the dark in regards to a pair of malfunctioning AIs and only diverged information with a roboticist, in which he already had an established IC relationship of sorts with and a conflict of interest as he adamantly defended her when reasonable suspicion arose that she may have had a hand in the AI malfunctioning and the creation of an alternate rogue AI. His reasoning for doing so was that, as one security officer turned out to be a traitor and was subsequently eradicated by the rest of the security team, the rest of the team simply could not be trusted and despite the majority of the team including the acting Captain wanting to see the carded AI's laws the clear conflict of interest that arose, he ignored them.

I don't think I was keeping the security team in the dark. Given that comms was taken down for a good part of the shift I was still trying to actively communicate over a stationbounced radio. There was evidence to suggest that the AI was not altered by Miller as confirmed by the forensic technician. The law that made the AI was told to the Captain and over sec comms and it had done nothing to implicate any characters. The only evidence was from forensics. I was then told that Noir had an unusual fascination for the AI. Given that we had subversive elements in the security team, and HoP himself who admitted to being one that I felt that it would have not been safe to hand over the carded AI to someone not implanted. The Captain, who was the CE, appointed themselves illegally by breaking into the Captains office and did not consult a decision from either of the heads of staff. This is why I was also skeptical to hand the AI over.

1 hour ago, Bath Salts Addict said:

It became apparent that someone in science had created a second AI that was bound via laws to the original AI that was also malfunctioning. The CSI and I actually managed to find out where the second AI's core was and went to go do something about it. We found a roboticist, Gwendolyn Miller, and informed her of the situation and where the AI was, and she opened/hacked the way to it. Attempts to properly question it were failed when Miller just up and carded it and we turned to leave. Out of curiosity at what the AI's laws stated, I asked to see the card but was ignored. Eventually my second request was danced around serreptitiously, which aroused my suspicion. The original suspect was a scientist, but this roboticist was refusing to let me see the AI's laws, which made me wonder if there was something she didn't want me to see. However, considering the fact that Miller had been nothing but helpful thus far and a rogue officer had just gone and gunned down the bartender in plain view of everyone, I left her to go deal with the more pressing matter.

You see, now you did not tell me that this had happened. You simply told me that the AI was carded and not that the roboticist jumped to card it, were that the case I would've acted differently. When I was told about the AI in Xenoarch I had gotten the intellicard myself and was not aware that they had one. I only denied Noir's request to take the AI because I was told they had some odd reason for wanting it, and given the hostile elements in security, I felt it was safest to keep the card with myself. If I were to state its laws, which was already done, you would not have believed me and still would have pressed to take the AI regardless. I only learnt about the AI being found in xenoarch becauser Miller had informed me, you did not say anything over the station bounced frequency which, by keeping me out of the loop, only made this whole ordeal more worrying.

1 hour ago, Bath Salts Addict said:

At this point I begin thinking that for whatever reason Armstrong is keeping Miller's secret if she had done something. I pointed out the conflict of interest, to which he simply stated that his implant "forbade" him from letting me see the AI laws. From an OOC perspective, that is absolutely retarded. The loyalty implant isn't a brainwashing chip that makes you devoid of reason or logic. From an IC perspective, that is highly questionable, as a lot of things can be justified by an implanted person with enough mental gymnastics.

This is a fair point, you were right to suspect such. Though I do feel that the justification of the implant makes sense here. It exists so that I make decisions in the best interest of the company. To hand over two station AI's to a person who I had believed had an unknown interest in the AI, who was in a team with subversive elements, could very much be harmful. It's not brainwashing, or neither was I trying to go for that, I believe my reason for not handing over a highly expensive and valuable piece of equipment to a person who didn't keep me in the loop for a good portion of the shift is justifiable.

1 hour ago, Bath Salts Addict said:

Even the acting Captain, Aez Goldhorn, agreed that refusing to let anyone see the AIs was plain dumb. What ensued was a lengthy argument in which Armstrong justified his actions by saying that Miller was the "only person he could trust" and three members of his own team and a fellow head of staff were telling him that he was being stupid went unheard. His side of the argument circled between "I don't TRUST anyone!", "Loyalty implant!" and "I am your boss!" while we tried to painstakingly inform of our thought process and why there was a clear conflict of interest. He only gave in when security had enough and informed him that they were willing to take the cards by force if they absolutely needed to, and showed the acting Captain (ONLY the acting Captain, he specified, and straight up told him that if he damaged the AIs that he would "break him"). Armstrong had it in his head that everyone aside from him and Miller were out to wipe the AIs for whatever reason. This lack of trust was apparently justified because one rogue officer who had nothing to do with the AIs went hostile, thus making the rest of Command and Security inherently untrustworthy.

As I had said before, the 'captain' appointed themselves without any command input. Over the comms there was talk about the AI being wiped, and that was expected given that it had basically shocked every single door on the station and tried venting it. The belief was if that the station and fabricated AI was handed to someone who I could not reliably trust, it would turn out bad, for myself and the company alike. The threat I made to the acting captain was ehh, admittedly just too far, I had the feeling everyone was out to get my at that stage when Noir had mentioned they would take it by force, so I responded with such threats with my own. On top of that, given the recent Lance events and what had happened to Noir, I also felt that given all that was going on, it wouldn't be wise to hand someone who was suspected of working with the SLF two AI's. That's where the whole 'trust' thing stemmed from.

1 hour ago, Bath Salts Addict said:

 I really hope I don't need to outline how shitty this is from an OOC perspective and unreasonable behavior from a head of staff on an IC one. A head of staff should have the sense to delegate and let the rest of security do their jobs and keep them properly informed and in touch. One rogue subordinate should not effect that.

I was busy for a good portion of the round with Kiva and Miller to retrieve the station AI. The rest of the team were given directives on what to do, and I let them act with a breath of autonomy. I have received feedback before that I am too hands-on as a head of security, so I have been trying to pace myself back and simply give directives and allow the team to act on their own volition. It is unfair to say that I was not keeping the team in touch when I had made a great effort to have everyone carry a station bounced and keep in touch, one of the things I literally state all the time as a head is how communication is imperative to the cohesion of a team. You knew what the AI's laws were, you knew the tasks that I had assigned, yet you didn't want to do any of them and decided to instead try to rouse the HoS because you felt there was a conflict of interest. I do not think that's fair given the circumstances of the round, you're only seeing things from your perspective here.

I do admit, however, that keeping information like the AI from the team to be offputting, especially as a head of staff. Were it any other round I would have obliged and let the team view the laws. I wasn't keeping information for some shitty OOC reason, I was doing it based on the context of what happened during the round and I feel I was justified in that right.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Spider

[Dark1Star]

I'm not going to lie, you seem to be busy with miller ALL the time. Even when you are needed to help-coordinate security. Every 5-10 minutes I see you in robotics. Miller this, Miller that. Code blue? Code Red? just seems like Miller comes first. In fact, just today. You got SIX PEOPLE KILLED. Because you decided, Miller was more important than everyone in robotics. You were literally about to kill your self, because you wanted to save Miller. You LI should have stopped that and gone "She's just a Robotocist, I need to think of the big picture here and do my best to talk it down" Instead you rushed in, swiping and grabbing at Miller. causing her to blow up, then the welder tanks, and then causing everyone else in that room to die.

[Contextual]

31 minutes ago, Dark1Star said:

 In fact, just today. You got SIX PEOPLE KILLED.

As captain of the round you are bringing up, the body count was officially five per medical's count. The hostage, the hostage taker, Armstrong, and two cadets who were nearby observing the exchange.

In regards to the substance of this complaint, I would agree somewhat with the concept that Armstrong lends Miller too much lenience/preference as his partner. Most rounds with the two of them on are entirely colored by this relationship, as a result of the sway they hold on each other and the sway Armstrong holds on the round as a command player. I do not believe this warrants punishment or admonishment, but I do think that Armstrong needs to re-prioritize OOC'ly as a command player, and re-prioritize IC'ly as a loyalty implantee.

In regards to the point raised by Dark1Star, at a certain point, the station and the company must come first. I've seen you, Spider, try and cryo (only to be stopped by IC events) to dodge out of rev-style CC announcements that conflict with your character's conscience. I think, if you're going to be playing a loyalty-implanted role, you need to be ready to swallow whatever moral urge you have and play the corporate-mandated villain, no matter how it tortures your character. Simply put, OOC'ly, the show must go on, and you must consider the effects of your actions on the round as a whole.

Concluding, though, I do really enjoy Jesse Armstrong. He's a great character and usually a stellar HoS. He's just got one hell of an Achilles' heel, that too easily throws him off and distracts him from his duties IC and OOC.

[SatinsPristOTD]

It was five today, but the injuries to the two IPC security members left them unusable until the shuttle ride home. Armstrong rushing in during a bomb threat LITERALLY took out the ENTIRE security force.

However, I'd like to note the situation was ahelped and Spider was spoken to. He's agreed to tone down the "Gwen smoochy smoochy when I'm needed."

I do think you need to RP your loyalty implant a lot better. (Despite me hating the existence of LI's, I still understand they're required.)

You also need to LISTEN more to your captain AND crew during emergencies. I've had you flat out ignore orders from me as Captain because you were busy dealing with Miller and your chair RP. (You failed to change the code at a time when the antag was NOT raging enough to warrant a "I was busy excuse."). You've also failed to listen to me as your CSI when gave important information about a crew member. (this happened today during the round that the entire sec department was put out of commission.)

We just lost Lin because people complained about lack of communication. Please don't let us lose you too.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

Hello, I played Ezelda Coetzee (you were close enough, she just has a weird name) in the aforementioned round. I can confirm Bath Salt Addict's points and label them as valid in my experience. The round was a communication disaster and reminded me of deadpop security in a bad way, as everyone stuck out to do their own thing. Two incidents stick out to me.

1). I arrive on the Aurora as an EPMC security officer about thirty, maybe forty minutes into the round. EPMCs are, to me, pretty professional and expect a lot of of their teams. I didn't expect a personal briefing or anything maybe just a SITREP or something. I got nothing from the head of security even after greeting him in a blandly professional manner. Actually, it seemed nobody had heard from him in a bit and his shaders were down, so I decided to do the reasonable thing and check the camera. He's in there with Miller, again. It's not the first time Armstrong has run off to RP an office relationship, but it came to color the rest of the round for me.

2). About an hour and a half into the round, we get ordered to go to telescience. Another officer and I respond with Armstrong and, after arriving, he says he needs to go get the CE and keeps us on perimeter overwatch. Where we wait. For around a half hour. Without orders. Eventually my fellow officer leaves, comes back after five minutes with updated orders, and we roll out to having no direction outside of maintenance rather than inside.

All in all it just felt like a sloppy round and is probably one of the worst security rounds I have played with a head of security active. Armstrong wasn't listening to his team, was fawning over Miller despite a clear and present danger (and reasonable suspicion that she might have done something, as the other suspect was a Dominian that we joked "probably starts screaming and praying when she sees a cyborg"), and wasn't serving as a departmental leader.

Honestly? It felt like we were all side characters in some kind of Miller-Armstrong romance drama and didn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things. I don't think a head of security, or any departmental head, should give their department that feeling. Armstrong is, in my experience, typically very, very good at departmental coordination - I would argue that he is playing the implant and his relationship to Miller poorly, and that this has shown through in a very bad way in these two rounds.

 

I wasn't in the hostage situation round, so I'll refrain from commenting on it.

[Ornias]

hi i was the captured AI

[Spider]

Hii i want to reply to some points brought up here.

First of all, i’ve thought over the issues brought. I had a chat over on the server with Arrow about this and he brought up how from both and IC and OOC standpoint that what I’m doing is a bit silly and unrealistic in regards to playing a command role. It makes sense, and even I can see after that round that it’s not beneficial to me or anyone else truly.

Truth is I used to involve myself a lot with the security team, though I received some feedback that had made me reconsider my playstyle.

I’ve been trying to cut back and give the team a breath of autonomy, which, I feel, works in /some/ cases. Though in a lot of a rounds where theres not really anything going on I find myself idling at my desk and not really doing much so I was looking for some form of roleplay or interaction whether it be with Miller or not. I can see that I took the feedback the wrong way, and in all honesty, and there’s probably a much better way to go about delegating a team instead of simply giving orders over the radio. I also have misunderstood the role of the loyalty implant, which i’ve read through over again to reassure myself. There's definitely more to the role than barking orders and I realize that shifting away from involving myself with the team is detrimental to people’s roleplay and experience which is something that I truly do not want to do.

I would just like to comment on one little point:

6 hours ago, Contextual said:

I've seen you, Spider, try and cryo (only to be stopped by IC events) to dodge out of rev-style CC announcements that conflict with your character's conscience. I think, if you're going to be playing a loyalty-implanted role, you need to be ready to swallow whatever moral urge you have and play the corporate-mandated villain, no matter how it tortures your character. Simply put, OOC'ly, the show must go on, and you must consider the effects of your actions on the round as a whole.

I’m sorry I found your feedback valuable, really, but I have never cryo’d or tried to cryo out of a round before. The only time I ever have is two times when the round got dragged on and I had work in the morning, and another one for a reason that I could not control. I ahelped before both and it was handled, otherwise i’ve never tried to dodge a round before. Sure maybe I’ve complained in LOOC by saying something like "not this shit again" but I go with the round no matter the predicament brought up. Though I get the point you’re trying to make, I never saw being the head of security as being a villain and the only time the character has been wrought with their conscience was when there was a CC announcement instructing the crew to choose 2 people to be forcefully borgified which I honestly think no one would agree to.

Other than that, yeah, thank you for the comments and i’ll take them to heart next time i’m on the server. Till then, i’ll just leave this thread for an admin ig.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Spider

[Shadow]

Parts of the whitelist team have discussed this internally and we have come to the conclusion that you have taken the criticism aimed at you well and now are trying to improve.

Thus we won't take any action but we will watch you over the course of the next weeks to see if your behaviour improves or it it stays, or perhaps even gets worse.

 

Will be locked and archived in 24 houts unless anyone has any objections.