Bokaza, Raschnikova Captain

[mirkoloio]

BYOND Key: Mirkoloio

Player Byond Key: Bokaza

Reason for complaint:

Now, what I am going to complain about is something I whitnessed and observed very often. It's Bokaza's damn Rambo captain being in the first firing lane no matter what traitor attacks the station. In today's wizard round they yelled over the comms for me, the HoP at that time, to order Shotguns while they were running arround the halls on witchhunt while we had a totally working security team + AI. What I am trying to tell you is: Bokaza ignored the HoS completely from my PoV and screeched commands over the security line to the officers while fighting the Wizurd, totally ignoring the present and active HoS. What Irks me about this is that he/she is doing this every round something attacks the station. "Stamos, Order 3 hardsuits" "Stamos, Order loads of Shotguns" and so on. Now, as Charlie Stamos, the totally unkown HoP to the Station, asked her if he could have a shotgun it went like this here. Open the 2nd Spoiler, please

^^READ ME FIRST!^^

And as you can see here the point where she takes over a security role to fight the wizard and using Metagrudge-ey information thingy on Stamos to prevent them from having a shotgun and participating in the hunt. How'd she know he's not trained? How'd she know he isn't an ERT guy? How'd she know he isn't a HoS? She Did not know.

Approximate Date/Time: 7.04.2015 19:06|7:06pm GMT+1

Additional Notes: I'd like someone to talk to Bokaza about this, seeing that this can be very immersion killing at some point and is not really something the captain should do. Afterall we don't want Hopcurity. Means we don't want Capcurity either.

[Guest]

I'm not even going to bother.

[Guest Menown]

You were given a direct order from your Captain. You were told not to act as a security force, which a HoP isn't. I feel this complaint is without any warrant.

[mirkoloio]

Yeah Yeah. I get that point about me. It's not that I'm complaining that I can't Hopcurity. What my issue is that They're literally going gun first at every threat as captain even if there is sufficient Security members

[Alberyk]

Right, as one of the wizards during that round. Security was really small, even skull asked us to don't try to beat them, that is why i got no offensive spells or itens. For the shotguns, it was because I used emp after beind attacked with a flashbag by the security. But, Bokaza never tried to hunt the wizards, in fact, it was allowed for them to stay at the station and do what they wanted to do with the dead wizard. Also, he wanted to participate in the supposed witch hunt, in any way, the wizards never tried to hurt the crew, so the guns were probably there just in case of some kind of open and violent conflict. Still, the hop have an energy gun and a flash with him.

[Dreamix]

I feel that I should add something:

- I arrived just before the transfer-vote call

- Security was super understaffed, if I remember correctly, it was just me (Wulf Schnasser), HoS (Ezra Scott) and Warden (Victor Kaipov) [and maybe one bald griefer-officer that was put into holding cell and went SSD]

- HoS (Ezra Scott) IMHO was not ready for HoS function, as you can see on Mirk's logs, I (Wulf) asked what is the situation, I was only told on security channel (IIRC not by Elena) that there are wizards, that they EMP and to grab a shotgun. I was asking for information about the suspects a few times, both on sec. channel and directly, but I was told nothing specific. (Next round, Ezra Scott {again, HoS} went SSD after +- 30 minutes of the shift in his office, closing the shutters down. Wasn't there a thread lately about Heads and security going SSD early?)

In my opinion, Bokaza's actions were justified, (but like I said, I arrived late) during these circumstances. But that is just my opinion. Also, you were playing Head of Personnel, not HoS or security officer. Also, I don't agree about that 'antag hunting' as captain that shift, but IMHO, Bokaza, as Elena Raschnikova should give Charlie Stamos one shotgun, for his own safety, but warn him when he goes on 'antag hunt', because IMO 'antag hunting' as HoP is even worse than said 'antag hunting' as Captain.

That is all I have to say.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

While I am leery about ordering weapons from cargo for security (I mean we have an armoury and Heads have guns for self-defense) I don't see how this specific complaint has too much standing. If the HoS was ineffectual or not there, the Captain filled in as the role because it was necessary. The Captain is supposed to delegate departments if they're required but have no Head; which Elena did. The only substance I really can see for an issue to work out is the shotguns, and the personal wielding of the shotguns by the Captain.

A full character complaint for that probably isn't necessary, but I dunno. Is it a chronic issue that other people find troubling?

[Guest]

HoPs are Human Resources directors. They would not be caught dead at the battlefront. It is assumed that their skills lie in bureaucracy and diplomacy. Logs show you weren't interested in either, you just wanted a shotgun.

Captains are different. Captains can come from a variety of different backgrounds, some being military, others being station or administration backgrounds. In this case, however, it is assumed Elena comes from a background of security forces. It can also be assumed the captain knows how to use a gun, and knows how to lead and coordinate security.

Make sense, now? 'Capcurity' has no merit for complaint, because that really makes no sense. Captains are allowed to shoot shit if they have the skills for shooting shit. HoPs, in practice, should not. Captains administrate (also read as: lead, in more dire situations) the station as a whole. HoPs do not. HoPs are expected to sit down and shut up when hostile activity is detected onboard the station.

If you wanna talk about immersion killing, I'd point at your attempt to HoPcurity before the captain trying to 'be a rambo.'

[Guest]

HoPs are Human Resources directors. They would not be caught dead at the battlefront. It is assumed that their skills lie in bureaucracy and diplomacy. Logs show you weren't interested in either, you just wanted a shotgun.

Captains are different. Captains can come from a variety of different backgrounds, some being military, others being station or administration backgrounds. In this case, however, it is assumed Elena comes from a background of security forces. It can also be assumed the captain knows how to use a gun, and knows how to lead and coordinate security.

Make sense, now? 'Capcurity' has no merit for complaint, because that really makes no sense. Captains are allowed to shoot shit if they have the skills for shooting shit. HoPs, in practice, should not. Captains administrate (also read as: lead, in more dire situations) the station as a whole. HoPs do not. HoPs are expected to sit down and shut up when hostile activity is detected onboard the station.

If you wanna talk about immersion killing, I'd point at your attempt to HoPcurity before the captain trying to 'be a rambo.'

 

Just wanting to make the point that an HoP, if thrust into the situation, is supposed to be trained how to use weapons and fight, if even at a basic level. They are supplied with a gun for a reason, they are trained HOW to use it, because they deal with angry crew. Disclaimer - I am not saying this is an excuse to HoPcurity, I just want people to know that the HoP isn't this person who can't fight back at all if put into a violent situation.

Also, I myself have gotten banned from Captain for going after an Antag and killing them because Sec was busy at the time and they were fucking with Tcoms, and I also got reprimanded by Skull (Or was it dear FFrances? Or another?) for responding to a sec call, because annoying Security WASNT responding to the call about the kidnapper with a gun, and while I succeeded in my task in fighting off the traitor until Security arrived, I still got in trouble because the Captain is the KING of the chessboard, they are powerful, but their power is effectively moot, you are a VIP in emergencies, you should not endanger yourself at ALL because THAT ENDANGERS YOUR ENTIRE STATION. You die, then your station is left without a proper administrator.

Another thing, the Head of Personnel is as much a station administrator as the Captain, while they don't execute direct control, in the absence of a Head of Staff for a department, the Head of Personnel is trained to act as an administrative (read as: Not practical, as in, no knowing the jobs within the department, but still administrating it) force for any of the departments. Once again, not justifying HoPcurity, nor Captaincurity, just because you HAVE the skills does not mean you can use them at the time, or every assistant onboard would rush Nuke Ops with bats and crossbows (Doesnt this already happen) .

[Guest]

Alright, I'll adress the points brought up here:

• The reason I didn't give you the shotgon is because, a while before, I was PMed by an admin because Mirk, as Charlie Stamos (HoP), decided to take a laser rifle and shoot at nuke ops. The PM literally went by 'Why does Stamos have a laser rifle?'. I simply was not going to allow it again.
  
• I didn't use one of the mentioned shotguns, but I did carry around a laser rifle, mostly in case I got engaged in combat and needed. Shotguns were the security's request, so it was reserved for security's use.
• I was frontlining all the time because I had to keep the HoS and the Warden under control, to stop them from shooting down the wizards. Low and behold, I leave for five minutes, engagement brakes out. After that, I got a bit carried away chasing them, but was still able to settle it without force.

 

OOC-ly, I'm sorry I couldn't give Mirk a shotgun, but above reason still stands. I'll admit that I get carried away a bit sometimes, although I usually let security handle the fighting with me there as backup for access and if extra firearm is needed.

Honestly, with the current two complaints, I might as well clear out any other problems people might have with my character, for example: Why does she always carry armor? Why is she always pissed at everyone? Why doesn't she have any friends? The main reason I get so much shit for my captain is because I dared actually give her some sort of character, which obviously pisses some people off. If I really have to turn my character into a mindless corporate drone for people to stop making these, you might as well strip me of my whitelist.

[mirkoloio]

One thing, guys. I am /not/ complaining that I did not get a shotgun here. It was merely used as to show the point of Bokaza taking over sec's job.

What I am trying to point out here is that Bokaza is in the front line of combat when ever something attacks. Be it nuke or Wizard. Everything I've played nuke and Bokaza was captain they were with the first people that we faced, guns drawn and shooting.

Again, I am not mad about not getting a shotgun.

[Guest]

One thing, guys. I am /not/ complaining that I did not get a shotgun here. It was merely used as to show the point of Bokaza taking over sec's job.

What I am trying to point out here is that Bokaza is in the front line of combat when ever something attacks. Be it nuke or Wizard. Everything I've played nuke and Bokaza was captain they were with the first people that we faced, guns drawn and shooting.

Again, I am not mad about not getting a shotgun.

 

I think that's an overstatement. I'm not always first one on line, as I've said, I usually stay back unless my help really is needed and the situation isn't too perilous. I honestly think that shit Xander got for doing it is unwarranted and it shouldn't have been an issue if they were willing to risk their life when necessary.

[Frances]

Whether jumping into action is bad or not depends on the character, their job, and the circumstances. I have seen a few characters who annoyed most of the station with their propensity to jump into fights, but there are a few with military backgrounds (that aren't sec) that end up being the occasional action-hero with nobody complaining, because they do it in a fairly intelligent way (understand and respect sec/heads' authority, and offer their help as an extra asset, while respecting the command structure).

The captain is on top of that command structure. And while captains should not be proficient in everything, and solve every situation themselves, it should be their job to be working in tandem with the relevant head when a crisis arises. Although the captain is not security, I have *never* seen someone object to a captain taking up arms along with sec (unless they were old and crippled, it's generally expected the captain can take part in large-scale security operations under code blue/red).

Now let's actually look at you. The way Charlie Stamos reacted to being refused a shotgun was extremely immature. Instead of accepting the captain's orders, or trying to explain politely and rationally why you believe you should've had a weapon, you opted to question the captain's authority, and to be quite honest, began to cry like a baby (I should never have to see a head asking another if they are "[their] mother or something").

Solely based on that, this would actually place you as one of the characters who are eager to rambo without cause, or following due procedures. And it actually appears that this is something staff have had to talk to you about before.

As for Bokaza, I fail to see their fault in wishing to arm security more efficiently under the situation, or keeping a weapon themselves. But I find this entire complaint very ironic.

 

One thing, guys. I am /not/ complaining that I did not get a shotgun here. It was merely used as to show the point of Bokaza taking over sec's job.

How is a captain keeping a weapon and refusing to hand one to a HoP (while giving the rest to sec) is them effectively taking over sec's job?

[Tainavaa]

I did not read the thread and don't quite know the validity of the complaint but I have had some experience with Bokaza being on the firing line. A little while ago, maybe upwards of two months ago or so, two nuclear ops (one of them being me) came onto the station. We were spotted and reported to the station that two armed and armored people came onto the station. First on the scene was Elena, captain, followed by two security officers in hard suits. Events that unfolded are irrelevant but Bokaza has been on the front line before without much of a reason to.

[Guest]

I might need to stress out how much I play Captain, because, honestly, all captains stand on the firing line sooner or later. Yes, I do it, but I don't do it all the time like some people here claim. The reason it seems like I am, is because of the amount of times I've done it. It's basic math:

X - times played captain

Y - times on frontline as a captain

Z - % of times cases Y/X

X1 - number of times you saw me as captain

Y1 - number of times you saw me frontlining as captain

Z1 - % of times I saw cases Y1/X1

How people think it works:

X1 = 1

Y1 = 1

Z = X1/Y1 = 1/1 = 100%

Conclusion: Bokaza always frontlines as captain.

How it really works:

X1 = 1

Y1 = 1

Z1 = X1/Y1 = 1/1 = 100%

Conclusion: I only saw Bokaza play captain once and he was frontlining.

Honestly, teaching people basic calculus is the definition of passive agressive, but cases people bring in on two of my complaints are just bad. Details matter, statistics matter and you let people bring their own conclusion, not conclude it for them.

Is leaving the bridge during code red frontlining? Is leading a pair of troopers to EVA area frontlining? Having an extra laser rifle in case you're cornered? Leading security directly?

Instead people just bring forth half-baked conclusions based on half-informed IC knowledge. But, worst of it all, what is even the point of these complaints. Is it to punish me for my past fuckups and remove my whitelist because of them. If so,then yes, I admit, I ramboed in the past and have frontlined. Ban me. Ban me based on something that happened two months ago, because, in turn, it obviously means that I am still doing it all the time and that I don't care about the rules at all.

[Tainavaa]

I feel like you are taking my piece a bit too personal. There is a ban request forum, and this thread is not in it.

My one experience was to chip in a bit of information to get a little more perspective on the situation. I only added it in because I didn't really think my one experience was enough to warrant a complaint because I really didn't care. However two months later, if something similar happens, perhaps there's an issue. Perhaps there's a behavior that needs to be rectified. Whether there is or not is not up to me, I certainly don't have the experience with Elena in a combat situation to say one way or the other.

tl;dr "I'm just sayin', is all."

[Jamini]

I do think everyone needs to step back a bit and take a deep breath here.

Does Boka sometimes play Elena, who is established with a security/military background, as a front-line character? Yes.

Does Boka do this often or unnecessarily? Not that I have seen. Elena will join in with security if they are understaffed, yes, but I've honestly not seen her step in unless security needed the help.

Was Boka overstepping in this instance? Maybe.

Was Boka justified in refusing to let the Head of Personal have a weapon? Yes.

People do need to remember, playing captain is a difficult job. It is a fine line between lending aid to other departments, especially security, and taking suffocating control. I, personally, have not had issue with Elena's leadership style after many, many, many shifts working with her as her Chief Engineer. I find her much more palatable than at least one other captain (who I will not name), and overall I've found her a pleasure to work with. Perhaps it is because Boka very clearly plays Elena to her strengths (Which is predominantly security-focused) and allows me to run my own department. Perhaps I am entirely wrong in this instance, but thus far I have found Bokaza plays a very very good captain, and I do not see behavior in the player or character that would in any way warrant these complaints or attempts at white-list removal.

I would strongly urge anyone here making this complaint, especially those who are on the command white-list, to play captain for a few rounds. It's a stressful, unforgiving role. One that I personally despise despite having been forced into it on multiple occasions. I've seen many players on both Aurora and elsewhere who were simply incapable of providing effective leadership. Bokaza/Elena are, to me, one of the few people who I can really respect out of character as my imaginary leader of my this imaginary game space station. There are exactly three other players/characters on that list, all of whom were from my years on Baystation and none of whom play anymore.

[Skull132]

Hokay. I just now noticed that this is about a round that I actively modified with admin magix. Well, because of that, the round is my responsibility to a degree, and I did active tabs on it. As such, lemme outline a few things.

For the entire duration of the round, I was ghosted about the wizard duo, and as such, was tracking the actions of everyone who interacted with them. I missed a few notes, probably, but did track everything the antagonists were doing.

Now, here's what I observed:

• The security team was not as well staffed as the complaint points it out to be. They literally had a Warden and the HoS doing the job of officers. That was, guarding the two lunatic guests.
• There was no active combat to speak of for the first hour or two that the lunatic duo was on station. As such, I see no reason to fault the Captain for taking an active role in keeping an eye on the guests. In fact, there was a good 30 or minutes before the initial flashbang went off, that the lunatic duo was guarded purely by the Warden, Kaipov, and the captain was managing other things.
  
• Once an active hunt was sparked, with the really minimal size of the Internal Security Department, I cannot fault Bokaza for helping them out. Specially against two individuals, when you take into account that they previously proven themselves capable of willing fireballs into existence that breach the station. Ergo, it's a threat you want to contain ASANow, and a sec team of 2 ain't going to be able to do it.

 

All in all, I cannot find a single fault in Bokaza's captaining for the round, as the event host responsible.

[Baka]

Going on with what Skull said, I concur with Bokaza's ruling. The Captain made a direct call, and while it was not the one the Head of Personnel wanted to hear, it's still an order with reasoning behind it.

[Baka]

Because of no replies within the month, I still stand by my ruling. I will be locking and archiving this topic.

Please message me if you have question or concerns.