Player complaint - Icedcabbage, Liam Dozz

[Desven]

BYOND Key: Desven
Game ID: cbF-ab6K
Player Byond Key/Character name: Two players: Icedcabbage as Anderson Bhander and Liam Dozz (can't recall the ckey of them)
Staff involved: N/A
Reason for complaint: Poor antag play, murderboning.

I was changeling but I was a Vaurca Worker, so I couldn't really use my abilities or any defense really. What occurred was that we got in a situation where I took Liam Dozz to another Worker, Nul, so he could do some experiments (we got the Captain's approval for this and Liam was going to sign the forms downstairs). What happened was that, without a word, he began sucking both and attacking us. I feigned dead while he didn't notice and he sucked me (technically making me unconscious), slashed my legs then tossed me to disposals. He did the same to Nul, but Nul managed to get out. I didn't if it weren't because of the regeneration I would've died. I genuinely see no scenario where this would've been acceptable, it is a really dirty move for a fight, especially when you got the upperhand not only because you can render the others unconscious but also because both literally can't attack back (Workers can't throw punches and lorewise just run out of violent situations).

The other case is about as unacceptable, if not more, because I at least interacted with Liam before that occurred. When I got back on my feet Nul cried for help over the hivenet and I helped the Captain search him. We saw part of science was vented and that he was dragged out. I walked out to the asteroid and was told that he was already dead, so I went to reach for his body when Anderson jumped out of nowhere and, without a work, killed me with a pickaxe. Again I feigned death, but he was a ling too so I got absorbed.

I would like other players to speak up too. It seems Liam got killed quickly after by security because he likely attempted something similar, whereas Anderson went murderboning most of the department. In particular, I know Ronald Monday got typerushed by him, which is a really dirty tacting.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation?: No. I was somewhat salty and thought it was just me overreacting, until I thought more about it and turns out it was ahelp-worthy. Also, I saw Alb was AFK.
Approximate Date/Time: April 20th 2021, 9 PM Central.

[icedcabbage]

I will handle my part of this compliant and address a few things in it. I did not wordlessly kill you, over common comms since we were in space I gave you a total of six warnings to back off from the corpse, three verbal warnings and three physical warnings where I stabbed you then backed off to get you to run away, which you did not. When you approached again after the sixth warning in an attempt to grab the corpse I decided that was enough warnings to warrant killing you outright, you did not attempt to engage with me over comms or respond to my various warnings. Furthermore I did not kill Ronald Monday with a typerush, I simply stunned him with a parasting, hit him a few times with a weakened resonator blast so his partners would spend time getting him out of harms way instead of giving chase to me, then made my escape. In our final confrontation where I did kill him and absorb him, he made it very clear over comms that he wouldn't engage in conversation after that stunt, so I wouldn't either.

[Desven]

2 minutes ago, icedcabbage said:

I will handle my part of this compliant and address a few things in it. I did not wordlessly kill you, over common comms since we were in space I gave you a total of six warnings to back off from the corpse, three verbal warnings and three physical warnings where I stabbed you then backed off to get you to run away, which you did not. When you approached again after the sixth warning in an attempt to grab the corpse I decided that was enough warnings to warrant killing you outright, you did not attempt to engage with me over comms or respond to my various warnings. Furthermore I did not kill Ronald Monday with a typerush, I simply stunned him with a parasting, hit him a few times with a weakened resonator blast so his partners would spend time getting him out of harms way instead of giving chase to me, then made my escape. In our final confrontation where I did kill him and absorb him, he made it very clear over comms that he wouldn't engage in conversation after that stunt, so I wouldn't either.

I do not recall any radio warnings, but granted, I was busy checking sensors/talking via hivenet and med channel, as well as rushing with the Captain. There were only two people in medbay, I was one of them, and because I was bug and I got warnings (although I wasn't told what was it, in fact I thought it was the vampire that was killing Nul) I went to rescue the body from space. The ones I do recall where the ones you wrote, which were something along the lines of 'you will die out here', which I thought you meant it was because I had no suit and you didn't know Vaurcae don't need one. In fact, I didn't think of you as a threat when I saw you (and it took me a moment to see you, reviving reset my eyes and gave me back the blue filter, which is hard to see with) and thought you were trying to rescue too, until you began hitting me with a pickaxe. I couldn't just run away as you say because you kept striking and I can't hit back and because I can't regenerate on my own, so the screen and chat gets full with you are in pain messages. I decided to finally stay (I wasn't really hit that bad, in fact, I was still rather healthy) but pretend death before you absorbed me. I do not think there was enough dialogue, warnings or not, and you picked up on an easy target instead of properly roleplaying with me the scenario. I would've probably even let you absorb me loocly if you played your cards better than that.

[NikoTheGuyDude]

Hello, I am NikoTheGuyDude, a somewhat new player to aurora with something to share on this complaint that may or may not be relevant. I was observing at the time of this incident and sporadically saw things icedcabbage was doing, and witnessed a few things they did that you don't seem to know (that I think is a little fishy).

So, I first observed him when I saw he was hitting a vaucra (I think it was you, the ling vaucra, but I'm not totally sure) with a pickaxe, outside of toxins mixing, in vacuum. What I saw was you running from him while a borg (Robot) tried to stop him with flashes to no avail. You tried to scream for help over hivenet but was never able to give a location, so he eventually stabbed you to death and then stabbed Robot to death as well, before another vaucra appeared (I'm not sure where they came from). He then proceeded to kill this vaucra and tried to absorb you, to which you responded by waking up, getting killed again, getting sucked again, but before he could complete it, security arrived and scared him off. After this, sadly,I stopped observing for a bit, but I came back to see you in disposals (somehow), and him in maint, near command. I witnessed him wordlessly break into bridge, beeline for caps office, and take the ID and captain's voidsuit. After this, again, I stopped observing for a bit (I was cooking pizza IRL), and came back to see him in cargo, surrounded by 3 people, 2 of whicher were armed. One of these people was Ronald Monday, and the other, I sorta forgot. They both aimed disruptors at him and engaged in a bit of dialogue with him, with Ronald telling him to get on the ground, icedcabbage saying 2 sentences "Well well well" and "I guess there's nothing to do but surrender, huh?". After this, and about 2 seconds, icedcabbage ran towards Ronald and stunned him while he was typing (I know he was because he completed his sentence JUST after he was stunned), and then icedcabbage ran away into maint. After this, I remember icedcabbage falling out into space somewhere, breaking a bone, regenning, breaking into maint by breaking walls (not the shutters) from vaccum, before spotting Ronald again. No words were exchanged between the two parties, as icedcabbage broke down more walls, sprinted towards him, stunned him, and resonater-spammed him to death. After this, I ahelped him, to which alberyk responded. I gave him a bunch of details and this story. I was never given a ruling on this, which is why I'm posting here. Another notable thing is that it seemed he was attacking the shuttle by trying to break the cockpit window, but gave up and just surfed the side. It seems to me icedcabbage was interested in not roleplay, but simply doing as best as he could and playing as """efficiently""" as possible, but I'm not sure, and I hope I'm wrong.

I'm sorry for my foggy memory and holes in the story, but that's because 1. I was doing stuff IRL and 2. my memory just isn't that good in remembering tiny details. If there's anything else you want to know, feel free to ask me, I might be able to summon it up.

EDIT: Apparantly Ronald Monday said, over comms, "Next time I won't say hello" implying they would shoot on sight after the first encounter. Sorry that I didn't catch that.

Edited April 21, 2021 by NikoTheGuyDude
misinformation

[Susan]

I played this round as security and was entirely unengaged by the gimmick. Anderson Bhander is a well known perma-antag changeling/traitor/vampire; this is not the first time they have abused space mechanics, sat out on the asteroid for an extended period of time, leveraged the extreme overpowered capabilities of mining weapons (the KA, resonator, etc) in said vacuum, etc. In another round I dealt with them they ended up doing the same thing and had they not been caught in yellow dock and their head blown off the yakkety-saxing would probably have continued. 

They abuse changeling's revivals to harass and kill people who are forced to have to chase them into space, and if no one bites, they start breaking into areas from space to prompt a response. This is repeat behavior.

[icedcabbage]

Quote

3 hours ago, NikoTheGuyDude said:

So, I first observed him when I saw he was hitting a vaucra (I think it was you, the ling vaucra, but I'm not totally sure) with a pickaxe, outside of toxins mixing, in vacuum. What I saw was you running from him while a borg (Robot) tried to stop him with flashes to no avail. You tried to scream for help over hivenet but was never able to give a location, so he eventually stabbed you to death and then stabbed Robot to death as well, before another vaucra appeared (I'm not sure where they came from). He then proceeded to kill this vaucra and tried to absorb you

 

I will explain this from my point of view on the situation, at first before the two vaucra showed up it was only an Engineer out in space who came to my rescue, after RPing with them over comms, they got the hint that I meant no good and ran, before I could start chasing them the Lab Assistant Vaucra arrived and went into EVA with them. (Not sure on the reason, either to try and retrieve the KA they made or to help the Engineer)  But either way after talking with them over comms and trapping them outside by positioning myself in front of the makeshift airlock, I gave them a few seconds to run away before I started to give chase, the vaucra grabbed the KA from off the floor and tried to shoot me with it but because I was too close they couldn't fire. At this point the Cyborg arrived to their add and started flashing me, I am unsure why the vaucra didn't run by me to escape since due to the flash I couldn't see them and was out of the way of the makeshift airlock. The vaucra tried to run further out on the rock as the Cyborg flashed me repeatedly throughout the chase before I finally caught up to them. After they were down the cyborg attempted to drag the body back to the station which forced me to kill the cyborg as they refused to leave without taking the body and I wanted to absorb the body. Then the Medical Vaucra arrives and from my point of view ignores my warnings and threats I was shouting over comms, they didn't say a word as they attempted to drag the vaucra body away, so I stabbed them with a pickaxe to get them to back off, which they did not, this repeated three times before I finally decided this vaucra wouldn't leave unless they were dead.

 

4 hours ago, NikoTheGuyDude said:

before spotting Ronald again. No words were exchanged between the two parties,

This is false, we had a mutual agreement over comms with Ronald saying something like "Next time I see you I won't say hello" which obviously means he would shoot next time he saw me so in our next encounter I wasn't going to say hello either. After I absorbed him I helped him morph into his body so he could RP with the rest of security on the docks while I thought up a plan to get onto the shuttle without causing a shuttle grief.

 

2 hours ago, Susan said:

In another round I dealt with them they ended up doing the same thing

While yes I have done this gimmick once before, I only chose to do it again because 

A. I was a mid round antag and I needed a gimmick quickly since the end of the round was coming fast

B. There were no complaints brought up to me about it last time so I thought it would be fine to do it again.

[Desven]

1 hour ago, icedcabbage said:

I will explain this from my point of view on the situation, at first before the two vaucra showed up it was only an Engineer out in space who came to my rescue, after RPing with them over comms, they got the hint that I meant no good and ran, before I could start chasing them the Lab Assistant Vaucra arrived and went into EVA with them. (Not sure on the reason, either to try and retrieve the KA they made or to help the Engineer)  But either way after talking with them over comms and trapping them outside by positioning myself in front of the makeshift airlock, I gave them a few seconds to run away before I started to give chase, the vaucra grabbed the KA from off the floor and tried to shoot me with it but because I was too close they couldn't fire. At this point the Cyborg arrived to their add and started flashing me, I am unsure why the vaucra didn't run by me to escape since due to the flash I couldn't see them and was out of the way of the makeshift airlock. The vaucra tried to run further out on the rock as the Cyborg flashed me repeatedly throughout the chase before I finally caught up to them. After they were down the cyborg attempted to drag the body back to the station which forced me to kill the cyborg as they refused to leave without taking the body and I wanted to absorb the body. Then the Medical Vaucra arrives and from my point of view ignores my warnings and threats I was shouting over comms, they didn't say a word as they attempted to drag the vaucra body away, so I stabbed them with a pickaxe to get them to back off, which they did not, this repeated three times before I finally decided this vaucra wouldn't leave unless they were dead.

 

This is false, we had a mutual agreement over comms with Ronald saying something like "Next time I see you I won't say hello" which obviously means he would shoot next time he saw me so in our next encounter I wasn't going to say hello either. After I absorbed him I helped him morph into his body so he could RP with the rest of security on the docks while I thought up a plan to get onto the shuttle without causing a shuttle grief.

 

While yes I have done this gimmick once before, I only chose to do it again because 

A. I was a mid round antag and I needed a gimmick quickly since the end of the round was coming fast

B. There were no complaints brought up to me about it last time so I thought it would be fine to do it again.

I've done more memory recollection and I really had no idea you were antag. As I've said, I was busy with other stuff to read your radio threats, and the things you said to me there were too vague to be considered a threat, I really thought you were actually worried about my wellbeing. Even when you hit me I thought it was a misclick. Granted we both didn't communicate, but to be honest, you didn't have to kill me. It's not among us or something where finding you with a body is 'sus', and I didn't find you absorbing the body or anything, I thought you were just a bystander that didn't know how to react. Even if I saw you absorb the body, I would've just turned away if we talked about it, because I was ling too. This was an overescalation by your part.

[icedcabbage]

55 minutes ago, Desven said:

This was an overescalation by your part.

I don't see how this can be considered my fault, since by your admission you: didn't read, misinterpreted, and flat-out ignored all my attempts to escalate. I gave plenty of warnings which you didn't read, the single dialogue you did read you misinterpreted, and you flat-out ignored me stabbing you to get you to back off.  I did my best to attempt to talk to you, and remember you were the one being silent here as you attempted to drag off the body. It is an impossible standard to predict that you would somehow miss all my attempts at escalation and RP.

Edited April 21, 2021 by icedcabbage

[MattAtlas]

@Aboshedab and I will take this complaint with @Lemei's help. Expect a response within a few days.

[Shloopy]

Hey, So to explain my end. I was in talks with a mod simultaneously where I was warned while you dragged me down to science while hulked for failing to act aggressively as a vampire in that state. The moment that ended and I received the warning I took the aggressive approach they had recommended.  Going so far as to scream blood!!! on at least two occasions before violently grabbing you and doing the sip.  Now I'm not sure what you were trying to do by dragging me down there as I even covered for you with sec who questioned if you willingly took me there.

I'm a fairly new player and I'm picking up stuff as I go a majority of the time. Along with the lore. I haven't familiarized myself with Vaurca Mechanics as I don't play Vuarca so as a Janitor or Miner it would make more sense for me to find out IC.  

Edited May 3, 2021 by Shloopy

[MattAtlas]

We have looked over the logs and deemed the incidents mentioned in the original posts to be fine. You were given more than enough warnings (four) not to approach and at that point killing you was reasonable.

The other incident mentioned with Liam Dozz instead escalated from the antagonist using glare, which you replied to by shoving, and they escalated into kicks. All of this is reasonable escalation. The other incidents mentioned, like general complaints about antagonist behaviour during this round, have been addressed in the other complaint on the player in question.

[Desven]

19 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

We have looked over the logs and deemed the incidents mentioned in the original posts to be fine. You were given more than enough warnings (four) not to approach and at that point killing you was reasonable.

The other incident mentioned with Liam Dozz instead escalated from the antagonist using glare, which you replied to by shoving, and they escalated into kicks. All of this is reasonable escalation. The other incidents mentioned, like general complaints about antagonist behaviour during this round, have been addressed in the other complaint on the player in question.

I have a question, is shoving people to disposals during a fight allowed? I understand that he was antag, and I'm not upset that he reacted, rather, I think it's excessive to use disposals in an encounter.

[MattAtlas]

21 minutes ago, Desven said:

I have a question, is shoving people to disposals during a fight allowed? I understand that he was antag, and I'm not upset that he reacted, rather, I think it's excessive to use disposals in an encounter.

It's fine, but very circumstantial. It can be very lethal but also not depending on how close the disposals bin is, or if there's medstaff playing.

[Desven]

3 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

It's fine, but very circumstantial. It can be very lethal but also not depending on how close the disposals bin is, or if there's medstaff playing.

Oh, okay. Just wondering. If I recall correctly around two months ago there was a PR to make it even more lethal, and thus far I have never been able to save somebody that takes a trip down. I only survived because I was ling.

[Shloopy]

I've survived a few dips in as well. I think it mainly comes down to how you land.

[Desven]

Then it's all good. Imo it's still of poor taste, and I would avoid it (unless to dispose a body or something more flashy like that). Thank you everyone for taking your time.