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On the recent round-start failures in secret.


Jamini

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Okay! I'm sure a few of you remember the little argument/debate/code talk I had with duck and Delta last night, at least I'm certain THEY do.


It turns out, after looking over aurora code again, I was wrong! I'll admit it. Secret code does indeed not include round-types that you don't have the minimum number of players readied for! You guys may feel free to mock me for being wrong, if you feel the need, as it is deserved.


NOW, to the point! I also suspect I have figured out why secret has been failing to start recently when we have around 21-23 people online, but not fewer than 15! There is /this/ little gem in our pre_start() code for cult! Take a look!

 

	var/list/cultists_possible = get_players_for_role(BE_CULTIST)
for(var/datum/mind/player in cultists_possible)
	for(var/job in restricted_jobs)//Removing heads and such from the list
		if(player.assigned_role == job)
			msg_scopes("[player.key] has an invalid job for this role.")
			cultists_possible -= player

for(var/cultists_number = 1 to max_cultists_to_start)
	if(!cultists_possible.len)
		break
	var/datum/mind/cultist = pick(cultists_possible)
	cultists_possible -= cultist
	cult += cultist

return (cult.len>0)

 

What does this code mean?


Well, first it looks to see who out of all readied players has cult enabled. It makes a list of them.

THEN it cycles through the list and removes every job tag that matches the restricted_jobs list for the mode.

THEN it checks if that list is longer than one player!

If that list is longer than three players, it will pick 3-4 players from that list and add them to the cult list.

IF there is a cult list longer than 1, the round starts.


Simple right?


Well, it would be. Except for this:

 

	restricted_jobs = list("Chaplain","AI", "Cyborg", "Security Officer", "Warden", "Detective", "Head of Security", "Captain")

 

Security officers and the warden are not able to be starting cultists. Nor is the Detective (though a CSI may).


Now, Jamini, what does this have to do with cult? My answer: Everything


Look at the normal population on-server during a busy round. Do you notice something? Admit it or not Aurora stacks the security department more often than any other. While it may not be particularly nice to say, it is kind of a fact. It's fairly common for security as an entity to outnumber at least two other departments, if not consist of half the crew entirely. Considering the number of round-start failures lately, most of the rest of the station probably doesn't have cult enabled!


This, my friends, is why secret has been failing to start lately. A combination of nobody set up as a cultist, and a good half of the server being unable to be cultists. Also, you should note, this is the only antagonist type that security is entirely immune to being!(Except vampires, but we don't talk about vampires) Anyone can be a changeling, all heads are immune to starting as revolutionaries (duh), loyalty-implanted folks (HOS, Captain, IAA) are immune to traitoring... however for some reason security is the only department that can never (with the exception of the CSI) start as a cultist. Why? I'm not really sure! (Oh, also Borgs are immune to most antagonists types by virtue of being slaved to an AI. What fun!)


So! In the interest of curtailing roundstart failures, we have a few solutions to this problem!



1. The simplest: Remove Detecitve, Officer, and Warden from the restricted_role list. Quite frankly it makes no sense, at least in my mind, that security would be immune to being brainwashed/forcibly converted off-station to follow Nar'sie. They aren't loyalty implanted, after all, and they are very demonstrably human(/tajaran/Skrell/Unathi/IPC)

2. The more robust way: Port over the new Baystation12 traitor code.

 

How Bay12 Antagonist Selection Code Works

Players that vote for a game mode are placed into a list of candidates.
Should a mode fail to have enough candidates for antagonists, all players who ARE enabled are selected
All remaining antagonist slots are filled by players who voted to play the round type.
This may apply or be applied to mutiny as well

 

I am NOT saying #2 is better. However it is an option that could be implemented, and it would help curtail any further instances of rounds failing to start due to lacking antagonist players. Personally? I do not like how bay12 implemented it. However it is an option if we wish to pursue that avenue.


Your thoughts on the matter?

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Secret doesn't take too long to re-vote, once it fails. The most simple thing to do, would be to change the vote cool-down. Instead of forcing the entire two minutes (I think?) that happens when a vote fails, maybe it could be changed to only be one minute.


Security officers are not immune to being brainwashed, unless it's recently been changed. Recently, as in a few weeks, which I highly doubt. The proof that I have that they aren't immune, is due to a first-hand account of being brainwashed while Security. That said, somebody such as the Warden being a cult-head at the very start, would give the cultists a pretty big advantage, over what the cultists already have. The unfair advantage a Security cult-head would have, would be getting the ability to subvert the entire Security team rather easily.


Also, what I don't get, is the Security issue of your subject. Recently, I've been noticing how many "issues" you've addressed with Security. Security normally isn't stacked on a Secret round, from what I've seen. You do get Security stacked when an antag round is voted for, for obvious reasons. In Secret, more often than not, I've seen the departments to be more or less balanced. Hell, there have even been times where Security is out-numbered, so this piece didn't really add anything to your claim.

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Oh, so it was that.


completely neglected to realize that. Woops.


Yeah, cult's weird. I've not seen that get voted in such a long time, much less played, that I haven't seen the raw code for it.


It's honestly really strange that the Warden, Detective and Sec officer are restricted in that manner. I think it has to do with either the older bay code or something snipped from tgcode. IIRC, most of security was LI'd due to the coders and administration fearing shitcurity.


Personally, I say "yes" to both options. It's a little more work but in my opinion it'd be worth it.

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The unfair advantage a Security cult-head would have, would be getting the ability to subvert the entire Security team rather easily.

 

I don't see this is an issue. First, forced-conversions still require that the recipient accept the conversion. Second, unless security is considered outright stronger than other departments (which I will argue they do have more power than the others do by sheer virtue of starting equipment and community attitudes towards sec) this is no different than all of medical, all of engineering, all of science, or all of cargo being cult.


Also, I'll take some screenshots of the round start manifest next time I spy a massive stack in security. As it happens way more than you give it credit for happening.

 

It's honestly really strange that the Warden, Detective and Sec officer are restricted in that manner. I think it has to do with either the older bay code or something snipped from tgcode. IIRC, most of security was LI'd due to the coders and administration fearing shitcurity.

 

It's TG code, Bay had it for a time and removed them from the list within the last year some time. About the same time that they added in the newer antagonist code.

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I've noticed that it's not just security that outnumbers the others though, quite commonly I've seen Engineering be full and security nearly empty, another shift later can be the exact opposite.


On topic though: Yeah... I say we give it a try, if sec cultists become an issue, deal with the players or just re-insert the code. Simples.

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I've noticed that it's not just security that outnumbers the others though, quite commonly I've seen Engineering be full and security nearly empty, another shift later can be the exact opposite.


On topic though: Yeah... I say we give it a try, if sec cultists become an issue, deal with the players or just re-insert the code. Simples.

 

It may have something to do with playtime as well. I can say with certainty that security is normally QUITE full between 6-11pm -5GMT, which is also the time when we have the largest amount of non-regulars on the server.

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We have a pretty consistently high number of sec players though. Sometimes it fluctuates but this explanation fits the data pretty much perfectly. Porting a whole new antagcode (one with a premise I don't even like) sounds like a hassle, so I'm in favor of removing sec roles from the list. Once upon a time, officers could not be converted, but this is no longer the case. Now it's the loyalty-implanted that are safe. Which means IAA should be on that list instead or else we end up with an implanted cultist.



Also, I don't think any of us are ordinarily petty enough to do so, but I will take the heavy, heavy burden of making fun of you for being wrong.


haha i was right. you were wrong. your claims were wrong and that is terrible.

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The unfair advantage a Security cult-head would have, would be getting the ability to subvert the entire Security team rather easily.

 

I don't see this is an issue. First, forced-conversions still require that the recipient accept the conversion. Second, unless security is considered outright stronger than other departments (which I will argue they do have more power than the others do by sheer virtue of starting equipment and community attitudes towards sec) this is no different than all of medical, all of engineering, all of science, or all of cargo being cult.


Also, I'll take some screenshots of the round start manifest next time I spy a massive stack in security. As it happens way more than you give it credit for happening.

 

See, that's an issue though. I could just as easily take a screenshot where Security has one or two, and another department has twenty.


As I stated, it happens, but not all the time like you're trying to say.

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Also, I don't think any of us are ordinarily petty enough to do so, but I will take the heavy, heavy burden of making fun of you for being wrong.


haha i was right. you were wrong. your claims were wrong and that is terrible.

 

I make mistakes, I'll admit it when I make mistakes. I'm a flawed human being with a terribly skewed perspective at times, just like everyone else. :)


Good point on the IAA, they should be added to the list of non-cult starting antagonists.

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As I stated, it happens, but not all the time like you're trying to say.

 

It still feels like security is pretty consistently the most-staffed department. There are a /lot/ of security regulars, and the entire department is a magnet for new players.


Off the very top of my head:



Security Regulars:

Jade, Carton, M'sid, Avery, Centurian, Katana, Ohm, Ana, Bee, Mull, Vira, Lily


Engineering Regulars:

Dmytro, Nasir, Nasir, Travis, Oliver, Roy, Ziva/Sairis


Medical Regulars:

Aliyah, Samantha, Omnir, Charlie Dove, Normally there are a lot of others who I can't remember offhand.


Science Regulars:

Crop, Cordell


Mining/Cargo Regulars:

Aaron, Stamos



Obviously this is not anywhere near a complete list. Perhaps our officers are more memorable than some people in other departments as well, but I will maintain that security is far more often properly staffed than most other departments.

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Also, it's key to note that it seems that certain game modes that Secret bounces too will not boot unless a certain amount of players are actually playing.

 

Actually that is not the case. I used to believe that, and I found out otherwise. Secret checks the number of people readied, and only picks modes that can start with the current population. Considering the situation, it's likely the round-start failures are lack of antagonists, not lack of readied up players.

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Let's talk data, shall we?

 

msg_scopes("[player.key] has an invalid job for this role.")

 

This one very specific line sends a debug message to a few folks whenever they get removed from the list of cultists. I have seen roughly 2-3 round start failures this week. And none of them have actually had that message pop up. Ergo, the failure to start isn't this specific reason, or at least, has not been at those times. Although, it might also be the same thing just interrupting other rounds. Dunno, don't really care.


I'm more curious about removing sec from protected roles, frankly. For reasons of balancing and so on.

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Also, I don't think any of us are ordinarily petty enough to do so, but I will take the heavy, heavy burden of making fun of you for being wrong.


haha i was right. you were wrong. your claims were wrong and that is terrible.

As much as a joke as that is, please do not do it in the fourms, even if he did ask for it.

 

Off the very top of my head:


Security Regulars:

Jade, Carton, M'sid, Avery, Centurian, Katana, Ohm, Ana, Bee, Mull, Vira, Lily


Engineering Regulars:

Dmytro, Nasir, Nasir, Travis, Oliver, Roy, Ziva/Sairis


Medical Regulars:

Aliyah, Samantha, Omnir, Charlie Dove, Normally there are a lot of others who I can't remember offhand.


Science Regulars:

Crop, Cordell


Mining/Cargo Regulars:

Aaron, Stamos

As stated this is not a complete list and off your memory, which shows me that you pay more attention to the departments you interact with more than the others. There are loads of times when the other departments are full and there is no-one in security. Most of our security players actually join after round start, so they are not in the calculation.


I find it highly unlikely that this one thing is the cause of all the round start problems however, Skull and I are not against taking the roles off the restricted list for round start. But that will bring in another issue that has been spotted in all departments. That is when players spend a lot of time in a department they gain friends who willingly join them antagging. I can think of 2 engineers(sometimes science) who always join together if one of them is an antag and commit antagonistic actions, forgetting that one of them isn't a real antag.

I bring up that issue because it is well known that once security are acting as a sole force they can be unstoppable (I say can be because there are a few officers who never antag and will take down other officers) and once you have a department like security as an antag force the game is pretty much game over unless somehow the rest of the crew overpower them without ERT help.


You say it makes no difference if all of sec is cult over lets say engineering, except that sec have all the tools to take on anyone they want to without any kind of resistance, they have armour, batons, pepperspray, tazers, sunglasses, beepsky, handcuffs, and easy access to more of these things with a simple convert of a warden, from round start. It's not uncommon for sec officers to walk around with full gear ready to put it on at a moments notice. The other departments have to work for that edge on other players.


Skull you ninja.


Valk, there are no protected roles for wizard as you are not in a job on the station as that antag. Unlesss the code is being code and copying the restricted roles from the gamemode type defined in the code.

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This might not be the right thread, but...


Would it be practical to have some sort of lobby manifest thing showing how many people are currently readied for- have on High, say -each job?


It seems like something like that would prevent a lot of over/understaffed department issues.

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Perhaps our officers are more memorable than some people in other departments as well, but I will maintain that security is far more often properly staffed than most other departments.

 

I've got a theory about that one. Security is slightly unique in that they interact with the entire station in one form or another, by responding to security calls, patrolling, executing warrants, etc etc. It's perfectly feasible to find a security officer anywhere on the station, interacting with someone in some form or another. Medbay, research, and engineering typically sit in their own corners until they have to leave the departments for something.

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As I stated, it happens, but not all the time like you're trying to say.

 

It still feels like security is pretty consistently the most-staffed department. There are a /lot/ of security regulars, and the entire department is a magnet for new players.


Off the very top of my head:



Security Regulars:

Jade, Carton, M'sid, Avery, Centurian, Katana, Ohm, Ana, Bee, Mull, Vira, Lily


Engineering Regulars:

Dmytro, Nasir, Nasir, Travis, Oliver, Roy, Ziva/Sairis


Medical Regulars:

Aliyah, Samantha, Omnir, Charlie Dove, Normally there are a lot of others who I can't remember offhand.


Science Regulars:

Crop, Cordell


Mining/Cargo Regulars:

Aaron, Stamos



Obviously this is not anywhere near a complete list. Perhaps our officers are more memorable than some people in other departments as well, but I will maintain that security is far more often properly staffed than most other departments.

 

Huh, nothing on service and the others? *feels the cold* Damn that's harsh.


But yes, I definitely recognize most of the names on the list. I often have cult enabled because I enjoy the gamemode (when it's not solely stuck in mining) but I have a feeling many people de-select cult and rev due to the fact a lot of things can be canonized really fast.

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