Formalise PMCG subcontractor uniform standard

[Sparky_hotdog]

This discussion was initially sparked by PR by RustingWithYou to add a Phalanx uniform, and then propagated by the resprite to the Wildlands uniform I made; In essence, there seems to be a miscommunication between the dev team, lore team, and wider community, regarding what standard unique uniforms for the PMCG are held to.

The PMCG are a widely popular faction, and I believe this is largely due to their diverse nature, which unique uniforms help to show. However, I can understand the desire to have some unifying aspect to all of their designs. With that in mind, there are three options I have seen presented:

1. Remove any requirements for identifying PMCG colours to be on subcontrator uniforms. This allows the most creativity with designs, at the cost of unity.
2. Set a new standard requiring subcontractor uniforms to have the current PMCG blue colour included, likely as an accent. This adds unity, but does create issues due to the blue often clashing with other colours.
3. Revise the colour pallette for the PMCG uniforms as a whole to use the gold from their logo, rather than the current blue. This compromises on both unity and being a colour that works with more designs.

A visual aid of the Wildlands uniform according to the above suggestions:

Personally, I prefer option 3 as a solid compromise, with option 1 being a fall back as I do see the clash the blue creates with other colours. However, more than anything, I would like to see a definitive standard that all the uniforms are held to.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Sparky_hotdog
Wording

[Misiek1001]

I'd rather the uniforms went on unchanged. I'm not a fan of either of the highlighted suggestions. But, of course, if this is pushed, I suppose I'd be more inclined to the 3rd one rather than the 2nd one. I feel as if it clashes far too much.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Misiek1001

[SilverSZ]

Personally. I think the uniform with no highlights looks the best, and I'd rather keep that than either of the proposed designs with added highlights.

What I would like to ask is what the goal of having a unity with PMCG uniforms is exactly? Is it related to being able to identify people as members of security/medical/the PMCG on a mechanical level ingame? Is it just because people believe it would be a better style/lore choice? Is it because it's standardized across our other corporations or is it because of something else?

I've seen lots of arguments for keeping them diverse and personally agreed with them, so I'd like to hear what the counter-argument is against it before saying anything more.

[kyres1]

1 hour ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

miscommunication between the dev team, lore team, and wider community,

Is it a miscommunication? Not to sound upset, but as far as I'm aware, this is just a case of spriters saying "no" and giving ultimatums that people disagree with.

31 minutes ago, SilverSZ said:

What I would like to ask is what the goal of having a unity with PMCG uniforms is exactly?

My response to this entire thread is just responding to this. Why is there a uniform if it's not uniform? At that point, use the loadout to make what you want. Add highlight accessories and tags adjacent to whatever trillion-or-so origins/alignments/organizations/employers there may be to signify what you want while you wear what you want.

It's long gotten to the point where these are things that are just getting added "just because." We no longer enforce uniform regulations. Heads of staff do not care as long as you don't look like a clown. These are takeaways that demonstrate we should not add new uniforms - we've gotten what we need.

If there's a reason written in plain english as to why every single subfaction-of-a-subfaction needs a uniquely sprited uniform here, let me know, but the discourse about this whole topic is telling me that I, as a spriter, do not want it. Mind you, these are whole ass uniforms with intentionally downscaled variation from one another meant to be worn as representative work attire for their faction. This errs on needing to represent those factions from the perspective of our workplace (we don't), and further errs on a downwards spiral where we progressively drift further and further away from an actual uniform theme among them.

To finish that thought, if it looks the same or barely different from what we have, that's yet another question as to why we're making unique icons/paths for it.

[Sparky_hotdog]

Perhaps miscommunication was the wrong term, but my point was that there are differing views on what exactly the PMCG is i.e. Whether there should be differing uniforms for every contractor or just one + classic make-your-own with loadout.

I made this thread mostly because there is currently three parallel standards: Contractors with no uniforms; Contractors with entirely unique uniforms; Contractors with uniforms which were requested to have PMCG accents added. I don't think it's very hard to understand the frustration contributors can have when their sprites have changes requested to fit a standard that other existing sprites don't meet (See Phalanx vs Current Wildlands), nor when complaints are made about the mere idea of adding more contractor uniforms while others exist.

Disclaimer: I am aware that in the example of the Phalanx, some of the modifications were about more than just the accents, but they were a part of it.

Again, I personally don't really care what the outcome of this is, as long as there is an outcome that will prevent this discourse from continuing.

[Carver]

I heavily prefer the lack of highlights for several reasons. To begin with, addressing the PMCG; the appeal of this faction is that it isn’t wholly uniform, it’s different groups finding work through what is essentially a door opened by the SCC. They aren’t subsidiaries, they’re contractors - and it shows in this quote from their page “Unlike the other members of the Stellar Corporate Conglomerate, the Private Military Contracting Group has few employees of its own.” Now, does that mean I want it to be free for all just pick whatever from the loadout? Not exactly, I like the the sub groups beneath having their own uniforms - not PMCG uniforms, but something that I can look at and go “She’s Wildlands” or “He’s Phalanx” - and that’s what the unaltered uniforms offer.

The second matter to address, artistic integrity. A spriter came in with something unique, created with a particular vision, and I don’t really see the point of damaging that vision to fit some ugly sky blue or golden highlights that only serve to clash with the original design. I can understand offering feedback for, as an example, how the original Phalanx uniform PR was woefully similar to Zavodskoi’s edgelord aesthetic. It’s fair to want something to be different when it treads perhaps too closely to an existing design. But the new jumpsuits made in place of the prior fatigues had excellent designs, which made it grating to see them bogged down with clashing highlights that don’t even match their palette in the slightest.

I don’t have much else to say on the matter but to leave my argument in summary: The uniqueness of the PMCG is that the sub-groups don’t match in aesthetic or approach, and it is preferable for both aesthetic and perhaps reasons of contributor morale to let unaltered sprites stay true to their spriter’s vision (at least, where they are original in design).

edit: I have one slight more thing to add, legcuff highlights are absolutely hideous and ruin any uniform by insisting upon boots being required in order to hide them. They soil every sprite they touch. I didn’t include this in the above because it’s a purely personal taste.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Carver
An extra, personal thought

[kyres1]

4 hours ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

Perhaps miscommunication was the wrong term, but my point was that there are differing views on what exactly the PMCG is i.e. Whether there should be differing uniforms for every contractor or just one + classic make-your-own with loadout.

I made this thread mostly because there is currently three parallel standards: Contractors with no uniforms; Contractors with entirely unique uniforms; Contractors with uniforms which were requested to have PMCG accents added. I don't think it's very hard to understand the frustration contributors can have when their sprites have changes requested to fit a standard that other existing sprites don't meet (See Phalanx vs Current Wildlands), nor when complaints are made about the mere idea of adding more contractor uniforms while others exist.

Disclaimer: I am aware that in the example of the Phalanx, some of the modifications were about more than just the accents, but they were a part of it.

Again, I personally don't really care what the outcome of this is, as long as there is an outcome that will prevent this discourse from continuing.

Another spriter already weighed in on the PRs available and I believe has given a pretty decisive ruling. I think the start and finish of that problem then becomes taking it to the supervising head of staff. You can talk to the maintainers through pinging them here or DM/ping them on discord for a speedier response. If the maintainers still don't have a decision you like, you can go to the host, but at that point it's "I'm complaining" levels and no longer "I disagree" simply.

While it sounds dismissive, like I said, the reason for Wezzy's response was given. To argue the reason is a different story than this, but this is whole thread is under the assumption that there's a divided outlook. Suffice to say, if the team doesn't agree with Wezzy's response, the team is free to say so. I, however, don't, and this is basically me telling you that nobody else has either. The only people who can definitively overrule it are, again, the people above us.

As for standards other sprites don't meet, I can ramble on this for a good while. As of present we are 5-6 months into an overhaul slated originally to take a couple weeks from a one-man effort; I've sunk several hundred hours into resprites, revisions, feedback, revisions, and more resprites of things that mostly won't even make it into the game, and been in near-daily discourse for the duration of those months about the state of those sprites. Suffice to say, that's a long ass time, and an absolute assload of commitment.

To that end, there are a lot of things we can and will overlook, incidentally or purposely, in the ultimate goal of not going insane amidst all this. To say "well, other things don't stack up to the standard" is to say there is a disregard for the decision given almost solely because a decision hasn't been made before. Yet again, it's slippery slope stuff. I especially don't plan to change anything mentioned by me with that in mind.

Part of not contesting or questioning the decision not only lay in the fact that I agree with it, but also because shit like simple uniforms generating days of discourse is not something to look forward to. Again, there's way bigger projects and overarching goals under our wing than this, so it stands to reason that once we make the decision, it really shouldn't explode into tangents between dozens of people over weeks. While I don't disagree that community discussion is a key to a healthy contribution environment, I have to admit that the standard suggestion or feedback thread is getting to be so draining to confront that it's  less trouble to just not contribute or develop in the first place for most.

I sorely hope that this energy to contribute is spent on better or more needed things in the future.

[ClemTheDuck]

I will go and say that i think no highlights work the best. @Carver Sums up my thoughts on it pretty succintly. The appeal of the PMCG versus the other security factions is lack of standardisation among its members. The PMCG is one of the more unique faction concepts in terms of how they can be represented in game, and this aspect of non standardisation should be leaned into rather than moved away from. Otherwise, what is the point of having named sub contractor groups, giving them lore and unique aesthetics if we are just going to just make them all look samey?

While developers do the hard work to make the game enjoyable, i feel that player feedback should not just be discounted, there was no issues regarding the uniforms beforehand, people were genuinely excited for their designs. People arent against change, this isnt arguing or contesting for the sake of it. These are items that are used and will be used by players, and the general consensus of players (so far) has been in favour of the original and unique designs.

[The7thLain]

Hi, these new uniforms do not look good and the change is broadly unnecessary. The green looks too similar to current Hephaestus uniforms and the highlights clash heavily from a visual standpoint. I do not believe I can say anything more than what Clem and Carver have already said in terms of ICly reasons. The PMCG is a connected group of diverse, distinct identities working together as one. I'd much prefer the PMCG uniforms look even further different from each other than they do now if given the option, and further unifying the aesthetic just defeats the purpose of the faction. People want to see more individuality and uniqueness within the PMCG rather than a centralisation on a nebulous whole. In short, as a player, mod, and Human Lore Maintainer, I do not support this change and would not like to see it implemented.

[GeneralCamo]

A disagreement between artists and lore is honestly a bigger problem in my mind. It is the right of wezzy et al. to enforce a standard, but if that standard violates lore then the point of Aurora is defeated. 

That said I am fully in support of re-implementing uniform guidelines. We're getting more distinct subcontractor uniforms which is great. Now we should enforce their usage since the need to customize is obsolete now.