Remove EMP/rework IPC burn damage

[kyres1]

This suggestion is not very simple, to start off.

As the title suggests this suggestion is about suggesting the following :

1. Remove EMP. Entirely. It serves no purpose and throws a wrench in the lethality of a great many mechanical things.

 - Why? Let's cover the things both weak and strong EMP can do.

Spoiler

   A. Near-instantly (or just instantly, often times) kill all synthetics bar synthetics purpose-built to absorb them (which ALL lack full protection, and are able to be destroyed by a full ion regardless). This includes instant, knock-out stuns towards unprotected synthetics regardless of armor or equipment

   B. Discharge all form of energy-based weapon, including other EMPs (Laughably, the presence of haywire/ion thumper slugs are overlooked here)

   C. Deplete cells in virtually anything, from mechs (which now universally lack EMP protection, even with EMP-resistant armor (which doesn't even work, and never has)) to APCs, to everything inbetween.

   D. Remotely interact with doors, shocking/lifting restrictions/bolting them, and breaking many other machines with emp vulnerability.

   E. Distribute this damage (which, regardless of weak/strong differences, applies full depletion to energy weapons) in a giant AOE that ranges from 3x3, to 7x7 depending on the weapon used.

This is kind of ridiculous. It basically means that, in the context of one side having EMPs, they win. In the context of both having EMPs, whoever fires first wins. In the context of neither, things are actually interesting and varied because your gear matters.

 

2. Remove laser damage from IPCs. Make lasers apply heat to IPCs. Make IPCs gain heat by movement in general, not just toggling run. Make IPCs dissipate heat faster when resting. Thus, lasers immobilize an IPC by forcing them to overheat. This makes lasers very viable as disables in place of instant kills/EMP.

- Why? You need some counter to IPCs without EMP. This is a given. So, make lasers have more dangerous effects that aren't akin to the EMP effects.

3. adjust brute resists of IPCs accordingly, either raise or lower it depending on combat viability of IPCs.

- Why? Well, they don't feel pain, still. This permits them to shrug off some ridiculous brute effects, and in the case of higher damage weapons (such as ARs/SMGs) they would really just rip through an IPC's thin plating all the same. These things are not tanks, but punching them won't really do much, for example.

Questions probably to be asked immediately :

Q: Wouldn't this make mechs very powerful?

A : Yes. Vehicles are an entirely different realm of combat from dudes with guns. More at 11. If they get out of hand, you can make them more rare, or take them out of hands of robotics entirely bar lighter parts.

Q : What about borgs?

A : Just keep their laser resist, or make them fully laser immune. They are pretty weak otherwise, with even the dreaded combat module going splat in an RNG amount of .45 shots as minimal as 3.

For reference : I have posted several contradictory threads on the matter of EMPs. This is yet another attempt to look back in retrospect and maybe present something reasonable out of the threads of the past.

 

 

[Playbahnosh]

So remove EMP, nerf lasers and mechs to the ground, make IPCs immortal. Gotcha.

-1

[Snakebittenn]

5 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

So remove EMP, nerf lasers and mechs to the ground, make IPCs immortal. Gotcha.

-1

Did you read the thread?
Like, the entire thread.
Lasers wouldn't get any weaker, and mechs would actually get *stronger* because you can't destroy them in one click with a lethal ion rifle.
And IPCs wouldn't be immortal?? Again, you just can't destroy them in a single click. If an IPC overheats, it's /genuinely/ a dangerous situation.

[Playbahnosh]

By that logic we should also remove frags, other grenades and explosions in general because it can instakill a human, and make it so sniper rifles only cause tickles.

EMPs are rare enough as it is, and I really don't think IPCs need more buffing.

[Hepatica]

+1, IPCs are practically unplayable as antag, which only inhibits the RP potential that could come from it. I love this idea, however. I have one, and only one, concern. Exosuits. We recently had a worm event in which robotics spammed out five exosuits, four of which I believe were warmachines built for combat. Now, naturally the worms would not have been able to emp them anyway, AND robotics has been nerfed recently as well, that being said, it is still not impossible, nor even difficult, to spam out combat exosuits as things currently stand, even without materials. While they would be quite weak, I admit, it could still be very, very hard to deal with. I think robotics weaponry should be nerfed to require materials other then glass and steel, as currently the laser canon and mounted machine gun only require the base materials. While I don't think exosuits should be something you look at and go "yeah lets just sneeze on it and its done", I do not want to see two combat roboticists rushing into a fight with two exosuits and gunning down antags.

[Hepatica]

6 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

By that logic we should also remove frags, other grenades and explosions in general because it can instakill a human, and make it so sniper rifles only cause tickles.

EMPs are rare enough as it is, and I really don't think IPCs need more buffing.

I have literally been point blank hit by a frag grenade with no armor on and walked away from it icly. Laughable to call them instakill. Other explosive devices such as c4, welding tanks, and bombs, are far easier to play around then an ion one tapping you or an emp being thrown at your feet and detonating before you can properly react.

[Playbahnosh]

1 minute ago, Hepatica said:

I have literally been point blank hit by a frag grenade with no armor on and walked away from it icly.

So your one single experience with a frag is now empirical evidence they are non-lethal and laughable, right. The past few months I've been fragged three times, and while not instakill, it is very much omae wa mo shindeiru because of shrapnel and blood loss thanks to brainmed. But this is not the topic at hand.

IPCs have a different playstyle for a reason. They are hugely resistant to brute, don't breathe, don't eat/drink, can't bleed, take no brain damage, take no toxin or biological damage, no mental/psychological shit, all their parts are easily replacable, etc etc. The ONLY thing they are vulnerable to is heat, which is easily countered by a cooling unit, and EMP, which is astonishingly rare anyway. And you still want to be even more immortal. No.

[Snakebittenn]

17 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

IPCs have a different playstyle for a reason. They are hugely resistant to brute, don't breathe, don't eat/drink, can't bleed, take no brain damage, take no toxin or biological damage, no mental/psychological shit, all their parts are easily replacable, etc etc. The ONLY thing they are vulnerable to is heat, which is easily countered by a cooling unit, and EMP, which is astonishingly rare anyway. And you still want to be even more immortal. No.

Yes, but they're super weak to EMPs and lasers and can't self-heal without nanopaste, breathing is pretty negligible as they die in vacuum anyway (besides xions and g1s/g2s for a limited time), not needing to eat and drink is so hilariously negligible it's hilarious, bleeding can be patched pretty easily, they *do* take brain damage, nobody uses toxins/biological damage to kill someone, traumas were removed, and their parts being replaced requires robotics to be both present and competent.

Also, again, overheating does damage IPCs a lot.

[Playbahnosh]

9 minutes ago, Snakebittenn said:

Also, again, overheating does damage IPCs a lot.

What do you know, overheating does everyone else damage as well! IPCs are borderline powergame-y already, and you wanna make them more so, by removing one of the two things that might pose them any real danger. I don't condone this.

[Doc]

24 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

What do you know, overheating does everyone else damage as well!

This alone tells me you aren't very familar with how IPCs work.

To clarify, IPCs 'overheating' has no (at least, in 99.99% of cases) relation to actual atmospheric temperature. IPCs have their own internal temperature mechanics that are managed whenever they move, depending on what equipment they're wearing, and if they choose to run; an IPC can actually hard-incapacitate itself in a few dozen seconds simply by forcing itself to run repeatedly, or by wearing heavy armor without a cooling unit (which are renowned for having laughably short-lived power cells without RnD assistance, last I checked). This is a pretty big part of managing how you deal with combat as an IPC, as you can take just as much if not more damage by mismanaging your heat than by getting attacked. This change would make it so that is a massive, constant concern when engaging anyone with energy weapons, as getting hit will spike your internal heat and force you to disengage entirely to avoid burning up. Committing to the engagement is still possible, but would effectively be suicide. It's really an IPC nerf- and I'm okay with that.

 

Edit: in case it wasn't clear, +1. Ions need to get removed SOMEHOW, and this is the best suggestion I've seen so far for actually making that happen.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Doc

[MattAtlas]

This will be implemented by yours truly here: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/10245 more or less. I have chosen to keep ions as a weapon of strategic utility while severely nerfing their point and click capabilities plus the damage inflicted by EMPs. You can view more details there. This also means we can implement a not-yet-disclosed third weapon to the security armory.

I have also decided to change how EMPs affect robotic organs in general. The remaining items on my todo list are thus mechs and hardsuits.

[Playbahnosh]

8 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

This will be implemented by yours truly here: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/10245

Now see, I can get behind this. This is sensible. I always thought EMPs should stun synthetics and not outright murder them, causing temporary random malfunctions and not complete discharge of all electricals (no matter how realistically accurate). For IPCs, an EMP nade should completely paralyze them for a time and take some charge off their battery (definitely not a complete drain, more like 10-20% max). Bios with synthetic parts should lose the use of that limb/organ for roughly the same time. (If it's a synthetic heart...well...oof.) and should do the same for mechs and hardsuits.

[niennab]

I've lately found that it can be difficult to play smart as an IPC due to the current meta surrounding EMPs and the Ion rifle. In that it typically boils down to being alive, and then being dead, worse so if you lag. It's impossible to dodge or even know these things might be coming, and excluding IPCs, then ion meta has boiled down to whoever ions the ion first.

This is a much needed change and I am excited to see it implemented. This isn't related to the EMP/Ion changes but it'd be great if IPCs had a warning dialogue flash when they're close to death.

[Fluffy]

The PR was merged and therefore this suggestion is considered implemented.

Locking and archiving.