psa: security

[Nightmare]

So I really really hate long responses and such, so i'll just say my points as briefly as possible. Nasir has fought plenty of officers, but never just straight up attacked them. He'd got into disarm fights with them, and has fought them bare fist in the holodeck when they agreed; but never clawed them down in the hallways unless they did something like cause a friend to die. I remember the part where Travis and nasir were standing outside of medical, but Nasir wasn't saying any of those things. He just stood there because Winston punched Travis, so Nasir said "Why don't you try that with Him?", and waited to see if Winston would do it. I know neither of this was the point of this topic but I just though should clear that up.

Next, as far to getting brigged. As I tell anyone that I talk to OOCly on steam or Skype, I have no problem with sec having a grudge against Nasir. If you brig him for charges that he actually did, then sure no problem, even if they are slapped on. In this case, if he had been brigged for illegal holding, battery, and insulting an officer (because he called Jade a name when she called him a cat)) then its whatever. The parts I get annoyed by, is when officers get off on minor crimes that other departments would get arrested for. An example, is when Ash ( a cadet ) kept following Nasir around, calling him a cat and spraying him with a water bottle. Not a big deal, but when Nasir told sec, they said they gave him a warning. Had it been reversed, and Nasir did it to an officer, he'd be brigged. Even if it wasn't nasir, I've seen this type of thing happen. So I think that's why people get pissy with sec. Mainly because, no one likes being stuck in a 2x3 box for an extended period for doing something, when the same doesn't happen to others. Atleast that's just me. Nasir talks a lot of shit to officers, and threatens to fight them, because in his mind, He has never seen any other type of punishment happen to them. He has tried writing reports, and doing all the legit ways, after all, Nasir didn't start out wanting to fight everyone. But eventually, things just get fed up. So basically he goes "Well. This person won't be punished at all. If I can make them atleast feel like shit, then maybe its a victory."

[Flamingo]

Roy Wyatt, Conservan Xiulle (( I am so sorry if I butchered that name)), Roy Wyatt, Oliver Stefan, Jade Rathel, Etc etc are all great engineers I am always excited to see on station. Just be aware, Engineering is not just seen that way.

 

Conservan Xullie I believe is the correct spelling. And Jade Rathel isn't an engineer that I know of. Also you listed Roy Wyatt twice (though I thought that was intentional at first).

More on topic:

I think all departments should be held accountable for their actions. That being said, it's much more clear when something unacceptable goes unpunished with security in mind. They're supposed to be the protectors of the station, and keep the peace. Yet, when their officers continually insult people, it's just "haha, there they go, at it again". Does this happen with other departments? Yes. Jade Rathel, security is quite rude (Though I love the character and hope she doesn't change). Phoebe Essel, another character I like OOC, is often rude and can be viewed as sort of an asshole. SAM, the Roboticist/Telescientist/Xenobiologist/Engineering Apprentice/Psychologist is often a MASSIVE dick (Probably in my top five characters on aurora, OOC wise). Roy Wyatt, clearly has anger issues. All these people are dicks IC, and it's great, but they're often not punished for it because they're good at what they do, or the department defends them. I know I'm guilty of defending Roy to security, as my character works with him, and has come to understand his personality. I know for a fact I'd defend SAM or Phoebe IC, despite not knowing them all too well ICly. Hell, I'd likely defend Jade (depending on circumstances for ALL characters, obviously).

However what rubs people wrong I think. and I COMPLETELY agree with: Is security WILL punish people for certain actions, that they let their own get away with constantly. Being a dick over comms? Check. Plenty of officers do this (this is the big one). I've seen officers assault people for literally no reason, or extremely weak reasons at that, then cuff the people, realize they did nothing illegal and just let them go. No one cares in security, they are just like "oops, guess you shouldn't be so suspicious next time". No apology, just a "get out of here" or a "don't resist". I can personally account for an instance where my character broke into the RD's office using telescience because someone dropped the department lockdown shutters like two minutes into the round and the AI was not responding. Then she immediately left. She stopped to chat with someone in the hall outside the office and suddenly an officer runs in, and points a taser at her. She turns and he yells "get on the ground". She signs at him, to ask if he signs, and what is wrong, then suddenly, she's on the ground unconscious. She was then cable tied and dragged to security. She was released less than two minutes later with no charges. Was this a completely valid arrest? Sure, I don't deny it. Did it warrant waving a taser and tasering someone for standing up for a moment too long? Hell the fuck no. Security should NOT be going in to a situation expecting to just taser everyone involved. That is not how it works. My character would have willingly walked herself to security if asked. Instead she went completely unspoken to until an officer showed up IN SCIENCE to taser her. The officer was never punished, though he did receive multiple incident reports from characters that round.

Because of the nature of our incident report system, and our drive to give people "freedom" over whether or not their character gets punished or fired or whatever, we effectively eliminate all forms of backlash. There's literally no long term punishment for being an asshole, save for getting incident reports that don't even matter. Sure, a DO can intimidate you, but I've yet to see a DO do anything even close to "good" punishing save for extreme cases. I've seen incident reports filed where someone destroyed station property, during an extended round, and then continued to come onto the station over and over. This was not just a random person either, this was a relatively well-known that I'll leave unnamed, because I think their actions were justified OOC (but not IC, or in this universe by any means). But back to the topic, incident reports are practically worthless from an in-game standpoint from what I (and probably many others) have seen. Does this means they are "bad" or "not working"? No, they could be doing a LOT, but it's not alleviating tension throughout departments. Person is asshole in-game. Person is security and goes 100% unpunished for intimidating crew and being a general dick. Person gets incident report filed (whether on forums or IC with an IAA). Nothing happens. Repeat.

To conclude: As it stands, security (AND other departments, but this discussion is about them) does not punish their own, or rather lets them off the hook more than they really should. If anything they should hold their own to a higher standard. If you see a security officer insulting a taja in the future. Fucking reprimand them. They're only giving all security officers a bad name. The same goes for engineers, and it's something that my character does. If she sees someone being a dick for no reason, she's going to tell them to cut it out, or otherwise yell at them, preferably in front of others so they feel ashamed (though this is an OOC preference, not an IC one). If she sees an engineer doing something blatantly illegal, she WILL report them to security (or more likely command staff).

EDIT: To clarify, though I play engineering mainly, I have a lot of respect for what security have to deal with, and I often side OOC with them (though not always ICly). However, the few times security has actually had a reason to deal with me (I don't antag generally), they simply grossly mishandle it, or nitpick over specific details. Don't get me wrong, I love them, and I hope they keep doing what they're doing, but they need to have some of their more prominent faces shape up just a little, at least in the eyes of the public. Even my dick characters are not openly assholes to people over comms from the moment they arrive on station.

As a side note, while I don't deny being biased against security, I should point out that my science character was a fan of security, before being insulted multiple times by Jade (sry, i luv u i sware) without provocation, assaulted multiple times by security for (seriously) no reason, and just general observation with how they handle situations. That being said, there's a few security officers she trusts (Jed Rosensteel, Bastion of Justice to name one), since they are *not* assholes, and actually listen to what she has to say, as well as handling things professionally and without needless violence or backhanded insults.

I hope I've made my thoughts clear. It's difficult sometimes, and I'll be monitoring this thread so I can clarify what I'm trying to say, as well as continue to contribute to the discussion.

[josh1133]

Conservan Xullie I believe is the correct spelling. And Jade Rathel isn't an engineer that I know of. Also you listed Roy Wyatt twice (though I thought that was intentional at first)

 

...Least I got the name right! God damn it. Ill fix that. On a side note:

 

She turns and he yells "get on the ground". She signs at him, to ask if he signs, and what is wrong, then suddenly, she's on the ground unconscious. She was then cable tied and dragged to security. She was released less than two minutes later with no charges. Was this a completely valid arrest? Sure, I don't deny it. Did it warrant waving a taser and tasering someone for standing up for a moment too long? Hell the fuck no. Security should NOT be going in to a situation expecting to just taser everyone involved. That is not how it works. My character would have willingly walked herself to security if asked. Instead she went completely unspoken to until an officer showed up IN SCIENCE to taser her. The officer was never punished, though he did receive multiple incident reports from characters that round.

 

...This wasn't me right (( Carton))? I remember at one point I was told by the AI someone was breaking into the RD office and they were gathering dangerous materials and I remember rushing there, I think it was a Tarajan if I remember right, I don't know if I tased them or not and I don't remember them signing at me but I do remember the rest, but Im actually generally nervous now that I crossed the line from "Dick in Security" to "Security absolute shit"

[Flamingo]

I don't think it was you. I have no recollection of who exactly it was at this point, but it was incredibly frustrating to deal with.

[Tenenza]

Okay, so, just to set a bit of the record straight.

I was the Mod that handled the case with Nasir welding Jade into a Locker, and then landing 30 mintues in a cell for it.

I investigated the situation, and checked with almost everyone involved with it, got everyone's side of the story, and cross referenced all my data.

So, here's what happened:

Jade insults Nasir. They've got this long standing grude of sorts.

Jade throws her armor at Nasir, because that's the type of person she is.

Jade goes SSD.

Nasir welds Jade into a locker, not aware that Jade is SSD (Based on Voltage's rather bad internets and cases of DCing, it appears Jade was awaken when they were being placed in the locker, but DC'd sometime before the locker was properly welded. Voltage was unable to be reached at the time of investigation to confirm this, but Voltage didn't seem to raise issue at this at any point.)

Security arrests Nasir.

Security puts Nasir in for 20 minutes for assaulting an officer and refusing to either confess or speak at all during his interogation.

Command gets word of this, and points out how it's also illegal internment.

HoS, who joined after the event happened, and how little to no idea what the situation was on that, agreeded that it was illegal internment.

HoS, not knowing the specifics behind the situation, tells the Warden to add illegal internment to the charges, and add the time for that.

This brings Nasir's time to 35 minutes.

The Warden decides that is too much, so they only modify it to 30 minutes.

The situation was eventually resolved, to what I hope was the satisfaction of everyone involved.

But, this does show one rather large problem here.

People seem to forget how slowly time passes in those cells.

20 minutes is a fairly long time to be taken out of the round, and nearly doubling that to 35 is pushing it way beyond the limit.

Ultimately, I just enforce the rules here, I don't make them, and IC-Gruding and Dickery are not against our server's rules.

So, I'm not going to clean your clock for doing that.

I'm going to let the duty officers do for me.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Wow OK I really don't have the time in the day ATM to read all these responses but I had a conversation about this exact thing so I might as well state my side even if it's a derail.

I was the Investigator present, and let me restate my position:

Nasir has a criminal profile. The only thing that prevents my detective's from leaving comments saying such on his record at the start of every shift is the fear of being accused of 'metagrudge' even though most of the incidents are bloody canon.

Nasir has attacked people before. Nightmare, we had a character complaint where an overwhelming amount of people cited specific instances where Nasir attacked officers.

But that's a separate issue from the specific Jade issue.

As I said, I was investigating the situation. I'm wandering down the hall to someplace I was told Nasir is, and he barrels past me. I go "Nasir." three times, he ignores me. Beepsky suddenly stuns him because he's marked for arrest, which makes me laugh because it interrupted his bad-ass silent walk, but I held him until [forgotten] officer comes to escort him to the brig, because detective's aren't supposed to make arrests outside extraneous circumstances, and standing in the hall wasn't exactly an extenuating circumstance when an officer was literally right there and available.

We go into processing, and I sit down and ask him what's up. He just states "I'm not going to talk to you." and is generally uncooperative. Now. From what I had heard from Jade, (who was unable to elaborate further because SSD) he grabbed her and locker her in a locker for calling him a cat. This fits the established profile: Nasir is on a hair trigger.

I originally want to push battery because Buth would look out for a fellow cat, but Nasir is again, hardballing her at every chance he can get. So she advises, again advises the Warden and HoS to push an assault charge. I originally meant minor assault, but I concede I probably didn't include 'minor' in the advisement. After that, I gave Nasir completely to the Warden and gave my case report (The transcript of the interview where he confessed) and his mugshot. The HoS was then made completely aware of the interrogation, case itself, and the advisement my investigator gave for an assault charge of which he had full power to go "thats excessive" to which Buth would huff but accept because she doesn't determine brig time.

My problem is not that Natalie got his time reduced, that's fine. My only issue is a niggling one that she jumped rank by going to the Captain rather than the HoS, but that's not really against regs, just kinda shizzy to do.

What happens next however, I do not approve. I was shat all over by Natalie and the Captain as if I set the time myself. She wanted to brig me for neglect of duty, and the Captain told me that criminal profiles are not allowed to be made and to treat every crime as if it was the person's first as soon as a shift end, which I thought was stupid IC and OOC but whatever.

During this entire thing I followed regs. I didn't powertrip, I didn't shitcurity. I investigated a crime, created a case, and handed off my evidence and assessment to my superior to act on.

Whether or not I made the right call is an IC issue to make, not an indication of me being shitsec.

[Jamini]

My problem is not that Natalie got his time reduced, that's fine. My only issue is a niggling one that she jumped rank by going to the Captain rather than the HoS, but that's not really against regs, just kinda shizzy to do.

Incorrect, I talked to the HOS the entire time you were in processing. When he continued to ignore me despite being a witness to the entire event, I went to the captain. It's not shizzy in the least. the head of security wasn't doing his job right and he frankly deserved to be re-primed.

 

What happens next however, I do not approve. I was shat all over by Natalie and the Captain as if I set the time myself. She wanted to brig me for neglect of duty, and the Captain told me that criminal profiles are not allowed to be made and to treat every crime as if it was the person's first as soon as a shift end, which I thought was stupid IC and OOC but whatever.

 

I never once stated I wanted to brig you for neglect of duty, but considering that you essentially were pushing for an extremely trumped up charge I would have been happy if you had been.

[Guest]

What happens next however, I do not approve. I was shat all over by Natalie and the Captain as if I set the time myself. She wanted to brig me for neglect of duty, and the Captain told me that criminal profiles are not allowed to be made and to treat every crime as if it was the person's first as soon as a shift end, which I thought was stupid IC and OOC but whatever.

 

Building criminal profiles and then giving someone a much more lengthy charge for their first crime in the shift because of past crimes from shifts nobody gives a literal fuck about anymore is highly stupid ICly and OOCly, too. Double jeopardy is not okay to exercise at all.

You may double sentences in which the person committed the same crime twice in different circumstances and it goes to show that they haven't learned anything from it, but first-time-arrests in a shift are not to exceed the maximum sentence for a charge as per Corp Reg. Being a cock to someone who is an even bigger cock is not justice.

[Guest Menown]

Yes, Nasir got the shit end of the stick. Yes, he was in there /originally/ for thirty minutes.

But, through my efforts, as well as that of Jamini, and Delta, we got the charge down by twenty minutes. Voltage was dropping connection the whole time, so you can't hold him liable for any of it, barring him throwing the armor in the first place.

That's all. There's no need for a PSA, or any of this shit that's been going on. The issue was resolved ICly, and treated effectively. Shitcurity doesn't happen often, because we do have some damn fine officers/Heads to stop it from being shit.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Incorrect, I talked to the HOS the entire time you were in processing. When he continued to ignore me despite being a witness to the entire event, I went to the captain. It's not shizzy in the least. the head of security wasn't doing his job right and he frankly deserved to be re-primed.

 

Oh! Well, I do remember someone kept pushing for me to be charged with neglect of duty. I apologize if I misremembered it to be your character, but it was someone.

 

I never once stated I wanted to brig you for neglect of duty, but considering that you essentially were pushing for an extremely trumped up charge I would have been happy if you had been.

I didn't push it tho. I said it like once, when Nasir confessed twice to assault.

 

Building criminal profiles and then giving someone a much more lengthy charge for their first crime in the shift because of past crimes from shifts nobody gives a literal fuck about anymore is highly stupid ICly and OOCly, too. Double jeopardy is not okay to exercise at all.

nononono ok so

IC'ly

He confessed. There was no reason to not believe his confession. I wish I saved the interview log or showed you the case report because this was all there. He stated several times in Buthaynah's interview with him that he refused to talk to Buthaynah, but then confessed. Word for word it was like

"Will you answer some questions?"

"No."

-small push to get questions, same 'no.' replies-

"Okay. Will you confess that you assaulted Jade?"

"Yes."

"... You confess you /assaulted/ Jade? Would you sign a confession form stating this?"

"No."

- end interview -

She got up and told the Warden She advised him to stick an assault charge. She then printed out the transcript and gave her case report to the HoS.

WTF does Buthaynah do? SHe gave him the chance to help me make sense of the situation, and he refused. Buthaynah isn't going to bend over backwards for Nasir.

Nasir's history of being brigged and behavior "let's get this over with" gave me zero IC reason to believe he didn't understand what he was confessing to. I'm not going to pretend that some career thug is too stupid to know how the brig works.

 

Building criminal profiles and then giving someone a much more lengthy charge for their first crime in the shift because of past crimes from shifts nobody gives a literal fuck about anymore is highly stupid ICly and OOCly, too. Double jeopardy is not okay to exercise at all.

 

"Double jeopardy is a procedural defence that forbids a defendant from being tried again on the same (or similar) charges following a legitimate acquittal or conviction."

??????? Delta this applies to the same crime. Under this logic, when you get pulled over and an officer is obviously trying to let you off with a warning, you accuse him for double jeopardy for writing up every citation he possibly can when you go full hood rat on him then confess to speeding anyway.

Sue would be great to have in this conversation. If someone regularly assaults people and gets jailed, and gets known in the county he's in for being an assailant, the cops are going to slowly increase the severity of the punishment. Hell, there's the stupid three-strikes rule. It's the basic foundation of deterrence. I'm not a personal subscriber to deterrence, I don't adhere to it. But Buthaynah, when you don't let her help you, completely is.

And that's not. Even. The point of this debate. It's the fact Nasir got the wrong charge. In which, with the magical power of hindsight, I see now. But this mistake doesn't make me shitsec. It doesn't make me responsible for the charge in the first place. If I told the Warden I advised mutiny charges, he'd be the one at fault for actually listening to such a stupid statement. I worked with the IC information I had, and I made a judgement call. Excuse me if that doesn't fit into your perfect little system of how things always have to work, resulting in me getting complained at/about in OOC for days after the incident by people who get way too heated.

Go practice yoga. Deep breathing. Shatter pottery. I don't know, stop acting like I'm a bad person for an IC mistake. It was an IC mistake and it was handled IC'ly.

 

[...] That's all. There's no need for a PSA, or any of this shit that's been going on. The issue was resolved ICly, and treated effectively. Shitcurity doesn't happen often, because we do have some damn fine officers/Heads to stop it from being shit.

 

Kiss me, you minx.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Marlon Phoenix

[keinto]

I think one of the core reasons Security is and should be set to a higher standard, both ICly and OOCly, is that a critical part of the department's function consists of putting people inside very tiny cells for several minutes at times, essentially prohibiting the player of most actions mechanic-wise, other than walking, and talking and communicating through the radio or PDA (unless your charge was Abusing Comms, or the Officer's player decides to be a shit and take both away when they shouldn't have). Corrupt, rude, or incompetent Officers can exist, but with thorough consideration of the players they are going to be temporarily taking out of the game by brigging them. If a Officer is going to be disrespectful, or cruel, they better provide engaging RP, but only in scenarios where it's just between the central characters and any evidence of unacceptable behavior near-impossible to obtain. If it becomes public, then you have to either void certain parts, or canonize CentComm's strict actions against your character.

On the other hand, when other departments get out of line, most of the time it's just not the same. As non-security, you're probably not going to lock other players inside an improvised cell for several minutes, or incapacitate them for a long period of time until Medical heals them, or kill them, unless you're a round antag. Conflict-wise, non-security members give a lot more freedom to the affected party when interacting. When security and a detainee are in conflict, inherently there is barely any freedom on how to deal with it for said detainee, and that is why the time a player is put inside a cell has to be OOCly scrutinized in terms of why they are there for any amount of time.

[Guest]

I see this is a heated topic. I've argued about security in great lengths over Skype and on the forums, so I'm not going into this again. I'll just say this:

Players on this server have different ideas on what Security should be all about. On one hand, a lot of people, including myself, think that security should aim at being a highly professional, efficient and fast team, handling everything as fast as possible so work can continue. On the other hand, there are people who think that security in general should reserve times to RP arrests and investigations, to interact with the crew.

These two things are not mutually exclusive. It's just that most officers are bad at that aspect or that non-antags just chose bad times to do shit they'll get arrested for.

Stop hating on fucking security, their main purpose they are there is so you can RP in safety and unhindered, without having to scream at each other and deal with chucklefucks. Instead, you expect security to both uphold impossible standards and RP, something which no other department is obligated to do.

Here's a few tips for the rest of the departments:

• Cargo - Stop being so fucking slow. Currently, I see anyone going to cargo unless they have to very unlikely. It takes ages to get something, either because the techs and the QM are off their workplace and in the bar, or because they are just slow. Sometimes, they demand to be payed so they mail shit to the respective reciever. Miners have also been slow since the change.
• Engineering - Stop complaining. You are the department with most freedom. No one bothers you inside your little kingdom, even security rarely goes there. You aren't even expected to be working unless shit's broken. Stop having characters that know every station system like they've spent 20 years in a college, when they are usually around 30 years old. Stop making gangs and militia, you're just greasemonkeys and greasecats.
  
• Medbay - Like Engineering, stop being hyper trained and job hopping, especially from science to medbay, constantly. It takes a long while to earn a doctorate. No, your 25 yo old doctor characters can't have five of them. You do the same thing security does, cycle people in and out like a revolving door, rarely any RP at all.
  
• Science - Stop being fucking useless. Start doing actual science. There is a million things you can do other than chucklefuck with telescience and turn yourself into a slime. I remember when I first joined the server, started with science. It was fun then. I was a xenoarcheologist and argued with a Skrell anomalist for hours over my finds, forming hypothesis. Doing paperwork. Heading for a beer when I was done. It was fun. Honestly, science is shit today.

 

So, as a summery, how about we stop shitting on security and have a look at the other departments. I think security here is fine compared to most of the servers, whatever people say.

[SgtSammac]

I see this is a heated topic. I've argued about security in great lengths over Skype and on the forums, so I'm not going into this again. I'll just say this:

Players on this server have different ideas on what Security should be all about. On one hand, a lot of people, including myself, think that security should aim at being a highly professional, efficient and fast team, handling everything as fast as possible so work can continue. On the other hand, there are people who think that security in general should reserve times to RP arrests and investigations, to interact with the crew.

These two things are not mutually exclusive. It's just that most officers are bad at that aspect or that non-antags just chose bad times to do shit they'll get arrested for.

Stop hating on fucking security, their main purpose they are there is so you can RP in safety and unhindered, without having to scream at each other and deal with chucklefucks. Instead, you expect security to both uphold impossible standards and RP, something which no other department is obligated to do.

Here's a few tips for the rest of the departments:

• Cargo - Stop being so fucking slow. Currently, I see anyone going to cargo unless they have to very unlikely. It takes ages to get something, either because the techs and the QM are off their workplace and in the bar, or because they are just slow. Sometimes, they demand to be payed so they mail shit to the respective reciever. Miners have also been slow since the change.
• Engineering - Stop complaining. You are the department with most freedom. No one bothers you inside your little kingdom, even security rarely goes there. You aren't even expected to be working unless shit's broken. Stop having characters that know every station system like they've spent 20 years in a college, when they are usually around 30 years old. Stop making gangs and militia, you're just greasemonkeys and greasecats.
  
• Medbay - Like Engineering, stop being hyper trained and job hopping, especially from science to medbay, constantly. It takes a long while to earn a doctorate. No, your 25 yo old doctor characters can't have five of them. You do the same thing security does, cycle people in and out like a revolving door, rarely any RP at all.
  
• Science - Stop being fucking useless. Start doing actual science. There is a million things you can do other than chucklefuck with telescience and turn yourself into a slime. I remember when I first joined the server, started with science. It was fun then. I was a xenoarcheologist and argued with a Skrell anomalist for hours over my finds, forming hypothesis. Doing paperwork. Heading for a beer when I was done. It was fun. Honestly, science is shit today.

 

So, as a summery, how about we stop shitting on security and have a look at the other departments. I think security here is fine compared to most of the servers, whatever people say.

 

Where is the like button? xD

[mrimatool]

I see this is a heated topic. I've argued about security in great lengths over Skype and on the forums, so I'm not going into this again. I'll just say this:

Players on this server have different ideas on what Security should be all about. On one hand, a lot of people, including myself, think that security should aim at being a highly professional, efficient and fast team, handling everything as fast as possible so work can continue. On the other hand, there are people who think that security in general should reserve times to RP arrests and investigations, to interact with the crew.

These two things are not mutually exclusive. It's just that most officers are bad at that aspect or that non-antags just chose bad times to do shit they'll get arrested for.

Stop hating on fucking security, their main purpose they are there is so you can RP in safety and unhindered, without having to scream at each other and deal with chucklefucks. Instead, you expect security to both uphold impossible standards and RP, something which no other department is obligated to do.

Here's a few tips for the rest of the departments:

• Cargo - Stop being so fucking slow. Currently, I see anyone going to cargo unless they have to very unlikely. It takes ages to get something, either because the techs and the QM are off their workplace and in the bar, or because they are just slow. Sometimes, they demand to be payed so they mail shit to the respective reciever. Miners have also been slow since the change.
• Engineering - Stop complaining. You are the department with most freedom. No one bothers you inside your little kingdom, even security rarely goes there. You aren't even expected to be working unless shit's broken. Stop having characters that know every station system like they've spent 20 years in a college, when they are usually around 30 years old. Stop making gangs and militia, you're just greasemonkeys and greasecats.
  
• Medbay - Like Engineering, stop being hyper trained and job hopping, especially from science to medbay, constantly. It takes a long while to earn a doctorate. No, your 25 yo old doctor characters can't have five of them. You do the same thing security does, cycle people in and out like a revolving door, rarely any RP at all.
  
• Science - Stop being fucking useless. Start doing actual science. There is a million things you can do other than chucklefuck with telescience and turn yourself into a slime. I remember when I first joined the server, started with science. It was fun then. I was a xenoarcheologist and argued with a Skrell anomalist for hours over my finds, forming hypothesis. Doing paperwork. Heading for a beer when I was done. It was fun. Honestly, science is shit today.

 

So, as a summery, how about we stop shitting on security and have a look at the other departments. I think security here is fine compared to most of the servers, whatever people say.

 

420 praise it.

Also sidenote; engineering has been a gang so long as I can remember, they're a clique and no they're not as welcoming as people claim they are. I've tried multiple times to get back into engineering since I've come back and my characters haven't been treated all that greatly. Security are scared of pissing off engineering, pretty much everyone is. Engineering can be bullies, so can security. Also on the way of 'committing small crimes' engineering breaks into their CO's office every round there's no CE so........

[Tainavaa]

[*]Medbay - ... You do the same thing security does, cycle people in and out like a revolving door, rarely any RP at all.

 

I disagree. I won't elaborate. But I disagree.

Everything else though, I agree on. I haven't read the other department descriptions you gave so I have no opinion but people talk down on security for absolutely no reason other than because they can't do what they want to. No, security is here to ensure the station is running smoothly and the station is secure. Part of that is policing the employees. I don't let security into the medical bay on the principle that people shouldn't just go into other peoples work areas for no reason. Even as a CMO I don't encroach on genetics or chemistry unless I need to or I get permission from the workers in that area. However if they have a legitimate reason I'll let them in. There are the select individuals who think they're above the law but generally, security is fine. Except for the officers that belittle and otherwise promote a hostile work environment. Part of their job is keeping that stuff from happening. Security is held to a higher standard because they're supposed to demonstrate the expectations they enforce on the crew. It's called leading by example.

[Guest]

Sue would be great to have in this conversation. If someone regularly assaults people and gets jailed, and gets known in the county he's in for being an assailant, the cops are going to slowly increase the severity of the punishment. Hell, there's the stupid three-strikes rule. It's the basic foundation of deterrence. I'm not a personal subscriber to deterrence, I don't adhere to it. But Buthaynah, when you don't let her help you, completely is.

 

We're not cops. As much as I would like it if we were held to the same values and procedures as cops, it isn't how it works right now.

And this is a game that manages to pull off a science fantasy workplace simulator, somehow. Escalating by brigging people for additional offenses for non-current related stuff is not fun. Remember what you said about trying to keep people out of the permabrig, among a lot of people?

I shouldn't have to hop directly into your lane because I'm hearing a bunch of bullshit about department wars and inter-departmental strife, and initially I told the HoS to solve the issue. He answered by trying to give Nasir an assault charge.

You people need to start making judgements with good intentions in mind, even if the suspect is an absolute piece of shit that deserves no pity, they're still persons and players just like everyone else.

You're a fucking duty officer. Make the IC incident report yourselves, you're not biased for being involved in the situation. You were also not the problem personnel I was ready to lay the termination smack down on, the Warden and the HoS were both on my shitlist for exercising judgement with bad intent.

[Jamini]

Here's a few tips for the rest of the departments:

• Cargo - Stop being so fucking slow. Currently, I see anyone going to cargo unless they have to very unlikely. It takes ages to get something, either because the techs and the QM are off their workplace and in the bar, or because they are just slow. Sometimes, they demand to be payed so they mail shit to the respective reciever. Miners have also been slow since the change.
• Engineering - Stop complaining. You are the department with most freedom. No one bothers you inside your little kingdom, even security rarely goes there. You aren't even expected to be working unless shit's broken. Stop having characters that know every station system like they've spent 20 years in a college, when they are usually around 30 years old. Stop making gangs and militia, you're just greasemonkeys and greasecats.
  
• Medbay - Like Engineering, stop being hyper trained and job hopping, especially from science to medbay, constantly. It takes a long while to earn a doctorate. No, your 25 yo old doctor characters can't have five of them. You do the same thing security does, cycle people in and out like a revolving door, rarely any RP at all.
  
• Science - Stop being fucking useless. Start doing actual science. There is a million things you can do other than chucklefuck with telescience and turn yourself into a slime. I remember when I first joined the server, started with science. It was fun then. I was a xenoarcheologist and argued with a Skrell anomalist for hours over my finds, forming hypothesis. Doing paperwork. Heading for a beer when I was done. It was fun. Honestly, science is shit today.

 

So, as a summery, how about we stop shitting on security and have a look at the other departments. I think security here is fine compared to most of the servers, whatever people say.

 

Can't say I really see these.

 

• Cargo - assuming they have staff, normally are pretty quick to get me my orders? Nonhuman gloves, 200metal, 100glass, and sometimes a supermatter crate/hull circuit crate/electrical crate as my department needs. Normally if I send someone I can expect to have it in 10-15 minutes, less if I go personally. Had the same experience when I go as Omnir to get nonhuman sterile gloves or medical crates. Normally if I can't get cargo on the line, I can get the HOP/Cap/AI to help me out.
• Medbay - I ... can't even name a doctor who really seriously job hops. Yes, there is a bit of cross training within medical itself (between chem, surgery, and general practice. Less so with cloning/genetics) but mostly that is done more to keep players conscious and able to play, rather than dead. If anything, I'd argue that some certain doctors care too much about their personal rp and too little about the patients. The the point where I've seen people die from sheer negligence several times.
  
• Science - Science is and remains terminally understaffed. That said, robotics is normally pretty responsive and quick to requests. I'd love to see the materials lab actually make and distribute equipment more often, but I can understand why they don't (Because materials is boring once you know it).
  
• Engineering - Honestly, the gang and militia mentality of engineering stems from two things. The distance engineering has from the station, and the abuse that engineers need to put up with from security just for doing their damn jobs. I cannot count the number of times I've had or seen technicians who are doing very basic, or required work (for example, finding door codes.), harassed by security/the AI unless they do it in the safety of engineering. How about that lovely complaint just in this thread about breaking into the CE's office to open part of the department that is pretty much required to get the engine set up right? (those shutters are pointless, by the way. And I can't think of any regular CE who gives a damn about it, because we all know that the engine produces jack shit for power unless the tanks are filled.) Can we touch on the verbal abuse the engineers get when they are fixing one vital area (say a central hallway, atmos, or EVA) and another one (like the research dock) needs to be put off? How about the fact that they are by far the easiest of all departments for merc teams to kidnap/take hostage/kill?
  
  
  
  To be blunt, engineering isn't appreciated nearly as much as a whole as it should be. While yes, there are certainly lazy and ineffecient engineers. That said, if you treat an entire department who has likely been working all shift without break like shit, don't be surprised when they start taking on an us vs you mentality. Is it right? Hell no. Is it understandable? Yes.

 

No offense Boka, but your security background is really, really obvious here. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but do try and remember that everyone has bias in this. Not a single person here is neutral when it comes to interdepartmental stuff, nor should they be.

[Guest]

I never said I was neutral. I never said that security doesn't have problems. I never said that security is never shit. What I said is that EVERY department is shit at times and has massive problems, while security is the only one who gets called for it, because, somehow, they ruin the RP of everyone.

How about all the complaints that engineering got for releasing the singulo or plasma in their department? There are none you say? Ohh... well, I guess engineering is underappricated. Science? Being blown up? Yep, standard. Medbay, patients dying? Normal. And how the fuck is 10-15 minutes not slow? It takes 5 minutes max to get your package to you.

The point is, even if shit above is not representative of the departments as a whole, somehow, a couple of bad Officers/HoSs are representative of Security. I've never had a complaint about my HoS or Captain posted. I've made mistakes, did shit, but it could mostly be boiled down to incident reports or stupid on the call decisions. If that happens, I suspend my character from security. Yet again, I have no trouble on how security is suppose to be run. It's fine as it is. None of the good HoSs have.

Players failing to fill the standard is not tied to any fabricated epidemic concerning security, it's a case to case issue. There are bad players all around. Are bad cases tolerated? If we look at the incident reports, no, they are not. Maybe, just maybe, the reports are being ignored because, someone, somewhere, thinks that a couple of shitcurity officers is good for RP or adds to their character's flavor.

You can point out on how security is treating you like shit, but I don't buy that, because I never put people intentionally into perma and bar them any RP, unless I absolutely have to. If they are harrasing your engineers, maybe the officers are assholes. If it happens, just fucking tell the staff, file a complaint. Do not rip security a new one just because you felt hurt at isolted instances. And hacking is not tolarated just because you have access to hacking tools and gloves, as it's to be used if there are no other options. Some way the Warden can't take laser rifles and go have some harmless fun with it, or how officers get demotions for wasting flashbangs for no reason, regardless if anyone was cought in it. Engineering is not above the fucking regulations and you'll get fucked if you break them, same as any other crew.

As I've pointed out before, the real epidemic is that people don't know what the fuck they really want. They should get their shit together before they start trying to open security a new asshole.

[Jamini]

I can agree with that.

 

• Engineering - I uh... can't actually really recall the last time I've seen a release. I've only seen like, one, in the last month or so I've been here. Plasma leaks? Bias here, personally, but I'm pretty quick to clean those up myself. As are most regular engineers. The only time I've seen a serious fire that didn't result in a near-instant ban for the person involved was one that I set accidentally while doing the deathtrap event... which was 100% noncanon. (and I DID get yelled at for it by the captain at the time, as it caused a death. Plus everyone got pay cuts.)
  
  
  
  People tend to forget that without working engineers you have no power. Without working engineers a breach never goes away. Without working engineers the station as a whole is much, much more lethal. It is the only department that has a 100% mandatory minimum 15 minute startup procedure, in addition to getting equipped and organizing their stuff. During a busy shift, it's pretty common for engineering to have no breaks or time to passively roleplay at all. This can happen even during extended if the RNG decides to roll a 7 biohazard or meteor collision. The sign that engineering is doing their job is that everything is running smoothly with the station. People often forget that, and it's very hard to appreciate that.
   
  
• Science - Last time a regular blew up part of the toxins lab/themselves, I put up an incident report on them and they were made into a MMI-mech for the round (It was an IPC). A certain telescientist also has a complaint and incident report on him currently. Let's not count the amount of times science gets yelled at for not properly announcing bomb tests.
   
  
• Medical - I'll agree, patients dying in medical is a very real issue. It's probably my biggest gripe with the department is the sheer amount of negligence and incompetence that can be seen there. Doubly so when I see regulars complaining that medical is too well cross trained when people are still dying of negligence or incompetence. I will point out we had a situation of this just yesterday with an understaffed medbay. (An intern failed to use dialysis, as she didn't know how, while I was busy OOCly trying to teach our chemist how to use the chemmaster).
   
  
• Cargo - Five minutes for the package, plus anything else they have to do before delivery. Not including the fact that I may be busy fixing things while I wait on my orders. I guess it's just different expectations. I personally don't go to cargo if I need something /now/.
   
  
• Hacking and Wire codes - Engineers are honestly expected to know the wire codes and how to hack doors. It is literally their most common part of the job, and explicitly in the job description for electricians. Quite frankly, any engineer that doesn't know how to hack should seriously reconsider their job choice for that character. It's not 'breaking into the armory to have a laser rifle' or 'throwing flashbangs for no reason'. It's on the level of 'making sure you have handcuffs, pepperspray, a flash, your taser, and your baton charged and on your belt.'
  
  
  
  Hell. I explicitly order someone to get the codes for each wire, write them down, and distribute them to every member of engineering as chief engineer. Sometimes I will include cross-trained atmospheric techs. It is that important of a tool for the department.

 

Honestly? Security rarely treat me like shit. Why? I'm generally respectful to them, or try to be unless they are trying to act above their station.

That said, I've seen plenty of security members go well out of their way to be dicks to others and get away with it for longer than they should have. That's an issue. When an officer, for example, thinks they can pepperspray and arrest someone for "Not saying sorry" for an event that didn't even occur on shift? That's an issue, and it needs to be curbed by sec and command ICly. (Thankfully, that situation WAS. However it could easily have not been if it hadn't occurred in medbay, in front of the HOP and Captain, AND I hadn't explicitly complained.)

[Prospekt]

What jamini wrote, most of the people on station treat security like shit then wonder why they are getting insulted by security. Sure security need to be a little more peaceful and ignore the idiots but some people really ask for problems on station. I've seen about half the characters rp'd on aurora not having respect for security, (e.g calling them redcoats or generally thinking they are bad people). I'm generally going to just not help anyone who insults me because I'm doing my job. Yes, even if they are in danger. I'll do this until they learn, because honestly you put a big sign on security's forehead saying "Hey I'm an insult taker machine, insert an insult today!"

None the less you are recruited by a professional company, act like you would if you had a real job irl. In reality if you were going around spewing insults to everyone and their mother around station you'd be fired on the spot.

Also another pet peeve of mine that is kind of off topic but links with some security officers is how you guys will literally not give two shits for a hostage during a nuke round. You do realize they are willing to put a bullet in another one of your co-worker's skull, right? Or even worse sell them to slavers which is horrible-- and yet this is a heavy rp server but I've yet to see anyone rp accordingly to fear rp of your co-worker being taken hostage and threatened with death. Think about it too, you could be the next hostage. For people who fear rp in these situations, you know who you are and I thank you.

Quit treating security like shit and you won't be treated like shit, simple as. You've probably heard the phrase a thousand times, "Treat someone how you want to be treated."

Also if there are duty officers on, please just fire whoever causes general drama problems with one another, it shouldn't be tolerated in a work environment.

edit: sorry for sugarcoating sec, some of you need to be fired too, thank you.

[josh1133]

I actually have a few questions for Jaimi now that they make a few points as at first I thought this was about officers like Carton and Jade but now you are listing things I don't believe either of us had done?

First thing first, who harrasses Engineering? I mean, besides Nasir when we get into a verbal fight I don't remember many officers even speaking to engineering in general as the whole "Pack" mentality caused them to try to avoid each other most of the time. The only time I remember a officer harassing engineering recently was a new guy telling Oliver Stefan to take off his mask, which if you read his security record you would know that would kill him. But the moment Stefan told us on Comms, Security jumped on that guy and made him back off before apologizing to Stefan? Maybe I'm just missing it but besides Nasir who we mostly hold a grudge against IC, I'm curious as to who is doing this?

I mean....Unless a engineer just starts doing repairs and the AI tells us something is wrong, we don't tend to walk over and go "What are you doing", at least I don't. I just would like to know these officers names now because...Maybe I just miss it? I tend not to patrol in pairs as I don't roleplay much and AFK often when patrolling so I guess I am just missing it?

I mean, the only times I really know Security going after someone is when we are insulted or someone who has made a /very/ bad impression (( For example, Kingmatt's characters tend to always cause Security to want to rip their hair out...all of them)), minus Jade who starts the shift off by going "Hey losers" but once getting to know her you realize she isn't really insulting you its just how she speaks, I don't know who else really goes out of their way to random people and is a bully?

I'm not saying we aren't bullies at all, but unless we hate you or you insult us first I don't see us going up to the new guy and going "SUP LOSER" and slapping their work out of their hands like its high school, but if thats happening I would at least like to know the names, both as a person in security and as a mod.

[Cassie]

In my opinion, most of the station's security RP like shit (and I don't mean general interactions with them, I mean, RP'ing their job) when it comes to arresting and dealing with situations. I've only met four officers during my stay at Aurora that actually follow proper protocol and conflict management and also RP their arrests, and the rest I've met don't know squat about it. The difference between security and the rest of the departments (with the exception of command) is that security actually has the power to get away with most of their shit, even if it's brought to light, and has the power to overwhelm any person from any department if they decide to be shit. They have the most power, and by that extension have the most responsibility.

Yes, I've got characters who respect sec, some that are sec, and one even admires sec, but some of them don't - that's their personality. Should every employee be a goody two shoes who follows corporate regulations all the time? It's not like they break big corporate regulations that get noticed. No, just small things like, "Don't climb over the bar table when you're not a bartender and the bartender is not there.", sure, that's trespass, enforce that. But should nobody do it? No. Have you ever been in a workplace? People break the rules all the time, it's hilarious. What RP lala land are we living in? What would even be the point of fluff crimes? Unless you're planning to add corporate regulations to the rules.

If I've ever had a character who breaks the rules, it's IC'ly lead up to and fitting the character. Workplace incidents happen all the time, especially when you have a bar. I mean, playing as a bartender I've seen tons of barfights, not just two noobs punching at each other, but rather two friends who turned sour over a squabble and drunkenly had an argument that became heated. The two OOC players who controlled these characters are friends and were roleplaying a storyline.

Keep in mind this was an extended round and there were no antags. Security is called and they do their schtick of "You're under arrest for ____!" and flashed them both, placing them into the brig for hooliganism and assault - fair enough. I've had worse. I've had officers actually walk up to you and put cuffs on you right away while you're standing still. I remember leaving the bar to check up on how they arrested them. It went like this:

*Officers talk into sec radio*

*Puts them in brig cell.*

*Sets timer*

*Leaves*

No RP. No interaction. Nothing. For some this would be a good arrest but this was really silly, considering the two they arrested were good RP'ers.

That is a TG level of arresting people. Wow, you managed to flash and cuff someone and put them in the brig. Well done! *clap* Security has basically become powergamer central, people just focused on doing "IC jobs" well and not thinking of RP at all.

The security officer will now either return on patrol to scout for more baddies or go to the sec lounge/lobby even if he managed to see openings for RP. It's not like happens "sometimes" or "rarely" on occasion, this happens all the time with the goodsec being the rare occasion. If you don't think there's anything wrong with this, think of these situations (not all of them apply to Aurora, mind you):

1. You ask a bartender for a drink. The bartender gives you the drink and stays silent.

2. You're a Nuclear operative. No one knows you exist until the station explodes.

3. You're a traitor, you see the Captain, sleepy pen him and take his ID to steal your objective item and call the shuttle and take a secluded pod.

4. You're a doctor. You see a person vomiting in medbay lobby and it's not rush hour. You scan him and give him anti-toxin and say nothing before walking away.

5. You're ERT. The antag is holding someone hostage in medbay. You see an opening while that person is talking to you about his motives and shoot him, rescuing the hostage. You put cuffs on him and toss him in perma while you call the shuttle, you tell him to "Shut the fuck up" and continue not interacting with him. Day has been saved.

All these people efficiently did their IC job(s) and didn't do anything wrong, did they?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Guest

[Jamini]

I actually have a few questions for Jaimi now that they make a few points as at first I thought this was about officers like Carton and Jade but now you are listing things I don't believe either of us had done?

 

Just last night Bryce (he was an assistant at the time) started causing shit with Travis in the medical lobby. The officer who responded (Jed Rathel, not Jade, or something like that) basically immediately took Bryce's side and tried to force both participants to apologize for past miss-deeds. When Travis refused (with honestly, good reason. Considering he had indeed been fairly severely beaten by Bryce in the past) he was peppersprayed and immediately handcuffed, this continued until, thankfully, the captain stopped it.

I've aired previously some complaints against regarding Avery Dawkins and being rediculously disrespectful towards Khayyam, when the latter was a sole head of staff and trying to get information regarding an event that might have required an alert elevation. We've since come to an agreement on the matter, but the issue that it happened at all? Troublesome.

During the recent large altercation between Nasir and Jade, I've had Lily respond to a call that was in the process of being handled and was told as such, unnecessarily escalating the conflict. Mind, there was plenty else going on, but rushing over there when he co-worker is telling her that nobody is hurt and that it's being resolved? Problematic.

I've been a deliberately shitty HOP, and had to deal with Centurion/Ohm/A cadet talking about said prisoner's genitals and threatening to beat them for simply talking during an event round.

I've witnessed a chef threw a single floor tile (and immediately stopped afterwards) be given the full-on "ON THE FLOOR" scream with an aimed taser and thrown in the brig with nary a word. Mind they were a baldie, so RP isn't necessarily expected, but nevertheless it fits the same modus operati of my complaints.

Or should I go into the past where S'id put Tal into a cell for thirty minutes over a vandalism charge? A charge that Sairis has requested, then been outraged at when she realized exactly how long her apprentice was put in the brig for?

 

---

---

 

I'm not trying to be a ass here, but even good security here can and do make mistakes and can show some pretty severe errors in judgement. Those little incidents really do add up over time, and it can really sour the image of the department.

Do I expect security to be the best of the best, uber-polite officer yes-sir's? No. But a little (or even a lot) of effort put towards improving security's image would go a very, very long way.

[josh1133]

Just last night Bryce (he was an assistant at the time) started causing shit with Travis in the medical lobby. The officer who responded (Jed Rathel, not Jade, or something like that) basically immediately took Bryce's side and tried to force both participants to apologize for past miss-deeds. When Travis refused (with honestly, good reason. Considering he had indeed been fairly severely beaten by Bryce in the past) he was peppersprayed and immediately handcuffed, this continued until, thankfully, the captain stopped it.

 

Troll character. He runs around with LoneTophat and claims to be related to Jade, but Voltage didn't approve this from my knowledge? Basically comes around to just troll, played by Rekjaki or whatever their Ckey is. As much as I like to not count them, it did happen and for that I apologize.

 

During the recent large altercation between Nasir and Jade, I've had Lily respond to a call that was in the process of being handled and was told as such, unnecessarily escalati

Or should I go into the past where S'id put Tal into a cell for thirty minutes over a vandalism charge? A charge that Sairis has requested, then been outraged at when she realized exactly how long her apprentice was put in the brig for?

ng the conflict. Mind, there was plenty else going on, but rushing over there when he co-worker is telling her that nobody is hurt and that it's being resolved? Problematic.

 

Its always better to have two officers on a situation in case there is a problem, its actually standard for another officer to head over because of possible dangerous situations. Unless there was three other officers around you, being alone is never a smart idea and its common practice as many a time we have told our team we have it handled only to be stabbed/ripped apart by hulk/ set on fire/ etc. It might not have happened during your incident, but she did the right thing by being safe then sorry, less you already had other officers there, but you didn't mention any others with you so I'm assuming no.

 

I've been a deliberately shitty HOP, and had to deal with Centurion/Ohm/A cadet talking about said prisoner's genitals and threatening to beat them for simply talking during an event round.

 

I never heard that but Im not on 24/7, no comment besides agree with you.

I wasn't there for the chef thing so again, I can't comment.

 

Or should I go into the past where S'id put Tal into a cell for thirty minutes over a vandalism charge? A charge that Sairis has requested, then been outraged at when she realized exactly how long her apprentice was put in the brig for?

 

I may not agree with Kiwi's way of handling HOS (( If this wasn't kiwi then I apologize to whoever plays the HOS)), and I remember you bringing this up before, but did you actually ask him why he did this? Because I remember you brought it up but you never actually asked him why he did what he did, and I think that may be a important piece of information before going "oh your bad sec". If he has no excuse, then I wont defend, but only hear one side of the story, a friend of yours I may point out, is not enough to say "Oh sec is out of control". When I hear Kiwi's side, then Ill make a decision on how well that situation was handled.

[Jamini]

Its always better to have two officers on a situation in case there is a problem, its actually standard for another officer to head over because of possible dangerous situations. Unless there was three other officers around you, being alone is never a smart idea and its common practice as many a time we have told our team we have it handled only to be stabbed/ripped apart by hulk/ set on fire/ etc. It might not have happened during your incident, but she did the right thing by being safe then sorry, less you already had other officers there, but you didn't mention any others with you so I'm assuming no.

 

Jade was in a locker being let out, and the situation was completely under control. There wasn't any fighting or situation going on. Nat had explicitly asked for nobody else to come to avoid escalating the situation further. Instead, security responded in force and turned a peaceful situation into a full-blown altercation. There was not any risk of a dangerous situation at all at any point, and I made that abundantly clear.

Honestly, It bad policy to butt into a situation that doesn't warrant an officer, much less two or three. If there had actually been any indication of violence I might have agreed with it, but all it did was add unnecessary stress and complication to an already messy and busy situation.

Really, if an officer doesn't want backup you shouldn't be forcing yourself on to them.