Community Concern

[Zulu0009]

1 minute ago, MattAtlas said:

What part of talking to someone 14 times before applying a ban is immediate punishment?

How was I supposed to know that you talked to them 14 times?

[MattAtlas]

3 minutes ago, Zulu0009 said:

How was I supposed to know that you talked to them 14 times?

You are making claims that we punish people without talking to them first without any sort of knowledge, then?

[Zulu0009]

Just now, MattAtlas said:

You are making claims that we punish people without talking to them first without any sort of knowledge, then?

No, and I don't understand this accusatory language. My whitelist removal is an example of the behavior I am highlighting. I was messaged by an SLT member on a random day and told that my whitelist had been stripped. That is, in my opinion, an example of punishment without talking to the user.

[UponASeaOfStars]

"Speaking to someone 14 times" includes things like why are you wearing sandals as a security cadet? ("because that's the default loadout for Tajaran security cadets" "well don't do it again it's not proper uniform code"), keep in mind. Or being bwoinked and messaged on discord for this. That's not to say I defend wearing sandals or making PG-13 comments in private, but there's a reason we don't bring up jaywalking in murder trials. But, far more importantly-- one, this isn't about me (and my ban appeal was just denied anyway), so let's please stay on topic. And two, speaking to someone isn't the same as talking with someone. There is a huge difference between bwoinking someone mid-round, going "don't do that, I'm warning you, if you disagree you can make a staff complaint uwu"... and just, y'know, talking to them like a normal person.

This isn't about any one individual, and I'd rather we stop pretending it is, because it's not going to make my ban appeal go any smoother. This is about the problems with the current policy and how we can best fix it - and before you say "make a policy suggestion!"... that's just "make a staff complaint!" with a different coat of paint. The problem is that people are unwilling to just talk to each other. And I get it, I really do - sometimes there'll be bad actors who abuse that leniency. But, and you may disagree, I think it's far better to be too kind, than too cruel. If you're trying to be a dictator, it's better to be feared than loved, in the words of Machiavelli - but if you're trying to be a public servant, you probably want to go more for the loved side.

Edited February 8, 2023 by UponASeaOfStars

[SilverSZ]

Hi, 

As someone obviously intimately involved in Zulu's original whitelist strip I would just like to say that after that was resolved the process for warning and stripping people of WLs did change inside of the lore team.

 

We now must officially warn people prior to a strip and these warnings are logged, a strip must also be logged in the same way 

 

Given that as Zulu said to them it is an example of an unfair punishment without talking to the user I feel it is pertinent to point out that it has changed now since said incident.

[Peppermint]

12 minutes ago, Zulu0009 said:

How was I supposed to know that you talked to them 14 times?

Does this now show that large parts of the community have no idea what was going on and why the decisions that were reached, were reached? We don't publicise things and generally keep a lid on what other people have done, as lord only knows how miserable it would be to deal with folks knowing each other's notes and whatnot and how that opens things up to abuse.

This whole thread is giving me that vibe that people have reached conclusions on some very small material and are now doubling down despite not really having much of an idea how things work behind the scenes, or how much discussion goes into these kinds of choices.

[MattAtlas]

1 minute ago, Zulu0009 said:

No, and I don't understand this accusatory language. My whitelist removal is an example of the behavior I am highlighting. I was messaged by an SLT member on a random day and told that my whitelist had been stripped. That is, in my opinion, an example of punishment without talking to the user.

I will accuse you, actually, because you are straight up lying to defend your friend. You were in every thread where we explained that we talked to them many times (so, you actually were aware) - so you are in fact taking your friend's side without having a clue about what's going on. As for your strip, thank you for the reminder that we were actually very lenient with Stars. You did something so bad as an IPC that it warranted immediate removal. It isn't really the badge of honour as a defender of player freedom that you think it is - unless you'd like to enlighten everyone here about why your whitelist was removed, discounting the previous warnings you got for LRP behaviour.

5 minutes ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

this isn't about me, so let's please stay on topic

The thread specifically states it is about you. First line of the thread. You should read the threads that you tell your friends to make.

5 minutes ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

But, far more importantly-- one, this isn't about me, so let's please stay on topic. And two, speaking to someone isn't the same as talking with someone.

The level of pretentiousness and complete disrespect for the time staff put in here is stunning. I stayed up past four AM to help you with your original medical appeal. And you are here telling me that I didn't take the time to speak with you? That nobody actually helped you, when I took over an hour of my personal time to help you understand what went wrong AND help you with your unban appeal that was successfully accepted? When Read herself spent MULTIPLE HOURS of her personal time yesterday to help you out? Either you are lying in your favour, or you are twisting facts to make yourself seem like the victim. Pick one of them, because it can't be both.

You got banned under no different pretenses than anyone else. I think it's utterly ridiculous that you're trying to paint us as too draconian when 99% of the playerbase remains without a single ban for their entire playtime on the server. Simple fact of the matter is that you can't follow rules while everyone else can. This isn't going to change no matter how much you argue.

[UponASeaOfStars]

3 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

Does this now show that large parts of the community have no idea what was going on and why the decisions that were reached, were reached?

Not even the people being punished know why the decisions that were reached, were reached. I still haven't seen my own notes that were used as key evidence against me in my permaban, despite requesting to see them.

To me, this thread feels like people are discontented with the way things work, and are trying to state clearly why that discontent exists, but are being shut down, sidetracked, snarked on or slandered for trying to point out a problem. So if I can pose a question...

A problem exists. What are we going to do about it?

Quote

The level of pretentiousness and complete disrespect for the time staff put in here is stunning. I stayed up past four AM to help you with your original medical appeal. And you are here telling me that I didn't take the time to speak with you? That nobody actually helped you, when I took over an hour of my personal time to help you understand what went wrong AND help you with your unban appeal that was successfully accepted?

I'm not referring to you or Read here, as you're both people who've proven that simple communication is not only possible, but incredibly effective. I'm referring to the policies in place that discourage such actions. And I had no idea this thread was being made until I saw it in the forum activity list.

Edited February 8, 2023 by UponASeaOfStars

[Caelphon]

If you wish to see policy change, I’d recommend being a voice for it. Policy suggestions and alterations have been frequently made during my tenure as the Lore Master, alongside my deputies (Kyres, Lucaken). 

Policies do change, but it requires information provided to people to make that change. Not reporting behaviour, not speaking out against actions, and not dealing with it through the appropriate channels is not helping anyone on the server.

[MattAtlas]

2 minutes ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

I'm not referring to you or Read here, as you're both people who've proven that simple communication is not only possible, but incredibly effective. I'm referring to the policies in place that discourage such actions. And I had no idea this thread was being made until I saw it in the forum activity list.

Communication with you wasn't effective because you immediately broke the rules again and got banned: all this proves is that our approach is correct. You try to pretend that we should keep talking to you despite you never actually learning, but that's not the case - we have personal time too, and we don't really want to spend the rest of our days trying to explain to you why having double the inventory space is an exploit.

[Peppermint]

1 minute ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

Not even the people being punished know why the decisions that were reached, were reached. I still haven't seen my own notes that were used as key evidence against me in my permaban, despite requesting to see them.

To me, this thread feels like people are discontented with the way things work, and are trying to state clearly why that discontent exists, but are being shut down, sidetracked, snarked on or slandered for trying to point out a problem. So if I can pose a question...

A problem exists. What are we going to do about it?

Well personally nothing, as I don't feel there's a problem in the way things are handled most of the time. There is a lot of scrutiny and effort involved in staff complaints, people often just want to hash things out over discord which is a poor idea for many reasons.

If you want your notes, you need to DM Alb or Garn as we keep pointing out to people. The crux seems to be that people don't like their notes being private - but they're not. You can just dm a head admin and they'll be given out to you. We used to all share them but after someone leaked something they shouldn't to people, and someone else accidentally shared notes that were supposed to be hidden, it got tightened up. One of those two was removed from staff over it (amongst other things), and the other apologised and got things fixed. More examples of change taking place when something goes wrong.

[UponASeaOfStars]

5 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

Communication with you wasn't effective because you immediately broke the rules again and got banned: all this proves is that our approach is correct. You try to pretend that we should keep talking to you despite you never actually learning, but that's not the case - we have personal time too, and we don't really want to spend the rest of our days trying to explain to you why having double the inventory space is an exploit.

And again, I'm not the only person who has had negative experiences with regards to the current system and the current policies. As Sniblet pointed out in the opening post that keeps being pulled away from... (paraphrased): the forum side of Aurora is toxic, people don't listen to each other, threads are locked and conversations are ended preemptively, bans are wielded like cudgels over misunderstandings, the enforcement of rules is bizarre, inefficient and unfair, dialogue about staff decisions is restricted and constrained, consequence is prioritised above intent, and we all seem to forget that this is just a game to be enjoyed. 

So yes, there's a problem. The problem isn't "uwu Stars got banned for putting things in briefcases", the problem is "the system is broken and this train had so many chances to stop but we still kept going full steam ahead just because we could". The first step to improving Aurora is recognising that it can be improved, and that improvement must come from a place of good faith.

[MattAtlas]

10 minutes ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

And again, I'm not the only person who has had negative experiences with regards to the current system and the current policies. As Sniblet pointed out in the opening post that keeps being pulled away from... (paraphrased): the forum side of Aurora is toxic, people don't listen to each other, threads are locked and conversations are ended preemptively, bans are wielded like cudgels over misunderstandings, the enforcement of rules is bizarre, inefficient and unfair, dialogue about staff decisions is restricted and constrained, consequence is prioritised above intent, and we all seem to forget that this is just a game to be enjoyed. 

So yes, there's a problem. The problem isn't "uwu Stars got banned for putting things in briefcases", the problem is "the system is broken and this train had so many chances to stop but we still kept going full steam ahead just because we could". The first step to improving Aurora is recognising that it can be improved, and that improvement must come from a place of good faith.

Ok. If people have a problem they can go take the appropriate avenues. Not really convinced by these phantom "5 other people I speak to that have grave issues with aurora".

[UponASeaOfStars]

19 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

Ok. If people have a problem they can go take the appropriate avenues. Not really convinced by these phantom "5 other people I speak to that have grave issues with aurora".

Can you really blame people for not speaking up? I have the utmost respect for Zulu and Sniblet and everyone else who says something, but I think it's understood all around that it's a very risky thing to do. 

This is from one of the phantoms, who we'll call E.

This is from another - Gio27 (player of Walter Erdain), who has agreed to put their name to this.

As E said, this is a problem that everyone knows about, but coming forward puts people at risk. If both Gio and I, both relatively new, can pinpoint the problem, then that means there is a problem - we have much less exposure to Aurora's history than others, and if it's obvious to us... 

(Also, for the record, I have no intent to troll the community. If I wanted to cause problems- which I don't- I'd just ban evade and flood phoron. Which I'm not doing, because that's shitty. I want to actually improve Aurora and play on the server I love.)

[Zulu0009]

1 hour ago, SilverSZ said:

Hi, 

As someone obviously intimately involved in Zulu's original whitelist strip I would just like to say that after that was resolved the process for warning and stripping people of WLs did change inside of the lore team.

We now must officially warn people prior to a strip and these warnings are logged, a strip must also be logged in the same way

Given that as Zulu said to them it is an example of an unfair punishment without talking to the user I feel it is pertinent to point out that it has changed now since said incident.

In the interest of fairness, I concur and apologize for omitting this. Though it's questionable why it took me opening a staff complaint for this issue to come to light, I recognize that something did change. Thank you for correcting me.

59 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

I will accuse you, actually, because you are straight up lying to defend your friend. You were in every thread where we explained that we talked to them many times (so, you actually were aware) - so you are in fact taking your friend's side without having a clue about what's going on. As for your strip, thank you for the reminder that we were actually very lenient with Stars. You did something so bad as an IPC that it warranted immediate removal. It isn't really the badge of honour as a defender of player freedom that you think it is - unless you'd like to enlighten everyone here about why your whitelist was removed, discounting the previous warnings you got for LRP behaviour.

Again, I don't understand the accusatory language. I met Stars a week ago because Francisco Vazquez wanted to date their character, I'm not jumping to their defense because they're my friend, I'm doing it because I believe their punishment was unfair. If you mean that ahelps and admin PMs count as "talking," then I misunderstood. As for the rest of this post, it's really unfair and demeaning, considering that Silvie herself stated there was something wrong with the policy which changed following my staff complaint threads. And for the sake of clarity, I have received one warning for LRP behavior in the past, at least that I know of. Also:

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

The thread specifically states it is about you. First line of the thread. You should read the threads that you tell your friends to make.

This is unconstructive and I don't see why you would post this, man. Let's just not insult each other and actually try to reach a resolution, please.

[Peppermint]

How is speaking up about things a risky thing to do? I'd like to see some actual examples of someone who has done so in a kind, thoughtful manner and been punished for it. Usually what people mean when they say it's risky is that they went in guns blaring, were rude to people, and got a light smack for it. Where is the prove for any of these claims? You were not banned for talking your mind. You were banned for breaking rules over and over and over again.

I am also not entirely sure what your second post is supposed to be saying. Warnings have been handed out in this very thread for people being rude toward you, Stars - there is not some collective effort here to silence anyone, or this thread would have long since been locked. We have internally discussed removing emotes and they will likely be gone, alongside a thread a player put up. Again, due to the way they were used against you.

There are a lot of battle cries over how staff are crushing down the players beneath a boot threatening to murder them if they speak out - but again, where has this happened? 

[Don]

1 hour ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

A problem exists. What are we going to do about it?

I wasn't originally going to comment on this thread, as I thought I had nothing of interest to add, but after reading the latest messages I changed my mind. I can strongly sympathize with what Sniblet has said, as I know very well how it feels to not be able to fit in with a community (luckily I learned how to pretend to be a cool kid long before coming to Aurora). The glove affair in particular was extremely stupid. But to you, Stars, I have less and less sympathy every day.

 

You went on a single person crusade against the draconian actions of Aurora staff, all while actively being aided by THREE staff members. You dragged this through 2 reports, an "appeal", and now here. In 4 years of playing SS13 (not Aurora), this is the second MOST LENIENT I've ever seen staff be with a player that they don't OOCly know at all.

 

The truth is simple: you got 14 notes in a month. Even if we assume half of those were misunderstandings, placed incorrectly, etc, that's still 7 notes in a month. All for the same reason. Intent matters as much as the consequences in ss13; you should know this, as you claim to have been playing for years (your account age does not support this). The staff team has had every reason to ban you, and this is what the community expects of them. Asking to have your ban changed to 31 days, and to work it off with bugfixes? You know what we call that? "Staff bias". And players don't want staff to be biased. They want everyone to be treated fairly, even if it means someone who is a good addition to the community has to be banned.

 

But the main reason I'm writing this post, is in regards to Sniblet and Zulu. Both of these players have recently had poor experiences with the community, both due to their actions and not. Sure, it sucks to have your whitelist taken away with no warning, but staff protocols were changed and Zulu eventually got it back. This is generally how players expect things to work. You again call yourself the champion of the people, rising against the oppression of ss13 staff. And this won't get you unbanned, under any circumstance. They've tried to help you get back on track, all the while you stabbed them in the back with your questionable reports, twisting the knife further and further. But still, none of this is the reason I'm writing this.

 

The issue here is that you're dragging people down with you. There is literally no reason for Sniblet and Zulu to be involved with this. With your ban. They had their own poor experiences with the server, sure. They can get back on track. They WANT to get back on track. You? I honestly don't know what your plan is. Start a community rebellion or something? Most community members wouldn't even have given you a chance. Had I been staff, I'd probably be trying to do the same thing Matt and Read tried. And I know well how they feel now, that you're dragging their names through the mud despite them trying their best to bend the system in YOUR favor.

 

So yes, you're the problem. Do what you want, but stop dragging others down with you. They don't deserve it.

[Girdio]

Firstly, I understand that I'm trying to be as objective about this situation, as I was not directly involved with any of the WL/unbans or so-forth. I've interacted with Sniblet, Zulu, and UASOS both ICly and OOCly and have enjoyed interactions with all three of them. I do not intend to make my posts seem biased to them, or towards staff, so I apologize if anything comes off like that. That said, after running through the thread a few things stuck out.

I think, mainly the issue with this thread is the same issue that came with UASOS' complaint about Mel. This thread puts the entire server in this awkward spot, as noted by UASOS' recent reply. While the intention might not be this, it comes off as you wanting people to personally come forward with anecdotal remarks about the forums being toxic. This is similar to asking people to vote up or down if they've had negative interactions with staff. To put it bluntly, I believe a large chunk of people aren't really comfortable airing their grievances into the void, to be dissected by everyone else. 

That said, Peppermint asked, "there are a lot of battle cries over how staff are crushing down the players beneath a boot threatening to murder them if they speak out - but again, where has this happened?".

This isn't something the staff has intentionally created, but there is any sense of this in environments like Aurora. Having authority figures with the ability to bar someone from a community will make people nervous to speak out, even if there is no evidence of this behavior happening. There is always this assumption of "yeah, it hasn't happened but what if I'm the first?"

As well, I don't feel that it's not surprising that people don't feel comfortable addressing concerns, especially regarding staff, with staff. It is unfortunate, but there has been a noted few incidents of Aurora staff talking about players behind their back in the past in a way that was disappointing (I think the security discord situation was the biggest example of this). With this in mind, is it really surprising why someone might not want to come forward and label themselves as a whiner or something similar by the staff or other vocal players? 

Yes, you can state "this hasn't happened and won't happen", but there will always remain that stigma that will make it hard to convince players to come forward and speak on issues. I don't have an answer to how to fix it, but I do think it's worthwhile to explain the perspective of why people might be nervous to speak out.

Personally? I can outwardly state I don't have any issues with the staff but I can understand why someone may be hesitant to come out and speak.

I thought about posting this big reply but think it's easier to ask a simple question: what exactly is the goal of the thread? It really just seems all over the place. At some points, it seems like it's advocating for policy change, at others it seems just like an open-ended complaint thread against the entire staff, despite not being in the complaints forum.

I've reworded and rephrased this a ton, so let me know if it's confusing or whatever. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Girdio

[UponASeaOfStars]

I'm not saying there's a secret shadow cabal of admins that will ban anyone who disagrees with them, and I don't think anyone else is saying that either. I think we're saying that people have very good reasons for wanting to remain anonymous, and it's not right to shame them for doing so. That aside, there is a strong pushback against anyone that raises this issue with the server - this thread is proof. And while I applaud the removal of reactions, it addresses the symptom, not the cause. The cause of all this is that the way things are set up - the policy - and the metapolicy that states that policy must be followed even to the point of absurdity. 

5 minutes ago, Don said:

[snip]

No, I'm not the 'champion of the people, rising against the oppression of ss13 staff'. No, I don't plan to 'start a community rebellion or something'. And no, I'm not targeting Matt and Read. I was specifically instructed to make a staff complaint because that's how things work around here - you cannot disagree with a staff decision informally, all communications must be done through staff complaints. If that's perceived as 'stabbing people in the back', then I politely suggest the problem is with the policy that dictates that all disagreements must be solved through the medium of staff complaints.

I do agree, though, that my ban isn't and shouldn't be relevant here, so would it kill people to stop bringing it up?

 

I can't speak as to Sniblet's intentions with creating this thread, because I had no idea the thread was a thing until I saw it in the forum activity (despite claims to the contrary). I can, however, say that it'd be a little silly making a policy suggestion thread without having things hashed out and discussed informally first to determine what the best suggestion would be. Otherwise, it'd just be "here's a problem, what do we do about it", which isn't really a suggestion at all.

Edited February 8, 2023 by UponASeaOfStars

[ClemTheDuck]

im still unsure of what exactly is broken

1 hour ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

So yes, there's a problem. The problem isn't "uwu Stars got banned for putting things in briefcases", the problem is "the system is broken and this train had so many chances to stop but we still kept going full steam ahead just because we could". The first step to improving Aurora is recognising that it can be improved, and that improvement must come from a place of good faith.

the thing here is that, staff have said multiple times the ruling and how the punishment was given in resposne to that rule being broken, and even said that to initiate change on this ruling you should make a policy suggestion. This all seems pretty straight forward so i dont know why im still lost on the plot here. I keep hearing the system is broken but no one is really putting up any reasoning, explanation or reiteration beyond just constantly saying something is wrong. Either way though like what has been said ad nauseum, if there is something wrong and a change needs to be made it should be done via a policy suggestion, not whatever this is in the general boards. 

 

Way i see it, all roads are leading back to this ban, as much as you say it isnt relevant. But what i believe is the point being missed here is that there is a clear way on how staff rulings are done and there is a clear way that you can illicit change in how those rulings are done, so i dont see the point of this thread conitnuing here besides everyone rehashing the same things over and over and over again.

[Zulu0009]

1 minute ago, Don said:

So yes, you're the problem. Do what you want, but stop dragging others down with you. They don't deserve it.

I'm participating in this thread on my own volition and because I recognize Aurora has some issues that I would like to see fixed. Stars has not contacted me or asked me to post here whatsoever, and I doubt the same was done for Sniblet.

3 minutes ago, Girdio said:

It is unfortunate, but there has been a noted few incidents of Aurora staff talking about players behind their back in a way frankly disappointing (I think the security discord situation was the biggest example of this). With this in mind, is it truly surprising why someone might not want to come forward and label themselves as a whiner or something similar by the staff or other vocal players?

I can confirm this and note that (sorry for bringing you up again) when Stars posted their complaint, the SCC Personnel Terminal Discord server's general chat focused on it for 1-2 hours, at times mentioning the reply that I posted which was deleted. They, including some staff members, made fun of the complaint until I asked them to stop because I felt it was insulting. I also must note that the reason reactions were/are being removed (or not, I don't know) is because they were used in a derogatory way by members of staff. I have to admit that after that, I felt very unmotivated to spend time in-game.

31 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

There are a lot of battle cries over how staff are crushing down the players beneath a boot threatening to murder them if they speak out - but again, where has this happened?

Related to what I wrote above, I would argue that the fact that some staff members made fun of a player's complaint both in a Discord server affiliated with Aurora and on the complaint itself would deter others from posting about their own issues out of fear that they could receive the same treatment. May I ask if reactions will indeed be removed following that, or what the verdict is on them?

[Don]

10 minutes ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

No, I'm not the 'champion of the people, rising against the oppression of ss13 staff'. No, I don't plan to 'start a community rebellion or something'.

The above is a screenshot (of your original complaint), in case this isnt obvious.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Don
guh2

[ReadThisNamePlz]

7 minutes ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

No, I'm not the 'champion of the people, rising against the oppression of ss13 staff'. No, I don't plan to 'start a community rebellion or something'. And no, I'm not targeting Matt and Read. I was specifically instructed to make a staff complaint because that's how things work around here - you cannot disagree with a staff decision informally, all communications must be done through staff complaints. If that's perceived as 'stabbing people in the back', then I politely suggest the problem is with the policy that dictates that all disagreements must be solved through the medium of staff complaints.

If it wasn't obvious, I'm the admin that talked with you for the better part of two hours yesterday, in-between my doctor appointment and classes. 
You say that you're not targeting myself or Matt, but it really does come across this way. 
I'm disappointed, yet again, to see you continuing to defame the administrative team. You are making a fool of yourself and it is pointless. You're not going to change anything through this method. If players want to see policy changed, they need to make a policy change thread. 

You're not making progress here, is that not obvious?

 

[Don]

2 minutes ago, Zulu0009 said:

I'm participating in this thread on my own volition and because I recognize Aurora has some issues that I would like to see fixed. Stars has not contacted me or asked me to post here whatsoever, and I doubt the same was done for Sniblet.

I understand that, and that's exactly why I replied to them and not you. Because both you and Sniblet have many more reasons to be complaining, and because Stars' complaints devalue yours.

[WickedCybs]

I have to stand by my first lock of the thread and now the second. This is an aimless thread with people just tearing into each other and complaining about really broad topics or actions taken against them divorced of any further context along with rehashing of what's been put on over three different threads of complaints. It's not serving the intended purpose of what I believe is shining a light on the state of the community or staff.

The topic itself isn't really a problem, though. The rehashing of is. A thread on the policy suggestions section as clem said, is the better move.