Rescue-borg fixes

[Playbahnosh]

I've been playing stationbound quite a lot lately, and I've found that the Rescue module is in a very bad shape, and oftentimes completely incapable of performing the sole function it was made to do. So, here is a proposal to fix the rescue module back to being able to...well....rescue people.

Borg-hypo fixes
Currently, the rescueborg hypo has four meds: Tricord, Inaprov, Morto and Adrenaline. All of which have their uses stabilizing differently dying people, but with the addition of brainmed, oxygenation became paramount, and a critical patient pumped full of all four of those still won't make it. Dexalin needs to be added to the hypo so patients could have a chance to actually see the inside of the medbay before braindeath. The other major issue is, that the borg-hypo doesn't work through voidsuits and hardsuits, this needs to be fixed, so people suited up (EVA or otherwise) could actually have a chance to be rescued.

Addition of a gripper
Rescueborgs, as opposed to surgery ones, don't have a clamp, so they can't interact with anything other than dragging. But rescue modules need to have the ability to at least take off voidsuits (can't bandage bleeding wounds or inject medicine through them) and hang an IV, maybe even grab bottles/scan results, etc. Restrict everything else, it's fine, but this is necessary.

Spectrometer
Change the Advanced Reagent Scanner to a Mass Spectrometer. In nearly every single case it's more important to know if the patient has any foreign substances in their blood rather than knowing if a glass has beer in it. It's not very useful to know the patient's blood contains "100% Blood". A spectrometer would actually tell how and why they are dying, which is pretty important to know. This change needs to be applied to the other mediborg variant as well.

Some more fixes would include the ability to store more than a single rollerbed, 2 would be enough for most cases, 3 max. I think the dropper and wireless charger can be removed, they serve no purpose. The flash can be removed as well. It's pretty much useless in stopping anyone anyway, and just takes up space in the inventory.

That's it for now. I'll add more ideas later when I have time. Please let me know if you agree with these ideas or would like to change something.
Thank you!

Edited October 28, 2020 by Playbahnosh

[Chada1]

Thank you very much for all of these suggestions and I'll take them into account when updating the module soon, but I'm already planning to update the module.

I plan to give it a speedboost similar to the old Combat speedboost, except slower, so it's more onpar with a human sprint, and then I may also update the other medical tools and/or give it a functional jetpack, another way to improve it further would be to allow it to climb ladders, but I'm worried that won't be received well.

[Playbahnosh]

6 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Thank you very much for all of these suggestions and I'll take them into account when updating the module soon, but I'm already planning to update the module.

I plan to give it a speedboost similar to the old Combat speedboost, except slower, so it's more onpar with a human sprint, and then I may also update the other medical tools and/or give it a functional jetpack, another way to improve it further would be to allow it to climb ladders, but I'm worried that won't be received well.

I think the speedboost is redundant. Robotics can give borgs the VTEC upgrade which makes them way too fast already, at least on rounds where they can get their hands on some gold, which is not often. I'm totally good with that actually. Borgs don't really need to be faster, but they do need to be able to perform their intended function more than anything.

Don't get me wrong, I want to have jetpacks as a borg, but it's not very realistic. Borgs are heavy and carry a lot of equipment, so being able to fly would need a pretty damn big propulsion system. That, and I don't wanna make borgs more OP, just more useful in general. The same for climbing ladders. Borgs are big and unwieldly, and while climbing ladders would be cool, it wouldn't be very realistic. Borgs are already fast and agile, they can use the stairs or the elevators just fine

Edited October 27, 2020 by Playbahnosh

[Chada1]

Just now, Playbahnosh said:

I think the speedboost is redundant. Robotics can give borgs the VTEC upgrade which makes them fast enough already, at least on rounds where they can get their hands on some gold, which is not often. I'm totally good with that actually. Borgs don't really need to be faster, but they do need to be able to perform their intended function more than anything.

Don't get me wrong, I want to have jetpacks as a borg, but it's not very realistic. Borgs are heavy and carry a lot of equipment, so being able to fly would need a pretty damn big propulsion system. That, and I don't wanna make borgs more OP, just more useful in general. The same for climbing ladders. Borgs are big and unwieldly, and while climbing ladders would be cool, it wouldn't be very realistic. Borgs are already fast and agile, they can use the stairs or the elevators just fine

These concerns are misplaced, since the Rescue 'borg in specific has no ability to do chemistry or surgery, it has basically one single niche which is triage and EMT stuff, so like. Anything that helps them get onto and off of the asteroid is within that niche. 

The VTEC module while super useful changes your base speed, so it's not comparable to a sprint, and then it also requires resources that you won't get in most rounds, and no 'borg module should depend on upgrades to simply be viable, which is how it is rn in that sense.

The jetpack issue is true but I think in the unique case of Rescue could be excused, since Rescue really is the only 'borg module that should be able to do this, it'd be a unique enough thing that made it able to outbeat the Medical module in its niche is my thinking.

[Pratepresidenten]

13 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

But rescue modules need to have the ability to at least take off voidsuits

Removing clothes was nuked from borgs in general. Not too sure how willing they'd be to reimplement it for a single module.

[Chada1]

3 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Removing clothes was nuked from borgs in general. Not too sure how willing they'd be to reimplement it for a single module.

I doubt it will too, so like. Best to just improve rescue in other ways.

[Amunak]

45 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

The other major issue is, that the borg-hypo doesn't work through voidsuits and hardsuits, this needs to be fixed, so people suited up (EVA or otherwise) could actually have a chance to be rescued.

Maybe this already existed at some point and was removed, but what about just giving voidsuits and hardsuits (maybe just some types?) an injector port to quickly help (or not) people inside? I'm pretty sure I've seen at least some semi-realistic Sci-Fi have that, and it makes perfect sense (to me anyway).

Not sure if it would somehow upset the antag balance or whatever.

[Playbahnosh]

34 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

These concerns are misplaced, since the Rescue 'borg in specific has no ability to do chemistry or surgery, it has basically one single niche which is triage and EMT stuff, so like. Anything that helps them get onto and off of the asteroid is within that niche.

And they can already do that. At their core, stationbounds are tools, made to fulfill a very specific purpose, and that's what makes them unique in this regard. A rescueborg doesn't need to do anything else, just be good a rescuing people from danger. Buffing them too much would make the role more fun, sure, but will immediately draw the ire of the people who ultimately brought down the fire axe that gimped them to this level of being nearly unplayable in the first place.

34 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

The jetpack issue is true but I think in the unique case of Rescue could be excused, since Rescue really is the only 'borg module that should be able to do this, it'd be a unique enough thing that made it able to outbeat the Medical module in its niche is my thinking.

I don't think any borg should be able to fly. It is a very realistic drawback of being a heavy, mechanical construct.

34 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

The VTEC module while super useful changes your base speed, so it's not comparable to a sprint, and then it also requires resources that you won't get in most rounds, and no 'borg module should depend on upgrades to simply be viable, which is how it is rn in that sense.

The VTEC module also drains the battery like hell, it has it's comparable drawback, so it's totally what you're suggesting, it's just always on, which is way more preferable than having the annoyance of having to keep hammering an extra button all the time for the same result. It's just an added annoyance, while you would rather focus on navigating while pulling a dying patient on the gurney. 

I played stationbounds a lot, especially medical ones so I'm talking from experience. Most borgs are not unviable because they are slow or can't fly, their mobility is just fine. They are screwed because their proverbial hands are tied with having lost a lot of their tools and functionality to the nerfammer, that is necessary to perform the _one_ specific thing they are made for. Upgrades are nice, having a better light, being faster with VTEC or being able to move in zero G with the jetpack (not flying). But upgrades are a privilege, a product of the station's departments working together, and should not be expected every round. Mobility is fine. Trying to make them faster, tougher, being able to fly, etc would not make them more viable, just make people scream for the nerfhammer again, or at worst, the complete removal of synthetics. Let's start small and just give them back the tools to perform their basic funtion and go from there.

34 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Removing clothes was nuked from borgs in general. Not too sure how willing they'd be to reimplement it for a single module.

Like I explained, you can't treat people through voidsuits. You can't stop bleeding wounds or inject any medication, and if you can't stabilize a person, they won't make it 2 squares, let alone to the mebay because brainmed. Literally anyone can take a void suit off an injured person but the very module that was specifically made to rescue people. Restrict everything else, but please make them able to take at least voidsuits off.

1 minute ago, Amunak said:

Maybe this already existed at some point and was removed, but what about just giving voidsuits and hardsuits (maybe just some types?) an injector port to quickly help (or not) people inside? I'm pretty sure I've seen at least some semi-realistic Sci-Fi have that, and it makes perfect sense (to me anyway).

Not sure if it would somehow upset the antag balance or whatever.

Void-/hardsuits do have injector ports, but those only work with syringes, not the borg-hypo.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Playbahnosh

[Amunak]

3 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

Void-/hardsuits do have injector ports, but those only work with syringes, not the borg-hypo.

Oh! Maybe just fixing that instead would help? I don't see a reason why the hypo (including non-borg) should be incompatible with this. Like, you'd expect them to be made specifically compatible for exactly this reason.

[Playbahnosh]

1 minute ago, Amunak said:

Oh! Maybe just fixing that instead would help? I don't see a reason why the hypo (including non-borg) should be incompatible with this. Like, you'd expect them to be made specifically compatible for exactly this reason.

That's exactly right, injector ports are exactly for the purpose of injecting life-saving medication in EVA, and if memory serves, hypos were able to do that, but was changed because.....who knows. Syringes still work, but borgs only have one for blood draws, their medicine dispenser only works through the hypo, so it's needs to work with hard/voidsuits to have any chance of saving people in EVA.

[Chada1]

19 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

And they can already do that. At their core, stationbounds are tools, made to fulfill a very specific purpose, and that's what makes them unique in this regard. A rescueborg doesn't need to do anything else, just be good a rescuing people from danger. Buffing them too much would make the role more fun, sure, but will immediately draw the ire of the people who ultimately brought down the fire axe that gimped them to this level of being nearly unplayable in the first place.

Noone 'Brought the axe down on them' in the first place, the tools aren't there because noone has added them, that's really it. The Rescue Module hasn't been updated in a veeery long time, the last addition I think was actually from me adding basic tools to them, the flash/etc.

19 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

I don't think any borg should be able to fly. It is a very realistic drawback of being a heavy, mechanical construct.

They already can, there's a jetpack module that can be applied to many of the modules, but is extremely expensive. Rescue would be the only one who would get it all to itself without the upgrade, and it's just from necessity of retrieving Crew from the Asteroid.

19 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

The VTEC module also drains the battery like hell, it has it's comparable drawback, so it's totally what you're suggesting, it's just always on, which is way more preferable than having the annoyance of having to keep hammering an extra button all the time for the same result. It's just an added annoyance, while you would rather focus on navigating while pulling a dying patient on the gurney. 

By the same logic, it was a waste of time to give a speedboost tool to the Combat 'borg ? And yet it made the combat 'borg one of the best modules hands down for rescuing people, which is kinda in practice why this isn't true.

19 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

I played stationbounds a lot, especially medical ones so I'm talking from experience. Most borgs are not unviable because they are slow or can't fly, their mobility is just fine. They are screwed because their proverbial hands are tied with having lost a lot of their tools and functionality to the nerfammer, that is necessary to perform the _one_ specific thing they are made for. Upgrades are nice, having a better light, being faster with VTEC or being able to move in zero G with the jetpack (not flying). But upgrades are a privilege, a product of the station's departments working together, and should not be expected every round. Mobility is fine. Trying to make them faster, tougher, being able to fly, etc would not make them more viable, just make people scream for the nerfhammer again, or at worst, the complete removal of synthetics. Let's start small and just give them back the tools to perform their basic funtion and go from there.

Most 'borg modules have only gained tools, they haven't lost them. Other servers just have different tools than Aurora does. I'm as experienced as you if not more when it comes to playing 'borgs. It would make them more viable, they don't get the kinds of tools that the medical module does, noone is going to request a removal of synthetics or an extreme nerf over the Rescue 'borg becoming more mobile than the other modules, especially if it doesn't have the more dangerous tools like the circular saw/scalpel/etc.

As another note, if Mechs can have jetpacks, it seems crazy to say that 'borgs can't, they aren't heavier than mechs.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Chada1

[Playbahnosh]

3 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

They already can, there's a jetpack module that can be applied to many of the modules, but is extremely expensive. Rescue would be the only one who would get it all to itself without the upgrade, and it's just from necessity of retrieving Crew from the Asteroid.

AFAIK the current jetpack module only allows borgs to move in zero G and not actually fly. At least the few times I actually got the jetpack upgrade, it didn't allow me to change Z levels or glide over holes at all. Learned that the hard way. (and yes, it was turned on.) Maybe it's a bug or something. But my argument still stands, as a rescue borg I was more than capable of responding to any and all emergencies, I just had to use the elevator or climb the stairs, which is fine, and more realistic even ICly and mechanics-wise than a ton of steel being able to flutter around freely. ALSO, now that I think about it, it wouldn't make rescuing any more viable, since you can't actually pull a gurney while flying. You'd still have to wait for the fleshbags to drag a hoist out to wherever you are, which can be used to pull your borg-ass out as well.

9 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

By the same logic, it was a waste of time to give a speedboost tool to the Combat 'borg ? And yet it made the combat 'borg would of the best modules hands down for rescuing people, which is kinda in practice why this isn't true.

Secborgs have been nuked, and the combat variant is for special gamemmodes only. Besides, this is not the thread for other types of borgs. In my experience, the current speed is just fine, with the VTEC being available for some Initial-D shenanigans when people actually bother to do their jobs. Extra mobility is the least of the issues here right now while pure basic functionality is not fixed.

14 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Most 'borg modules have only gained tools, they haven't lost them. Other servers just have different tools than Aurora does.

Well then, I must remember wrong then. I played a lot of games on quite a few servers through the years, stuff gets mixed up sometimes, I'm sorry about that. The suggestions I made above still stand, and I think they are necessary, regardless of speed boost.

 

[Chada1]

3 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

Secborgs have been nuked, and the combat variant is for special gamemmodes only. Besides, this is not the thread for other types of borgs. In my experience, the current speed is just fine, with the VTEC being available for some Initial-D shenanigans when people actually bother to do their jobs. Extra mobility is the least of the issues here right now while pure basic functionality is not fixed.

Me mentioning a tool that the combat 'borg has doesn't mean I'm adding the combat 'borg. The speedboost worked for it, and it made it very good at retrieving Crew quickly, as it stands, you're basically assured to be dead if you get in trouble on the Asteroid, it's a thing many EMT players complain about, and they're much faster than a 'borg is, so it really is important.

Me adding some things doesn't mean other things shouldn't also be fixed, but the idea that I should fix those things before I consider adding other things -- I don't agree with that.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Chada1

[Playbahnosh]

5 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

The speedboost worked for it, and it made it very good at retrieving Crew quickly

Okay, how about this: give the Rescueborg a built-in variant of the VTEC module with a milder speed boost and energy drain, just enough to be speedy enough to your taste. But please don't make us have to hammer an extra button continuously for essentially the same effect. Borgs have to deal with enough clicking to switch tools and use borg commands as it is.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Playbahnosh

[Chada1]

4 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

Okay, how about this: give the Rescueborg a built-in variant of the VTEC module with a milder speed boost and energy drain, just enough to be speedy enough to your taste. But please don't make us have to hammer an extra button continuously for essentially the same effect. Borgs have to deal with enough clicking to switch tools and use borg commands as it is.

I can try but like... Whatever effect I add has to be different enough from the VTEC that it doesn't carry over between modules at least, like its own tool, and I could make it drain battery faster if it were an actual tool/etc. So it makes a lot of sense to just make it a thing you toggle by adding it to one of your 3 tool slots. Not really hammering a button in that case, but selecting it.

[Playbahnosh]

1 minute ago, Chada1 said:

I can try but like... Whatever effect I add has to be different enough from the VTEC that it doesn't carry over between modules at least, like its own tool, and I could make it drain battery faster if it were an actual tool/etc. So it makes a lot of sense to just make it a thing you toggle by adding it to one of your 3 tool slots. Not really hammering a button in that case, but selecting it.

Now that you explained that it would be an extra tool and not a replacement for the VTEC upgrade, I'm actually not opposed to this if it's an optional thing.
The thing about VTEC is, that if you can actually get it, it's guaranteed you already have a big enough battery upgrade to support it as well, and the extra drain is fine with that in mind. Giving basic borgs a speed boost tool that would murder their tiny starting batteries....well, that might become an issue though. However, I like it as a sort of "emergency boost" thing and not something that would be constantly used.

[StationCrab]

I certainly agree with the void suit issue. Nothing more frustrating than losing a patient because you can't remove clothing or inject medication to stabilize a patient as a rescue borg.

[Amunak]

Interesting, looking at the code both hypospray and syringes can be used on people in suits. Syringes have a specific check for this, whereas hyposprays simply don't bother to call `can_inject` and thus can be used on any mob at any time (which is probably a bug). Unfortunately borg hypos are a different thing as well, and they do check `can_inject`, which is why borgs can't inject suited people.

IMO can_inject should be added to regular hypos but allowed to inject people with suits on. (And the code should be probably moved to reagent_containers so that we don't have 3 different copies).

[Chada1]

9 minutes ago, Amunak said:

Interesting, looking at the code both hypospray and syringes can be used on people in suits. Syringes have a specific check for this, whereas hyposprays simply don't bother to call `can_inject` and thus can be used on any mob at any time (which is probably a bug). Unfortunately borg hypos are a different thing as well, and they do check `can_inject`, which is why borgs can't inject suited people.

IMO can_inject should be added to regular hypos but allowed to inject people with suits on. (And the code should be probably moved to reagent_containers so that we don't have 3 different copies).

This sounds very easy to fix actually ?

[Playbahnosh]

There's the culprit then. Nice catch @Amunak!
I think the distinction between syringes and hypos should be kept intact. Syringes have a timer for injection with the "trying to inject" thing. That same timer stands for suits with "starts hunting for an injector port" thing. Realistically, hyposprays should be instant-inject like auto-injectors, but as a drawback they should not work on suits, since they need contact with skin to deliver medication hypodermally. I think this is a good balance of advantage/drawback to a syringe. But crew doctors can already use syringes and hypos, borgs don't have this option, that's why the borg-hypo needs to be handled differently. Also, I think the borg-hypo should be renamed "borg-injector", and fluff it by saying it's a specially made injector that can work as a hypo and has an extendable needle to inject through suit ports.

[Carver]

I'd say keep the reagent scanner in addition to adding the spectrometer. Reagent scanners are fairly valuable investigative tools, so having one will occasionally give a rescue module something extra to do outside of emergencies.

As for hypos, any changes made I hope wouldn't allow instant injections through suits. Delayed injections are fine and dandy, and it shouldn't hurt to have the port allow for these.

[Playbahnosh]

1 hour ago, Carver said:

I'd say keep the reagent scanner in addition to adding the spectrometer. Reagent scanners are fairly valuable investigative tools, so having one will occasionally give a rescue module something extra to do outside of emergencies.

I don't know what realistic purpose a reagent scanner would have on a rescueborg. Investigation is not something they should do anyway. This is what I meant by having borg modules laser-specific in the job they are made for. Borgs can get a module reset at robotics if they wanna switch over to doing something else. I just don't wanna turn some modules into mega-borgs that can do everything, that goes against all the role stands for. Giving them the tools I mentioned in the post would make them more than adequate to help out a bit around medbay when half the station is not actively dying. Carrying scan results, changing IVs, maybe even allow the gripper to use the space cleaner, etc. The medical variant is more than equipped to pretty much run medbay alone right now, and I also want to change that in another post sometime later. I have ideas to refresh and balance all the borg modules and maybe, just maybe, make some new ones.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

As for hypos, any changes made I hope wouldn't allow instant injections through suits. Delayed injections are fine and dandy, and it shouldn't hurt to have the port allow for these.

Yes, IMHO Borg-injector should work like a normal syringe through suits, but keep it's instant-inject for non-suited people as it is now.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Playbahnosh

[Chada1]

26 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

I don't know what realistic purpose a reagent scanner would have on a rescueborg. Investigation is not something they should do anyway. This is what I meant by having borg modules laser-specific in the job they are made for. Borgs can get a module reset at robotics if they wanna switch over to doing something else. I just don't wanna turn some modules into mega-borgs that can do everything, that goes against all the role stands for. Giving them the tools I mentioned in the post would make them more than adequate to help out a bit around medbay when half the station is not actively dying. Carrying scan results, changing IVs, maybe even allow the gripper to use the space cleaner, etc. The medical variant is more than equipped to pretty much run medbay alone right now, and I also want to change that in another post sometime later. I have ideas to refresh and balance all the borg modules and maybe, just maybe, make some new ones.

I'd like to point out, there are only 2-3 (And VERY RARELY 4) 'borgs on the Station on a round per round basis (That's generally 40-60 people on high pop) without some serious luck or dedication from R&D, so it is kinda important that the 'borg modules are capable of a variety of things.

Now, I'm not saying that Rescue should be able to do Chemistry or Surgery, but it should definitely have the tools it has rn, the crowbar, flash, fire extinguisher, etc. There are definitely tools that 'borgs should have regardless of what module they're in and regardless of what niche they have.

The problem rn is that there are some seriously underserved 'borg modules, people have been updating the hecc out of the medical and engineering module without changing their sub-modules (rescue and construction) at all. Construction is still on par with the Engineering module but not because it's up to date, it's just because it always had v. good tools.

The TLDR: maybe not laser focus, but definitely they need lanes and niches, so that if a 'borg went Rescue and a 'borg went Medical, they wouldn't both do the same tasks, they'd have separate tasks they're v. good at.

Edit: AND PLEASE MAKE THAT POST, I WANT TO READ IT.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Chada1

[Carver]

58 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

I don't know what realistic purpose a reagent scanner would have on a rescueborg. Investigation is not something they should do anyway.

Scanning drinks/syringes/etc. for people. Something usually done by Chemists, as it's generally a waste of time to ask Security (and there's rarely forensics to even do it). I suggest keeping it merely because they have otherwise absolutely nothing else to do outside of their very niche role.

[Chada1]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/10418
Start of the Rescue rework can be seen here.

The hypospray bugfixes/etc will likely be in a different PR, for now this is just the speedboost, jetpack, spectrometer, Dexalin Hypospray, etc.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Chada1