Butterrobber202 Posted October 3, 2021 Posted October 3, 2021 this is far more discussion post than suggestion, but I make suggestions, so it's in suggestions, treat it as both types of posts.(it was also originally a stealth antag rant, but it evolved as I typed) First Issue: Information Game Ok, so do you every wonder why every antag and their moms go loud? It's actually pretty easy to answer, being a stealth antag is almost impossible. The main culprit is suit sensors, if you so much as touch someone with maxed suit sensors, medical will pretty much instantly know and start asking questions. This in itself isn't bad, but the fact they also have access to the exact coordinate position of the person in trouble is a HUGE disadvantage for an antagonist trying to kill/kidnap and so on without being detected. There are currently three counters to this that I know of: 1. Radio Jammers will block suit sensors in their radius, their disadvantage is that they deafen you as well, so you have no idea if back up is on the way. The improvised variation of the jammer only works for a few seconds as well. 2. Cutting Telecommunications, if you cut off telecomms or the NT Net, sensors shut off. The downside to this strategy is that it's hard to do remotely and can take quite a bit of prep work. Not to mention, Engineers will make it their number one priority to fix if there's nothing wrong with the Engine. 3. Stunlock. Just stunlock your foe, don't give them a chance to call for help, restrain them, then cut their sensors. The disadvantage here is that you have to rely on them not RNG'ing out of your grab when the stun wears down. Additionally, stunlocks only works with certain antag abilities, or chemical solutions. What this usually results in is that antagonists, usually played by new or mid-range experienced players are unsure how to get around the sensors issue outside of brute forcing it and hope you can get their sensors cut off before medical notices. Medical usually has atleast one or two people with their eyes glued to sensors, so it's a very lucky day for the antags if they're not caught instantly. Medical will ask on common, security will catch wind of it and instantly start running over. You usually have about 30 seconds to a minute to react to being caught before 3-4 Officers are ontop of you. That's not including the Investigators or Warden that will sweep the entire department camera network within ten seconds before the Officers reach the first door though. So, what's the ultimate problem here? Security and Medical are two of the most popular departments on the station, and are the two directly responsible for countering the Antagonist's actions. A fully stocked Security Team (4 Officer, 2 Cadet, 2 Investigator, Warden, HoS) is already a Ten versus One. Add Medical's support behind Security's numbers advantage and most antags won't stand a chance. The amount of information the crew has access to at any given moment can usually counter an antagonists movement rather quickly. Proposed Solutions for the Above Problems? 1. Remove Tracking Beacons as a Suit Sensor Option. Knowing someone is getting hurt is fine, useful, but won't instantly reveal an antagonist. As for Miners, Engineers, and others that go EVA often and need to be tracked down on the asteroid, they already spawn with GPS Equipment in their lockers. They'll just take those instead and be fine. If someone gets hurt, not due to an antagonist's actions, nothing stops them from calling out on the radio for help. 2. Have the Uplink Radio Jammer (read: not the improv one) disable camera coverage in their radius. Just temporarily depower the camera, without triggering the alarm. 3. Add an Encryption Key that grants immunity to radio jammers. Not sure about this one, but you would have to give up your department radio key for it work, or wear two headsets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second issue: Getting Spotted As it stands, when you get spotted as an Antagonist doing your antagonist business, you have two options. 1.) Kill whoever spotted you, fast. 2.) Threaten whoever spotted you, hope you put the fear of God in them. Option 1 isn't great in some cases, because killing someone is a pretty noisy affair, and people tend to run when attacked. In the case of Unathi and M'sai, you just can't catch them. Not to mention, people tend to salt about getting killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, varies from person to person though. Option 2 is usually worse than 1 because most characters will instantly march to Security and rat you at the moment you are out of sight. There are a few excellent RPers who will go through the trouble of being scared into silence, but most will tell Security. While discussing the issue in OOC, I proposed adding a new item to the uplink, an Amnesic Pen, that forces someone to forget the events of the last few minutes. Similar to the Vampire Bite effect, but this was met with resistance by a few players, stating that they'd rather just get killed. There's obviously no pleasing everyone, but if you don't try staff will start looking at your antag play with suspicion. So, outside of the Amnesic Pen, I have no real solutions for this one, so it's open for suggestions from the people reading this. -------------------------------- Third Issue: Forensics this one is less issue/problem/unwinnable and just PSA. 1. Use Cham Clothing, Infiltration Gloves, or Wet Rags to avoid Forensics figuring anything out. You can wipe down doors, items, almost anything and remove the forensics evidence. Downside is, it takes time. 2. blowing up the Forensics lab also works. ------------------------------ please post any other observable issues with antagonist play, from crew or antag perspective. I intend to take what's deemed useful and good from the thread to a dev and hit them over the head with it.
Carver Posted October 3, 2021 Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) For the first issue, I'd support the suggested number two or three. Particularly two, because it rewards observant Security already overseeing the situation while still giving you a 'blackout' to escape unseen. I heavily disagree with removing tracking, if only because tracking is a firm disincentive against wanton murderbone (and body disposal). The second issue feels like more of a matter of roleplay, with an almost impressive number of crew being immune to bribery out of some strangely twisted sense of morality. Even when said crew may express anti-NanoTrasen sentiments, they're still quite prone to snitching every little thing they see. I've never understood it. To further clarify the first paragraph and my opinion on tracking: I believe that murder should effectively never be silent, unless you're an absolute expert in setting up the perfect situation. I'm generally a fan of supporting stealth for gameplay/personal objectives that revolve around sabotage, theft and similar. Edited October 3, 2021 by Carver
Butterrobber202 Posted October 3, 2021 Author Posted October 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Carver said: To further clarify the first paragraph and my opinion on tracking: I believe that murder should effectively never be silent, unless you're an absolute expert in setting up the perfect situation. I'm generally a fan of supporting stealth for gameplay/personal objectives that revolve around sabotage, theft and similar. Murder is loud, should stay loud. I'm not against that, but the problem is that it's someone on the other side of the station discovering you, rather than people nearby. Again, this isn't the problem though, the problem is that Medical can then send Security to that exact location. I am not saying vital sensors should be touched at all.
Carver Posted October 3, 2021 Posted October 3, 2021 16 minutes ago, Butterrobber202 said: Murder is loud, should stay loud. I'm not against that, but the problem is that it's someone on the other side of the station discovering you, rather than people nearby. Again, this isn't the problem though, the problem is that Medical can then send Security to that exact location. I am not saying vital sensors should be touched at all. Ah. Again, I like the second suggested idea with the radio jammer - solely because blocking out a cam won't prevent people from knowing the crime, but it will give you a very strong opening to escape with minimal direction to pursuers.
Skull132 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 One further consideration. There's nowhere to really run for the antag. The entire station is controlled and inhabited by forces hostile to them. Not many people are willing to help take in an antag, for example. So a yet unanswered question is, where does an antag go after committing bloody murder?
Carver Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 6 hours ago, Skull132 said: One further consideration. There's nowhere to really run for the antag. The entire station is controlled and inhabited by forces hostile to them. Not many people are willing to help take in an antag, for example. So a yet unanswered question is, where does an antag go after committing bloody murder? On previous maps, I would have given you a very simple answer: Space. This will probably be the case again in NBT, and I would fathom a guess that if the shuttles aren't remotely controlled then they'll also be viable options for flight. For now though, the current map is rather miserable for flight given that the caves are mostly randomly generated and very often just a series of dead ends if you have no jetpack, explosives or mining equipment.
BunkyB Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 8 hours ago, Carver said: This will probably be the case again in NBT, and I would fathom a guess that if the shuttles aren't remotely controlled then they'll also be viable options for flight. I don't believe this will exactly be the case, using an overmap shuttle to escape has large issues you cannot avoid. The only real viable way to recover the shuttle, if it has been abandoned, lost or stolen, it to teleport onto it and pilot it away. From the teasers we've been given, there isn't a teleport beacon visible but I doubt there won't be one in the final product. Bays overmap generation does not guarantee an exoplanet with a breathable atmosphere, unless we've changed the code drastically, I think our version of the overmap won't generate a breathable atmosphere 100% of the time. This won't stop people from stealing the shuttle, but it is still important to know when antagging.
Carver Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 2 hours ago, BunkyB said: I don't believe this will exactly be the case, using an overmap shuttle to escape has large issues you cannot avoid. The only real viable way to recover the shuttle, if it has been abandoned, lost or stolen, it to teleport onto it and pilot it away. From the teasers we've been given, there isn't a teleport beacon visible but I doubt there won't be one in the final product. Bays overmap generation does not guarantee an exoplanet with a breathable atmosphere, unless we've changed the code drastically, I think our version of the overmap won't generate a breathable atmosphere 100% of the time. This won't stop people from stealing the shuttle, but it is still important to know when antagging. The value of fleeing into space, and by extension shuttle theft, is not a permanent escape but rather creating an exceptional amount of space from which to plan and/or act on your next move. Having a teleport beacon would be incredibly lame, though it is likely that it wouldn't be impossible to remove such a thing if it were there.
Zer0Winds Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 There's really no easy way to deal with this, honestly. I am one of those people that agrees honestly about the tracking. I don't think its necessary at all. If you want to be tracked, carry a GPS, not using this magical sensor equipment installed in every single iteration of pants, skirts, and dresses. Not even everyone should need to be tracked, and those that do, already get the GPS. For what reason does a Librarian, or a Bartender, or Generic NT Employee #4546(Assistant) need to be tracked? Of course it has its downsides, like Carver said, about wanton murderbone... but, I mean, isn't that an ahelp-worthy thing? If you truly believe the antag did something wrong, ahelp it. Also I seriously would hope it cuts the amount of people yelling about sensors on Common Radio every shift. Possible Suggestion to above? So, in writing this I had a thought. What about a middle ground? Exact coordinates are a bit of an issue, right? So, what about... less accurate location sensors? Not sure how it would work, nor how far to go. For example, one step below, would be the sensors saying what department you're in. "John - Cargo Department" "Sarah - Bar" but its... mainly the same issue just you won't have the x,y,z, which isn't even an issue in most cases for that. Less accurate could be "Main Level - Service Department" which could be anywhere from the library to the bar, or "Civilian Sector" which is the same but including Cargo. Or if you're EVA "Mines, [Z-Level]" "Space" etc. Also not sure how the code for that works, in regards to the map... Honestly again, probably the exact same issue, but considering how large the areas can be, that "Civilian Department" "Research Department" etc could at least give the antag a bit more time, if Security has to actually search the department instead of heading to the exact room immediately... Doesn't solve the camera issue though, that Butter mentioned but I don't think it needs to. If Security is being observant on cameras, well... I can't exactly fault them for doing their job. Anyway, random spitball suggestion, not even entirely well-thought out. That aside... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Similar to what Carver said, the issue with people reporting everything immediately without fear is indeed an RP issue, one that actually does irk me, which isn't a common thing on here for me. People are not often susceptible to bribes, they are paragons of morality, with no moral downsides. They can not be intimidated, they call almost all bluffs... Sometimes it borders metagaming in that latter offense. No one can be sure that you will comply with the fear/bribe/whatever RP and are more likely to just... err on the side of caution and not bother trying. I want to see more blackmail, more intimidation, more bribes. I also think that if you are one who would, put it in your exploitables. Seriously, it does help, and the very few times I've antagged, I noticed exploitables are not very often filled in any way.
Marlon P. Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 How would it affect things if crew were given incentives to cooperate with antagonists? There's little reason to betray Nanotrasen and any gimmick feels wildly out of character. We have two worlds where we live in a corporate dystopia and non-antags are the goons and our antagonists are the bad guys. In most media this is swapped so the "antags" are at least anti-heros. What if we switch around exploitables and instead make exploitables something NT has on YOU, and theyre optional and autogenerated, that only antags can help you resolve? "If the antag succeeds your sister gets her heart medicine." I'd help give an antag a gastric bypass surgery as an MD under that situation. And help them flee.
Carver Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Marlon P. said: What if we switch around exploitables and instead make exploitables something NT has on YOU, and theyre optional and autogenerated, that only antags can help you resolve? "If the antag succeeds your sister gets her heart medicine." I'd help give an antag a gastric bypass surgery as an MD under that situation. And help them flee. I have a firm disdain for anything auto-generated. I'm not against having optional variants of how your exploitables may be used, though, but I do like to use mine to give antagonists an offensive angle against my character rather than a supportive angle.
Marlon P. Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 4 minutes ago, Carver said: I have a firm disdain for anything auto-generated. I'm not against having optional variants of how your exploitables may be used, though, but I do like to use mine to give antagonists an offensive angle against my character rather than a supportive angle. An offensive angle against you removes your IC autonomy, and therefore you're an unwilling ally who will flip the moment you can. If you spawned with a note that Nanotrasen shot your dog and called your mother fat it's my argument that you'd be more willing to open a door to let an antag through. Autogeneration can be a bit awkward in specific circumstances but frees up a lot of prep work. You could still write your own. I'd rather just have some incentive generated for me personally. Circling back, this is again a small suggestion to my wider interpretation of OPs problem of how antags are stuck the moment they're noticed with no means of escape and few allies to facilitate any escape. We have a robust faction system and a removal of NTs monopoly. Converting vanilla antags into agents of factions can also provide a lot of assistance to the antagonosts via their allies.
Butterrobber202 Posted October 20, 2021 Author Posted October 20, 2021 thread necro, I still think Suit Sensor's Tracking Beacons are evil.
Carver Posted October 21, 2021 Posted October 21, 2021 And I still hold that antag options are primarily limited by the map's lack of escape avenues. On 03/10/2021 at 15:14, Butterrobber202 said: 2. Have the Uplink Radio Jammer (read: not the improv one) disable camera coverage in their radius. Just temporarily depower the camera, without triggering the alarm. And that this was your only good idea (of the 3 presented on beacons) in regard to any buff that would enable more stealth/getaways.
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