Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Lore Impact (Small/Medium/Large): Medium. It's not a big change, length-wise, but still has an impact on the society.

Species: Human

Short Description: Removes the conquest-focused side of the Scarab fleet.

How will this be reflected on-station?: Scarab characters will no longer have to wrestle with the baggage of a warmongering streak they never talk about anyway.

Does this addition do anything not achieved by what already exists?: Yes

Do you understand that the project may change over time in ways you may not foresee once it is handed over to the Lore Team? Yes

Long Description: Working off the same paragraphs currently on the wiki(last parts of the History section on the Scarabs page, and the description for Iraiya on Notable Humans), new sections are bolded and colored green. This is intended to be a small edit and I do not have the goal of touching any other elements of overarching Scarab culture or history, after discussion with Scarab players.

Quote

The Tian Kehan (an honorary title, vaguely Khan of Heaven) named Iraiya, the fourth successor of Kagwa is the current “leader” of the unified Scarabs. Today from their throne on the new capital ship King’s Omen, their goal is to ensure the safety and prosperity of the fleet, a task that is no small feat due to the demand for resources a fleet this large requires. Currently this problem is tackled through establishing warm relations with various worlds in the Coalition, though this has yet to yield any substantial tangible benefit, leaving the Scarabs perpetually on the brink of extreme scarcity. Because of this, some voices among the Scarabs call for a more aggressive approach to the problem, a sentiment that has been shut down regularly. In addition, the desire for a return to Earth had long since faded as those within the fleet grew accustomed to their new lifestyle. Among Scarabs, she is known as the Queen in Blue. Scarabs represent an alien form of Man left to itself for nearly two hundred years, different and distanced from all societal progression that influenced their hand otherwise. In 2438, Scarabs made their grand return to the Coalition territories, and through trade upgraded their entire home fleet with bluespace technology. Now, the fleet is a combination of the inefficient past and sleek present.

Quote

Sat upon the throne of the King’s Omen is the young Iraiya, known by the Scarabs and in the Frontier as the “Queen in Blue.” She is the descendent of Apollo Kagwa, the lone man who led the Scarabs to unification during the Lost Years. She is known for her excessive caution and compassion for her kin, embodying the Scarab superstition they are known for. To outsiders, she’s seen as pragmatic and dedicated to the ensuring the survival of the fleet she rules over, and has left a mark on interstellar politics by aligning more closely with the Coalition, a move most notably demonstrated during the Second Invasion of Tau Ceti. Whether this is due to a genuine desire to assist the Coalition and its allies or an attempt at gaining favor for the sake of more resources for the fleet can only be guessed at by outside observers

Edited by ImmortalRedshirt
Iraiya edit again
Link to comment

My biggest issue with this is that it makes them boring. While we all know that they did not interact too much with the rest of the setting, now they have far less reasons to even do so.

Link to comment

I don't think I can agree with the sentiment that what makes a faction engaging is how much violence it is capable of and willing to cause. Rather, it comes down to the societies, and how their differences influence interaction between characters of disparate and similar backgrounds on the server itself, as that is what we spend the most time focusing on in the game. This is an aspect of a faction's lore that, when compelling enough(and in the case of the Scarabs, I very much believe it is), can carry interactions even without in-universe development of the faction itself on a macro scale.

In a more general note, Iraiya has received another update, following some feedback.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, ImmortalRedshirt said:

I don't think I can agree with the sentiment that what makes a faction engaging is how much violence it is capable of and willing to cause.

I never said that. Your proposal still makes them boring by giving the faction no reason or motivation to interact with the whole world besides existing, it does not even needs to be violent.

Link to comment
Posted (edited)

I agree with redshirt and their OP is pretty good. The writing of scarabs being violent etc is inconsistent with the lore and how the characters tend to be played onstation. It would also be neat to have less warmongering in the lore, since it is a trope of auroraverse to be like a strategy game AAR sometimes on factions where its inconsistent -- see OP.

Its also not boring if a faction itself isnt throwing its weight around bcuz players arent playing the faction, theyre playing characters. Factions are characters for loredevs to RP as, where chars are what players use to interact with the rest of the galaxy as a faction member. Thats my rephrasing in my words what redshirt said in their reply. I think i got it right?

+1

Edited by Marlon P.
Link to comment

I would much rather there was less focus on war with factions altogether, honestly. This is a step in the right direction, especially for scarabs, considering that spur-wide politics doesn't play nearly as big a part of the round as it does in peripheral areas like the relay. War in general is, in my opinion, losing its impact in the setting, and I'd imagine a non-negligible amount of the community is also war weary too. Taking out the "conquest" aspect of the scarabs basically won't affect their behaviour in round at all, and would allow for different kinds of conflict in the future. Maybe instead of being conquerors, they could face the issues that modern nomads face? News reports about scarabs being run out of systems by angry or superstitious populations could provide actual interest in the affairs without any inherently war-like attitudes flaring. How would a more nomadic scarab fleet coming into Gadpathurian space end, especially when you consider how paranoid Gadpathurians are about foreign ships? Scarabs having the attitude of "I just want to stay as I am" would be an actual part of conflict in a changing spur.

 

Lore also shouldn't need to link in perfectly, things should be allowed to be totally isolated from one another without much fretting over how they tie in to some large scale affair. Having Scarabs just react to what directly affects them, or hell just be apathetic, would add more depth to the world than linking them in fruitlessly. Nobody would know or care about every single conflict or issue, I couldn't tell you anything about the ongoing civil war in the Central African Republic and I doubt anyone from there would care about the current divide in the UK Labour Party being catalysed by Kier Starmer as premier. Having unlinked groups is not only fine, it's realistic.

 

+1

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, Montyfatcat said:

I would much rather there was less focus on war with factions altogether, honestly. This is a step in the right direction, especially for scarabs, considering that spur-wide politics doesn't play nearly as big a part of the round as it does in peripheral areas like the relay. War in general is, in my opinion, losing its impact in the setting, and I'd imagine a non-negligible amount of the community is also war weary too. Taking out the "conquest" aspect of the scarabs basically won't affect their behaviour in round at all, and would allow for different kinds of conflict in the future. Maybe instead of being conquerors, they could face the issues that modern nomads face? News reports about scarabs being run out of systems by angry or superstitious populations could provide actual interest in the affairs without any inherently war-like attitudes flaring. How would a more nomadic scarab fleet coming into Gadpathurian space end, especially when you consider how paranoid Gadpathurians are about foreign ships? Scarabs having the attitude of "I just want to stay as I am" would be an actual part of conflict in a changing spur.

 

Lore also shouldn't need to link in perfectly, things should be allowed to be totally isolated from one another without much fretting over how they tie in to some large scale affair. Having Scarabs just react to what directly affects them, or hell just be apathetic, would add more depth to the world than linking them in fruitlessly. Nobody would know or care about every single conflict or issue, I couldn't tell you anything about the ongoing civil war in the Central African Republic and I doubt anyone from there would care about the current divide in the UK Labour Party being catalysed by Kier Starmer as premier. Having unlinked groups is not only fine, it's realistic.

 

+1

Hard agree. This is what i was wanting to say but said better and more thoughtfully. A very good look at it and OP.

Link to comment

What is so wrong with them warmongering? You say that it is "baggage," and apparently inherently negative. I would like to remind you that we totally allow former (or even current!) pirates on station, along with people who fought along or against child soldiers (or were once child soldiers), or people who have faced apocalyptical nuclear war, etc, etc. Violence is something that happens in our setting. I am not even necessarily against this change, of making the Scarabs more pacifist--I just don't understand why? I'm all for fleshing out the motivations of the scarab, but this proposal does not seem apt to flesh out the identity and the influence of the Scarabs--instead, this proposal just adds some flavor to the Queen in Blue and removes the nomadic warmongering thing.

What is the problem with the warmongering? We have other factions that also do it. Wouldn't keeping the warmongering, but then adding on other motivations, such as trade, or the spreading of a religion, or the acquisition/unification of offworlders, or something, be better than just wiping out the warmongering and leaving nothing in its place? My biggest question is what is the big deal with the Scarabs conquering weaker nomadic vessels. This is not rhetorical; I just don't see the problem. What's so bad about it?

Link to comment

I think even if Iraiya was changed, outsiders or even those within the fleet shouldn't know where she stands or how reluctant she may be. She did after all act as the spokesperson for the Coalition military deterrent to Sol and made good on it by joining the conflict in KOTW. I don't think her added details makes her seem like someone willing or able to risk anything.

I don't have much of a stake in them being or not being likely to wage war other than that. I do agree stuff like them wanting to go back to earth and unify all of humanity (or at least the offworlders) was silly and at odds with their nature.

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
On 06/07/2022 at 03:01, DeadLantern said:

What is the problem with the warmongering?

War is a tool like any other in story telling, a spice of story telling, but just like a spice if you over-use it then you end up dominating other aspects of the story with little benefit or even to the detriment of the story. Aurora is an incredibly war heavy setting, one that's actually getting to the point where it can get a little draining to read that another war or violent event has broken out in the spur on some planet that has little impact on the station, and then having to pretend your character cares because they have basic empathy. Aurora's setting has a lot of war heavy aspects at the moment, between Mictlan and Adhomai both being in states of civil war/insurgency to the spur still recovering from the war in the KOTW event, as well as the nuclear wasteland of Moghes and the extremely militarist societies of the warlord states and Gadpathur.

 

To put it simply, we need something else to happen. Even newer players like myself are getting war weary, and it would be nice to have groups be interesting without someone going "but what's their relevance to Sol?" or "but what's their military like?" Some more planets that reflect the mindset of the Vysoka update would be perfect, scarabs can become that if Redshirt is willing to throw in some other aspects (no pressure). Nomad cultures can be extremely interesting to both the observer and the participant, so replacing the warlike aspects with rich traditions would make the scarabs more interesting and help alleviate the war weariness of the community at large.

Link to comment
14 hours ago, Montyfatcat said:

Some more planets that reflect the mindset of the Vysoka update would be perfect

Could you please explain what you mean by this? You are arguing for Vysoka as an example of lore that isn't militarised. However, in the update the planet's military was expanded upon and the concept of hosts, literally described as "semi-nomadic militaristic communities," were introduced. Their lore states that they are armed killers and bandits who among other things, coerce and raid villages, make war with one another, target foreigners with violence, and distribute weapons and narcotics. I am unsure what you are trying to say with advocating for things to be more like Vysoka while asking for a less militarised/war-including tone.

Edited by TheBurninSherman
Link to comment
9 hours ago, TheBurninSherman said:

Could you please explain what you mean by this? You are arguing for Vysoka as an example of lore that isn't militarised. However, in the update the planet's military was expanded upon and the concept of hosts, literally described as "semi-nomadic militaristic communities," were introduced. Their lore states that they are armed killers and bandits who among other things, coerce and raid villages, make war with one another, target foreigners with violence, and distribute weapons and narcotics. I am unsure what you are trying to say with advocating for things to be more like Vysoka while asking for a less militarised/war-including tone.

The military was expanded upon, but it wasn't the central theme. The lore given recently lets you have multiple long conversations with Vysokans about their home and culture without the topic of violence even coming up, whereas compare it to something like tajarans, where their lore is extremely focussed on a series of revolutions. 2/3 of the points in the history section are just about various wars and revolutions for example.

image.png.2ca315af071d6d03c472c732cabcc087.png

 

Having a violent or warlike aspect is fine, and going back to my spice analogy you can see that Vysokan lore isn't heavily steeped in violence, therefore not drowning out what else is there. There's holidays and sports to get excited about, there's small cultural clashes, there's links to some planets without having to make the galactic equivalent of Idaho into an important factor of the galactic stage. The emphasis isn't heavily placed on the violence, and that's what's important. You can write a character that's totally isolated from the violence of the hosts if you wanted and that would be totally fine within the lore, you're not reaching out for something to talk about.

Looking at Scarab lore, that's not quite the case unfortunately. There's a lot of emphasis placed on being nomadic warriors, but it's kind of for naught because it kind of never comes up in-character outside of a curious character asking about their culture. There's not as much to relate back to, not as much to inject into a conversation naturally. Honestly, looking at the lore, I'm slightly surprised we don't see more scarab sec all things considered.

Link to comment
On 19/07/2022 at 09:56, Montyfatcat said:

War is a tool like any other in story telling, a spice of story telling, but just like a spice if you over-use it then you end up dominating other aspects of the story with little benefit or even to the detriment of the story. Aurora is an incredibly war heavy setting, one that's actually getting to the point where it can get a little draining to read that another war or violent event has broken out in the spur on some planet that has little impact on the station, and then having to pretend your character cares because they have basic empathy. Aurora's setting has a lot of war heavy aspects at the moment, between Mictlan and Adhomai both being in states of civil war/insurgency to the spur still recovering from the war in the KOTW event, as well as the nuclear wasteland of Moghes and the extremely militarist societies of the warlord states and Gadpathur.

 

To put it simply, we need something else to happen. Even newer players like myself are getting war weary, and it would be nice to have groups be interesting without someone going "but what's their relevance to Sol?" or "but what's their military like?" Some more planets that reflect the mindset of the Vysoka update would be perfect, scarabs can become that if Redshirt is willing to throw in some other aspects (no pressure). Nomad cultures can be extremely interesting to both the observer and the participant, so replacing the warlike aspects with rich traditions would make the scarabs more interesting and help alleviate the war weariness of the community at large.

What you say here, I do agree with some parts. I do think more traditions and the actual culture/niche of the Scarabs should be expanded upon. But, also, warmongering and expansion of other parts of their culture is not mutually exclusive; you can just do both. I see why you would have problems with war being so integral with so many parts of our setting, but let's face it, war is interesting. In fact, the warmongering will become more interesting with the inclusion of more explanation on their culture, their government, the people, etc. The two can actually support each other and create a good platform for the Scarabs to stand on. I am fine with demphasizing their warmongering aspect by adding more; I am not fine with just removing it.

You talk about replacing their warmongering with culture, but you don't have to replace it. Additionally, I'd like to see what the expansion would look like before we remove the war aspect from Scarabs, because that will leave the entire group empty. Even if you really want to remove the warmongering aspect, it should wait until their culture is expanded upon. If there are no driving forces about the Scarabs, it will feel like the Scarabs are even more out-of-place in the setting.

Link to comment
On 22/07/2022 at 01:07, DeadLantern said:

warmongering and expansion of other parts of their culture is not mutually exclusive; you can just do both.

But having the warmongering aspects doesn't make them interesting, in many ways I believe it detracts from them. In such a war heavy setting, being warmongering does the opposite of making you stand out, it can turn you into part of the furniture, blending in with so many other groups that there's nothing attracting people to you. That's why relatively benign planets like Konyang still maintain a decent amount of players, because they stick out as a group that for the most part left Sol peacefully.

 

On 22/07/2022 at 01:07, DeadLantern said:

see why you would have problems with war being so integral with so many parts of our setting, but let's face it, war is interesting

War suffers from the law of diminishing returns, one war is shocking, two wars is moreso, but once you start hitting three or four wars, the effect starts to die off. Look how quickly the interest in Mictlan fell, for example, after the initial invasion in September. By the time the second round of the arc started in February time, there was even less interest despite the flurry of articles that came out, and interest had to be maintained through constant events. How many people are interested in it now that it's having limited effects on the round? Today's round with the Samaritans was the first in couple months, at least from what I can tell, and in the meantime the Mictlanian playerbase has significantly dipped to the point that I can't remember a Mictlanian character off the top of my head (versus almost every other planet except perhaps the peripherary tajaran planet and Dominian planets like Sparta, both of which as far as I remember have pretty war-heavy lore.)

 

On 22/07/2022 at 01:07, DeadLantern said:

 warmongering will become more interesting with the inclusion of more explanation on their culture, their government, the people, etc. The two can actually support each other and create a good platform for the Scarabs to stand on.

I disagree, for the reasons stated before. It's the same as when Biesellites start sabre rattling at the mention of a minor conflict, it only works a few times at once, and can actually cheapen what is good lore in the process. Acknowledging their militaristic past is totally fine, and in my opinion currently accounts for the most interesting parts of their lore such as the use of swords as ceremonial objects, but a step away from there and a step towards giving them a more unique defining characteristic can go much further than enhancing their warmongering with a related culture.

 

On 22/07/2022 at 01:07, DeadLantern said:

If there are no driving forces about the Scarabs, it will feel like the Scarabs are even more out-of-place in the setting.

Being nomads, scarabs have an incredibly easy set of conflicts to choose from that would give them a driving force in the spur. We can draw from quite literally dozens of different challenges that modern nomad groups face, from land rights to stereotyping to struggling to maintain their way of life due to aging equipment and low income. Look to the Roma, for example, who are frequently run off of any land they try to settle down on, or to the remaining nomads in the mountain ranges of South America that have had to upgrade to dirtbikes to maintain their lifestyle, and are now struggling to pay for fuel. Scarabs could be suffering from an expansion crisis with their population, as ships have to hyper-specialise more and more to cope with the demands of a growing population. They could face different planets in the coc still falsely viewing them as hostile and conquering, causing scarab ships to be threatened the second they enter the system. Scarabs could have any number of discrimination issues related to some negative stereotypes surrounding them.

Not only that, yet again I remind you that good lore doesn't have to always remain totally relevant to the setting. It has been proven time and again that not all groups need to be brought into the spotlight to thrive, Dominians have barely any news and we see them frequently, Eridanians come up regularly and I'm fairly certain my non-canon paper on Oran's punk scene has been the only news related to them that I've ever seen.

Link to comment

Going to toss in my suggestion here then:

Scarabs are supposed to be a bit of a weird society, what with the MASSIVE environmental pressures put on them by the fact they're a space-based civilization. That's in part why they have things like the Sadar, nearly-fanatical rationing, kooky superstitions, and of course, the aggressive expansionism to make up for resource short-falls and possibly even create surpluses.

I honestly like the idea of the Scarabs poking at nearly every major faction for resources, because it prompts that extra societal conflict and gives people who play Frontier characters a reason to dislike them, along with more established/developed factions seeing them as being difficult to work around from their folk beliefs and, again, them putting stations and isolated colonies on metaphorical blocks.

Buuuuuut, as the OP pointed out, most people don't play them up like these space steppe nomads. So, I'd suggest a slight adjustment for our favorite Not! Bedouins: Add in some internal politics on the Scarabs.

Right now, they're somewhat monolithic, with some cultural shifts and naming conventions between the larger ships, but no real disunity from just how varied they can be. Remember, the Fleet is supposedly composed of ships ranging from relatively recent salvage/'gently used,' to 200+ year old junkers held together with spit, hope, and round the clock maintenance, all crewed by people from nearly every culture you could imagine. So, why not build on this? Couple of my ideas below to help people have more peaceful Scarabs without pulling one of their more interesting traits:

  • Have sub-fleets, or Flotillas within the larger Fleet, with their own take on how to best survive. Maybe have the old guard be behind Irayia, and prosecute a Spur-wide Jihad to unite all Spacers, while a growing post-Contact faction wants to try to take up a less violent approach, attempting to culturally or economically subdue the spacers.
  • Maybe have groups of newer ships that aren't as dead-set on the Folk Traditions be ostracized by the Old Guard and their allies, mostly kept around to help keep resources flowing, but who have a lot more contact with the outside world, leading to more non-Sadar Scarabs roaming about. Could even have some rivalry between them and the Traditionalists, since contact and sub-contracting with the SCC would be pretty lucrative.
  • Could even have a faction within them suggesting the Scarabs settle, establishing way-stations and supply depots that the Fleet uses to support itself, acting as a middle-ground politically: They need new locations to setup, and don't mind when the Old Guard get to shooting, but would prefer to keep the locals happy and non-antagonistic towards their outposts.
  • Hell, maybe Irayia's approach is seen as wasteful by the Old Guard, who think she's biting off more than she can chew by effectively declaring war on the entire Human Spur, and needlessly putting the Fleet at risk while also spreading it out, threatening its stability?
  • Have them suffer a major loss. Maybe have them recently (As in, within the last decade) have lost one of their city ships (New-to-lore, to avoid getting rid of existing chars, or have those be refugees from them?) to conflict with one of the other factions. That'd focus the aggressive expansion on only one faction, keeping the militarism in play, but allowing them to play nice with everyone else- or, at least, the ones who might've helped during that catastrophe. This would have the side-benefit of pushing their resource-starved narrative, since the loss of a city would be a colossal blow to the survivability of the Fleet.

The idea is to keep the rivalries and interesting conflicts, but allow for more peaceful characters. I figure one, all, or a combo of these ideas could help with that, while adding some more interpersonal conflict than 'SADAR BAD! NO SADAR GOOD!' and even make it an open question of how the Major factions should treat the Scarabs, since, well, not all of them are shooting at you or stealing your things, or maybe they don't even care much about you.

Okay, screed over, hopefully the thread isn't entirely dead at this point.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...