Remove Borging as a Punishment and change "execution" guidelines

[Omicega]

5 minutes ago, rrrrrr said:

In reply to the post above mine: ironically, characters being incredibly callous/mocking about people having their brains surgically removed and put into a mechanical slave-body is very, very grim.

Yeah, but this doesn't really matter to most people. The harsh truth is that nobody really cares about the ramifications of mocking John McAntag being removed from the round because they just want to get back to what they were doing before. Again, the public cyborgification isn't an asset for them; it's a source of frustration and they want it to be over and done with as quickly as possible. In fact, from that particular perspective, the antag themselves is arguably 'at fault' for thrusting the issue into the spotlight to begin with, so they catch all the flak for that as well.

To not go totally off topic and volunteer my personal opinion on cyborgification, I think cyborgs in general offer next to nothing to the server and that extends to their background lore as well. There's a reason I was delighted to see the remove cyborgs poll pop up a while back and very disappointed to see it fail.

[N8-Toe]

3 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

Voting for dismissal.

I don't see a major issue with borgification.
There are not a lot of cases when you can borg someone according to the regs.

• (Attempted-)Murder
• Mutiny
• Terrorist Acts
• Espionage
• Escaping from a HuT sentence.

And even then borgification shouldn't be the first step in most cases.
As mentioned by @ramke: if you notice that command is pushing hard for a borgification when that might not be reasonable you can (and should) ahelp.

Can we get it into IC regs  that is shouldn't be the first step case. I have seen it been the first step, and as mentioned I've seen the time between capture and borging be minutes. I've missed on interviewing or interrogating people as investigator because "whoops, RP's over. we're killing them".  And as an officer have been told to just take them right to the machinist, do not pass go, don't collect 200 credits. These being for those regular, first time offenses

 

As well Attempted murder is just shooting at someone. It is painfully easy to apply this to the majority of traitors and their gimmick. Making the crew, as per regs, fully justified in just killing them off

 

This is also building off what the CCIA person said here about how borging should be a last resort. I am here to tell you it is not being used as a last resort. Something needs to change policy wise to stop this. We would not consider it acceptable for the antag to just execute a security officer in cuffs because "well he shot at me". We would probably consider it ban worthy for the antag to go for headshots and shooting downed sec officers within five minutes of the conflict starting. So why is it acceptable for the crew, who should have much, much higher thresh hold for their violence. to Just kill the antag once captured. And yes, its for a few charges but those charges are not uncommon. To use mutiny as an example, we have a whole ass gamemode called revolution. So does every antag in a rev round just get to be executed once captured, according to our regs yeah? Where does that encourage roleplay? I expect that kinda thing from /TG/ station. Not Aurora

Edited October 1, 2023 by N8-Toe

[Carver]

9 hours ago, N8-Toe said:

This is a poor argument. So.. if I as a traitor involve my head of staff in the gimmick, maybe I threaten them for encroaching on me dealing drugs? well thats assault of a head of staff, red level offense. I wave a gun around, maybe pop a round or two at sec? Well thats attempted murder. Maybe I'm more subtle, distributing anti SCC flyers, encouraging people to fight the power? Mutiny. Maybe I do something fully peaceful, I try and pay off a researcher for a science disk, or nab a head of staff's special item? Corporate espionage.

 

Several of these can bring borging. So if I'm a traitor, and I dont want to get borged five minutes after I am captured, I just.. shouldn't steal sensitive items,  shouldn't use a gun or weapon, Shouldn't do anything with the setting and inciting anger or anything against the SCC factions, deffinitly not involve a head of staff. This is not extremely aggressive. this is just par for the course antagging.

 

on the kid gloves. A traitor is possibly going 1 v 6 or so versus security. They are given mechanical tools to complete this, as well fight off the sec hordes. but they also should be given breathing room via RP and rules. We cannot as a playerbase sit and say we want interesting antags, we want good antags, we want good stories. And then borg them right after capture. at that point we are failing our end of the bargain. Borging should not be an option anymore, and the standards to kill the antag once captured and in cuffs and take them out of the round higher.

Flyers would be sedition, not mutiny (Also distributing anti corporate flyers on the SCC’s flagship is impossibly stupid). Assault of a Head of Staff does not result in cyborgification, and if it does either the Captain is breaking the rules or you’re being disingenuous and did something else alongside it. If you’re popping off shots to the extent of gaining an attempted murder charge, you’re not merely ‘running from sec and trying to ward them off’. Espionage is what it is, don’t expect to be treated nicely as an overt corporate saboteur on the SCC’s flagship.

If you’re often getting cyborgified, then either you’re running into a very curious recurring Captain or Command roster, or perhaps you need to self-reflect on your antagonistic style. If you’re getting caught fully red handed after committing a Cyborgification-worthy charge, then I’d say you deserved it - you either put minimal effort into obscuring your activities, or the Detective is well and truly competent and followed a trail (this is rarer than you think if you actually try to obfuscate said trail).

Ultimately, I want good stories. I don’t want people trying to murder willy nilly; popping off gunshots like they’re going out of style, and assuming murder is often an interesting story (it very, very rarely is). Mutiny is the only case where the antagonist was usually doing something truly interesting, and then said cyborgification becomes a wonderful vehicle to instigate response from other revolutionaries; if it doesn’t, well, you didn’t really get people’s interest to begin with.
 

I want traitors who exercise a degree of subtlety, revolutionaries who truly provoke me into wanting to pick a side and so forth. Considering that, the apathy from the crew is often something you earned just as much as the cyborgification.

[Spungus]

I feel like borging is less RP-conducive than just killing or marooning someone, mostly because your character that you've been playing the whole round gets lobotomized in a machine and then you have to roleplay as a robot. That sucks. It isn't fun for the antag. Then you get mocked and booed despite being thrust into eternal slavery for until your brain rots (which isn't going to happen for a long time) and either ghost or play borg until the shift ends.

At least with marooning you get to be away from the ship and all of the murder-happy corporate employees who will use your borgification to go 'ugh borgification is so gross' 'so real, girl' and the machinist can go 'oh god what have I done this is just like Bobby J. Poopenheimer'

TL;DR It's a great roleplay outlet for other people, but the antag gets no joy.

[N8-Toe]

1 minute ago, Carver said:

Flyers would be sedition, not mutiny (Also distributing anti corporate flyers on the SCC’s flagship is impossibly stupid). Assault of a Head of Staff does not result in cyborgification, and if it does either the Captain is breaking the rules or you’re being disingenuous and did something else alongside it. If you’re popping off shots to the extent of gaining an attempted murder charge, you’re not merely ‘running from sec and trying to ward them off’. Espionage is what it is, don’t expect to be treated nicely as an overt corporate saboteur on the SCC’s flagship.

If you’re often getting cyborgified, then either you’re running into a very curious recurring Captain or Command roster, or perhaps you need to self-reflect on your antagonistic style. If you’re getting caught fully red handed after committing a Cyborgification-worthy charge, then I’d say you deserved it - you either put minimal effort into obscuring your activities, or the Detective is well and truly competent and followed a trail (this is rarer than you think if you actually try to obfuscate said trail).

Ultimately, I want good stories. I don’t want people trying to murder willy nilly; popping off gunshots like they’re going out of style, and assuming murder is often an interesting story (it very, very rarely is). Mutiny is the only case where the antagonist was usually doing something truly interesting, and then said cyborgification becomes a wonderful vehicle to instigate response from other revolutionaries; if it doesn’t, well, you didn’t really get people’s interest to begin with.
 

I want traitors who exercise a degree of subtlety, revolutionaries who truly provoke me into wanting to pick a side and so forth. Considering that, the apathy from the crew is often something you earned just as much as the cyborgification.

so here's the fun fact. I dont play onstation antag. I main investigator, and some security officer lately. This isn't a salt, this isn't me complaining because I've been borged abunch since I never have been. Not that it should matter, I just dislike the idea that "well get good" as a response to criticism

 

To be quiet honest this line of thinking is not productive, and places all of the power back into the hands of command and sec to be "benevolent" to the antag. "Well it'd be stupid to be anti corporate on the SCC flagship" we have a gamemode called revolution, we have autotraitor. Just dismissing any anticorporate action as stupid or unrealistic pulls the rug out from the mere idea of these antags gimmicks and undercuts their ability to make those good stories you say you want, especially without murder. I mean, your not going to take my protest infront of the bridge seriously because I mean who am I but a mere mortal vs the narrative mary sue of the SCC. Despite being in deep space billions of light years from the SCC's resources. So I may as well take the captain hostage right and demand? Well whoops I've been captured because I didn't want to go popping off and murdering, since as you said thats not a good story.

 

My reward is I am borged within five minutes of being captured. This line of thinking that is it is on the game modes selected antagnosits, to not "go to far" or else any form of valid hunting or unfun things done them is earned, is unproductive. Creating those good stories you and I both want requires everyone involved. the antag, command, security, and everyone else. to play to make that story, to give the benefit of the doubt, and to have a "yes and" attitude. Currently, you dont get that benefit as antag and it prevents us having those good stories. And I will also say if I'm a rev and my fellow revs get borged, its not prompting more good non violent RP. at that point my options are kill everyone in command and sec, or die. So... its gonna get bloody

[rrrrrr]

This is only partly related, but I think it's a cultural problem where people will see an antag's gimmick and go "this is dumb. This is so stupid. I need to prove this wrong, immediately." Revolutionaries taking action? "Um, who cares? Bad idea? We still have jobs? You're dumb?" Traitors traitoring? "Ummm, you realize you're gonna die, right? We're gonna kill you? So stupid." Mercenaries? "You know we have a giant railgun, right, dumb-dumb? You big dummy. Shoulda just stayed home."

Gonna be blunt: this is weird Reddit behavior. I do not play antag and I groan every time I see this. The fact that they had to make a new policy so that command just doesn't go "source?" at every out-there announcement that ties into the traitor's gimmick speaks volumes about how most people deal with antags. The genuine hatred I see for people who play as antags is weird, too. Super weird. Yes, a lot of gamemodes have issues. No, that doesn't mean they should be removed. I've seen very few bad antags. Quite a few boring ones, quite a few who get captured by the largest department in the game whose entire job is based around hunting them down, but none that I would call bad. A heck of a lot of great antags, too.

I think it goes without saying that people dragging antags to the roboticist's lab within minutes of capture probably stems, at least in some cases, from an OOC dislike of antags.

[Carver]

23 minutes ago, N8-Toe said:

so here's the fun fact. I dont play onstation antag. I main investigator, and some security officer lately. This isn't a salt, this isn't me complaining because I've been borged abunch since I never have been. Not that it should matter, I just dislike the idea that "well get good" as a response to criticism

 

To be quiet honest this line of thinking is not productive, and places all of the power back into the hands of command and sec to be "benevolent" to the antag. "Well it'd be stupid to be anti corporate on the SCC flagship" we have a gamemode called revolution, we have autotraitor. Just dismissing any anticorporate action as stupid or unrealistic pulls the rug out from the mere idea of these antags gimmicks and undercuts their ability to make those good stories you say you want, especially without murder. I mean, your not going to take my protest infront of the bridge seriously because I mean who am I but a mere mortal vs the narrative mary sue of the SCC. Despite being in deep space billions of light years from the SCC's resources. So I may as well take the captain hostage right and demand? Well whoops I've been captured because I didn't want to go popping off and murdering, since as you said thats not a good story.

 

My reward is I am borged within five minutes of being captured. This line of thinking that is it is on the game modes selected antagnosits, to not "go to far" or else any form of valid hunting or unfun things done them is earned, is unproductive. Creating those good stories you and I both want requires everyone involved. the antag, command, security, and everyone else. to play to make that story, to give the benefit of the doubt, and to have a "yes and" attitude. Currently, you dont get that benefit as antag and it prevents us having those good stories. And I will also say if I'm a rev and my fellow revs get borged, its not prompting more good non violent RP. at that point my options are kill everyone in command and sec, or die. So... its gonna get bloody

I’ll softly remind you that security has no power as to whether or not an antagonist has been cyborgified. The power has always been with Command, and solely the Captain unless there is a unanimous vote. My calling flyers stupid is more an observation on this being the megacorporate flagship, not a neighbourhood - if you try it, you’ll get arrested within minutes because any Detective worth his salt will discover you did it. You will never get cyborgified for it, either (even if you write “LYNCH ALL COMMAND” on your flyers to try and get it raised to a Mutiny charge it’s exceptionally unlikely).
 

Death is very rarely an interesting story, it’s removing another player from the round - often in a way that seldom produces anything but the player leaving until next round while you’re justifiably responded to in full force by Security. If you get cyborgified for murder, then I stand by that you deserve it. For the other charges? Again, if revs are getting borged that’s good for you; it’s the kind of action that, if you’ve been weaving a good narrative via announcement and so forth, will get the crew further involved and willing to participate (particularly if command announces the decision, as I’d hope they would in such a round). If you took the Captain hostage, well, you’ve played yourself into a corner where your only out is escaping the ship or meeting an unfortunate end - I don’t know what to tell you.

Don’t get me wrong, I see that antagonists have problems. But cyborgification isn’t one of them, and if it’s being abused there’s a whitelist issue at hand. Those problems are for another discussion, and in many cases I’ve already argued against said problems elsewhere (i.e. industrial sec, overgeared sec, the nature of the medical system being in favour of crew, server culture having a disdain for particular backgrounds in a gimmick [Solarian ones, primarily], lack of any real recovery downtime after crew receive intense surgery and so on ad infinitum). Cyborgification, if it’s happening often, is merely a symptom of genuine issues - not an issue in itself.

[HanSolo1519]

14 hours ago, GeneralCamo said:

This has been a long time coming.

I honestly do not mind this being an IC change. Borging doesn't add anything to our setting that other things can't do. Yes it shows we live in a corporate dystopia, but cyborgification is so laughably evil and honestly, considering how it is used to instantly remove antagonists, counter-productive to even the corporate interests:

 

Personally, I hope that we keep the storytelling aspect of it, despite whatever we do with it. Even if it's 'Keep them in permabrig for transfer, they'll be borged offscreen'.

Edited October 1, 2023 by HanSolo1519

[Aphelion]

42 minutes ago, rrrrrr said:

This is only partly related, but I think it's a cultural problem where people will see an antag's gimmick and go "this is dumb. This is so stupid. I need to prove this wrong, immediately." Revolutionaries taking action? "Um, who cares? Bad idea? We still have jobs? You're dumb?" Traitors traitoring? "Ummm, you realize you're gonna die, right? We're gonna kill you? So stupid." Mercenaries? "You know we have a giant railgun, right, dumb-dumb? You big dummy. Shoulda just stayed home."

This is so fucking true, but it's getting off topic. There's been more than one occasion where the active heads will collectively decide to just ignore a gimick if they're oocly tired of it. I had it happen to me and I just wound up standing there with my hand up my ass going "Well fuck what now"

 

Also man this entire thread is full of so much gaslighting.

Post A "People are getting borged, and not as a last resort. We have seen it happen in round"

Post B "No they're not, if you're getting borged you're probably a shitty antag, you need to be subtler or something asshole"

 

Every time I've tried being subtle as traitor, I get ignored.

A few of the times I've done anything that could be percieved as potentially lethal, I have had interviews skipped and had 'attempted murder' slapped on it. Which is what many people are mentioning repeatedly as an issue that just fucking sucks.

[Ublicto]

9 minutes ago, Carver said:

I’ll softly remind you that security has no power as to whether or not an antagonist has been cyborgified. The power has always been with Command, and solely the Captain unless there is a unanimous vote. My calling flyers stupid is more an observation on this being the megacorporate flagship, not a neighbourhood - if you try it, you’ll get arrested within minutes because any Detective worth his salt will discover you did it. You will never get cyborgified for it, either (even if you write “LYNCH ALL COMMAND” on your flyers to try and get it raised to a Mutiny charge it’s exceptionally unlikely).
 

Death is very rarely an interesting story, it’s removing another player from the round - often in a way that seldom produces anything but the player leaving until next round while you’re justifiably responded to in full force by Security. If you get cyborgified for murder, then I stand by that you deserve it. For the other charges? Again, if revs are getting borged that’s good for you; it’s the kind of action that, if you’ve been weaving a good narrative via announcement and so forth, will get the crew further involved and willing to participate (particularly if command announces the decision, as I’d hope they would in such a round). If you took the Captain hostage, well, you’ve played yourself into a corner where your only out is escaping the ship or meeting an unfortunate end - I don’t know what to tell you.

Don’t get me wrong, I see that antagonists have problems. But cyborgification isn’t one of them, and if it’s being abused there’s a whitelist issue at hand. Those problems are for another discussion, and in many cases I’ve already argued against said problems elsewhere (i.e. industrial sec, overgeared sec, the nature of the medical system being in favour of crew, server culture having a disdain for particular backgrounds in a gimmick [Solarian ones, primarily], lack of any real recovery downtime after crew receive intense surgery and so on ad infinitum). Cyborgification, if it’s happening often, is merely a symptom of genuine issues - not an issue in itself.

I have to be honest this is exactly the type of cultural problem that other posters, the OP, and I are complaining about. You are giving almost zero credit to the antag and demanding an impossible level of planning and complex gimmick creation from them. If I am an antag I have to do antag things for my gimmick - I need to provide some type of escalation that makes it fun. It's rare that I can think of a solely roleplay gimmick that involves everyone. Your idea that antags deserve to be borged essentially for being antags and doing antag things is absurd and a great example of a bad culture that detracts from the game. If you care so much about not killing someone to remove them from the round why do you want to kill the antag so much? Why don't you want to roleplay with them? What roleplay value is taking them to the machinist regardless of their protests, their diplomatic value, or any other reason and killing them?

If an antag takes a hostage it is usually as a last resort because people do not let antags cook around here most of the time. When I do it I'm criticized for sandbagging security and I notice that most of the time that criticism comes from people who IMO borderline metagame and valid hunt or flat out do not play antag. You have impossible standards and are not applying those standards equally to crew and to the antag.

 

 

[Carver]

25 minutes ago, Ublicto said:

I have to be honest this is exactly the type of cultural problem that other posters, the OP, and I are complaining about. You are giving almost zero credit to the antag and demanding an impossible level of planning and complex gimmick creation from them. If I am an antag I have to do antag things for my gimmick - I need to provide some type of escalation that makes it fun. It's rare that I can think of a solely roleplay gimmick that involves everyone. Your idea that antags deserve to be borged essentially for being antags and doing antag things is absurd and a great example of a bad culture that detracts from the game. If you care so much about not killing someone to remove them from the round why do you want to kill the antag so much? Why don't you want to roleplay with them? What roleplay value is taking them to the machinist regardless of their protests, their diplomatic value, or any other reason and killing them?

If an antag takes a hostage it is usually as a last resort because people do not let antags cook around here most of the time. When I do it I'm criticized for sandbagging security and I notice that most of the time that criticism comes from people who IMO borderline metagame and valid hunt or flat out do not play antag. You have impossible standards and are not applying those standards equally to crew and to the antag.

You’re blatantly ignoring my last paragraph if you think my standards are double sided, or that I’m giving no credit. In every post so far, I’ve recommended ahelping if you believe command to be acting out of line. The issues with antags, as said before, lay nowhere at the end of their journey but rather on everything before that end. It is a mountain of issues, many stemming from this expectation for antagonists to be theatre actors and provide some gimmick that everybody notices - and many stemming from the cards being so stacked against them that they have to be prepared to kill security.

Again, cyborgification becoming common in any regard is a symptom, not an issue in itself.

[Ublicto]

4 minutes ago, Carver said:

You’re blatantly ignoring my last paragraph if you think my standards are double sided, or that I’m giving no credit. In every post so far, I’ve recommended ahelping if you believe command to be acting out of line. The issues with antags, as said before, lay nowhere at the end of their journey but rather on everything before that end. It is a mountain of issues, many stemming from this expectation for antagonists to be theatre actors and provide some gimmick that everybody notices - and many stemming from the cards being so stacked against them that they have to be prepared to kill security.

Again, cyborgification becoming common in any regard is a symptom, not an issue in itself.

That recommendation means nothing. Do you think I do not do that already? It is insanely difficult to prove metagaming or rule breaking play from command or security in all but the most blatant of circumstances and even when it is blatant usually the punishment is much less severe than for the antag when they do something comparable because more people were involved and there is less individual responsibility. I have been antag banned for playing extremely aggressively in a way I have seen sec play and given notes for ruining one person's round by ambushing them. However, I have not seen players I reported for bad play including running up to me and disarming me as a heavily armored antag shooting at them or straight up doing everything in their power to ruin my gimmick treated in the same way. This is because security and command are much harder to moderate than individual antags because there are more of them and they're given a lot of leniency when it comes to dealing with the antag I don't necessarily think they deserve. I already ahelp whenever I think sec or command runs me over and it doesn't do a thing most of the time to address the larger issue which is one of culture among players. Even though I have had positive experiences with the admins and despite them ruling against me or criticizing me they have explained in detail what their problem is I do not think you can just offload the responsibility of making the game fun to admins who in some rounds are already overworked. You play the game, you make it fun. The best rules require the least enforcement from admins because there is a cultural trend of following them.

Ahelping is not an effective solution, what we are complaining about is a negative part of the server culture that makes it hard to be an engaging antag in the first place. Borging is a symptom for sure but how can you cure a disease if you do not address the symptoms?

A perfect solution to this is an announcement similar to the one about not constantly asking for confirmation from central command. This time it can be something along the lines of "sec and command must let the antag cook and not basically conspire to stunlock and borg them at the first chance". Something like that would immediately improve the quality of the game and change the server culture for the better.

[Carver]

1 hour ago, Ublicto said:

That recommendation means nothing. Do you think I do not do that already? It is insanely difficult to prove metagaming or rule breaking play from command or security in all but the most blatant of circumstances and even when it is blatant usually the punishment is much less severe than for the antag when they do something comparable because more people were involved and there is less individual responsibility. I have been antag banned for playing extremely aggressively in a way I have seen sec play and given notes for ruining one person's round by ambushing them. However, I have not seen players I reported for bad play including running up to me and disarming me as a heavily armored antag shooting at them or straight up doing everything in their power to ruin my gimmick treated in the same way. This is because security and command are much harder to moderate than individual antags because there are more of them and they're given a lot of leniency when it comes to dealing with the antag I don't necessarily think they deserve. I already ahelp whenever I think sec or command runs me over and it doesn't do a thing most of the time to address the larger issue which is one of culture among players. Even though I have had positive experiences with the admins and despite them ruling against me or criticizing me they have explained in detail what their problem is I do not think you can just offload the responsibility of making the game fun to admins who in some rounds are already overworked. You play the game, you make it fun. The best rules require the least enforcement from admins because there is a cultural trend of following them.

Ahelping is not an effective solution, what we are complaining about is a negative part of the server culture that makes it hard to be an engaging antag in the first place. Borging is a symptom for sure but how can you cure a disease if you do not address the symptoms?

A perfect solution to this is an announcement similar to the one about not constantly asking for confirmation from central command. This time it can be something along the lines of "sec and command must let the antag cook and not basically conspire to stunlock and borg them at the first chance". Something like that would immediately improve the quality of the game and change the server culture for the better.

Covering up a symptom doesn’t cure anything. If you believe that your ahelps are going unheard or that you were unjustly punished by staff, then there are other tools; player complaints and staff complaints, respectively.

What you’re asking for already exists, whether or not you see it, that exact behaviour is punishable.

[Aphelion]

3 hours ago, Spungus said:

TL;DR It's a great roleplay outlet for other people, but the antag gets no joy.

The bucket response for this is that 'antags aren't meant to have fun, they're meant to make the round funner for others' which is a little annoying, and probably the reason that lots of the time secret is voted, we proceed to roll through every possible round type before getting extended.

Again it's part of the problem that leads to antags being hated, sec and command are entitled as fuck, and people who main those roles have seen basically every gimick, and refuse to let anyone cook because they're bored with it before the antag has even done anything.

[Ublicto]

20 minutes ago, Carver said:

Covering up a symptom doesn’t cure anything. If you believe that your ahelps are going unheard or that you were unjustly punished by staff, then there are other tools; player complaints and staff complaints, respectively.

What you’re asking for already exists, whether or not you see it, that exact behaviour is punishable.

I did not say I had problems that I was being treated unfairly, I said that the difference between antag and command/sec play makes it easier to moderate the antag and a cultural problem makes this difference worse. You are offering no solution and instead insisting that the way things are is fine and requires no changes whatsoever.

[Duthco]

To stay with an analogy that has been used so far, for ideal medical outcomes, a physician doesn't ignore symptoms, they treat them and their causes. Sometimes when the causes are chronic, symptom management is all that is possible. I would not go so far as to say that the causes of what are cited as problems throughout this thread are intractable in that way, but they do seem to be beyond the scope of this particular suggestion thread.  That is also not to say these concerns shouldn't be discoursed over and addressed elsewhere.

 

I don't think cyborgification as a high order punishment should be removed, but I do think it should not be ordered lightly. (As was stated elsewhere, such practices are a focal point of literal galactic conflict.)

Given the stringent standard for continuously holding such a position, I assume those with the authority to do so, indeed ICly weigh that choice, as it would be quite a missed RP opportunity otherwise.

 

[Carver]

38 minutes ago, Ublicto said:

I did not say I had problems that I was being treated unfairly, I said that the difference between antag and command/sec play makes it easier to moderate the antag and a cultural problem makes this difference worse. You are offering no solution and instead insisting that the way things are is fine and requires no changes whatsoever.

Then you’re not reading anything I’m saying, because I mention there are issues that need changing (I even listed them nicely in one post). Cyborgification is not an issue, and it doesn’t need changing. If you don’t see turning to server staff for cases of abuse (which are already against the rules) as a solution, then I can’t help you.

[N8-Toe]

Ok so I'm going to give an example of two rounds I played this weekend with borging. And highlight the issue I have with it and as an example of why borging as a punishment needs to go. I wont be naming names as well

 

1: Traitor uses their TC to buy two announcements. saying PMCG crew's contracts are severed, and getting fined 500 credits. All of sec is PMCG essentially and canned. so warden opens armory and tries to organize sec to go get their moneys worth. There is RP, taking sides, and fun conflict. its a good gimmick, infact a great gimmick. They post up infront of the bridge with a gun, demanding the captain come out. they shoot Ian, they RP with people. its great. first issue unrelated to borging is people heckling them, even coming up to be mean and call the armed angry man stupid to his face. But so much "oh the fact you lost your job on a ship in deep space and have no money for food and rent is a non issue, god why are you being a snowflake". Which is bad RP, and is trying to rugpull the antags gimmick. its a good gimmick. So Eventually a PMCG rep joins and manages to convince the other sec on promises of new jobs, to arrest the warden. Well.. the warden who has at this point provided an hour and a half of good RP, conflict, and stakes. is shot and captured... and borged within minutes without even an announcement or fanfare. They didn't kill anyone, didn't even break into the bridge but BOOM borged. They provided 90 minutes of good conflict and RP and in return got none. They where not an uncontainable threat like people here say borging is for. Nah they just mutinied and got borged. If I was them, I'd quit playing antag. spend an hour getting heckled and single handedly driving a round just to be zoop, quick borged on capture? How is that fair to that player, how is that fun, how is that creating RP and being a good roleplayer? Its just shutting them down in the most final way possible. "Funs over, RP gravy train is over and I dont want to deal with the antag so borg them"

 

2: Vampire round. I dont remember all the details but I think it was all said and done a pretty good one! Now the vampire had taken several thralls, including a tajara officer. Which during the climatic showdown in the captains office. they ordered the Tajara to kill the HoS. What follows is a confusing fight between the tajara, HoS, and other officers who dont know whats happening and its hectic, confusing, no one knows whos on what side. So... fun, thats a great moment to reflect and RP on. So the Tajara is captured annnnnd to be borged. They never make it to the brig, they go form medical to the machinist shop. They try and RP the vamp made them but nope, on the table and out comes the brain. Next, another officer is accused of being part of it. There is no investigation, infact there is confusion if he was there, with some saying he was, some saying he wasn't... but Cap doesn't care. he gets borged too. No interrogations, No investigations, No RP, not even going to processing. They just get borged. All of that chance for RP, for conflict, for fun, gone. But the bad man lost.

 

 

in both of these examples the round was made worse by borging. the antag who RP'ed and gave a good round was rewarded with being cuffed and just killed off after capture. Further RP, conflict, and investigation was denied. Why, with these examples in mind, should we keep borging. throwing them in the brig, interrogating them, actually *gasp* RP'ing with the antag would have provided more to the round and the players involved.

 

Also these people where borged for single charges. not for a whole round of multiple murders and escapes. If what people are saying here that "borging is the last resort" well here is your proof it is not. So we should remove it. keep marooning as the last resort.

[GeneralCamo]

Requiring oversight would be just as effective at killing it entirely, for those examples you mentioned. CCIA being the sole entity doing it would perhaps be a problem though if they aren't in the round, I will concede that. A solution to that would be to give admins the power to fax for this as well. Call it a general SCC oversight committee rather than just CCIA.

[CampinKiller]

I don’t think there should be any external oversight or authorization needed for in round punishments, save on an OOC level for people potentially breaking the rules. Admin run or not

[N8-Toe]

 

Just now, CampinKiller said:

I don’t think there should be any external oversight or authorization needed for in round punishments, save on an OOC level for people potentially breaking the rules. Admin run or not

I do agree with that. waiting on a fax reply kills RP. So I think the simplest is just removing borging as an option, and for marooning just raising the IC barrier for it

[rrrrrr]

1 hour ago, N8-Toe said:

words

Think I personally witnessed example number-one, here. I was leaving the ship (Coalition surveyor, got stuck, it's a long story) and had talked to the mutineers a few times, mostly because I also wanted to talk to the Captain and work out how I'd pay for the medical treatment my character had received and negotiate leaving. Anyways, on my way out, I see the Warden getting rolled out of the medical bay, and they shout at me: "GADPATHURIAN! HELP!"

It was pretty nuts.

Anyways, both of these examples sound like poor play by the people responsible. Like, "shoulda ahelped" levels. Just my two cents.

[Aphelion]

1 hour ago, N8-Toe said:

1: Traitor uses their TC to buy two announcements. saying PMCG crew's contracts are severed, and getting fined 500 credits. All of sec is PMCG essentially and canned. so warden opens armory and tries to organize sec to go get their moneys worth. There is RP, taking sides, and fun conflict. its a good gimmick, infact a great gimmick. They post up infront of the bridge with a gun, demanding the captain come out. they shoot Ian, they RP with people. its great. first issue unrelated to borging is people heckling them, even coming up to be mean and call the armed angry man stupid to his face. But so much "oh the fact you lost your job on a ship in deep space and have no money for food and rent is a non issue, god why are you being a snowflake". Which is bad RP, and is trying to rugpull the antags gimmick. its a good gimmick. So Eventually a PMCG rep joins and manages to convince the other sec on promises of new jobs, to arrest the warden. Well.. the warden who has at this point provided an hour and a half of good RP, conflict, and stakes. is shot and captured... and borged within minutes without even an announcement or fanfare. They didn't kill anyone, didn't even break into the bridge but BOOM borged. They provided 90 minutes of good conflict and RP and in return got none. They where not an uncontainable threat like people here say borging is for. Nah they just mutinied and got borged. If I was them, I'd quit playing antag. spend an hour getting heckled and single handedly driving a round just to be zoop, quick borged on capture? How is that fair to that player, how is that fun, how is that creating RP and being a good roleplayer? Its just shutting them down in the most final way possible. "Funs over, RP gravy train is over and I dont want to deal with the antag so borg them"

This was basically one of the better rounds that week. Holy shit. I had no idea command took him straight to getting borged. WTF is wrong with people? 

[Duthco]

5 hours ago, N8-Toe said:

Ok so I'm going to give an example of two rounds I played this weekend with borging. And highlight the issue I have with it and as an example of why borging as a punishment needs to go. I wont be naming names as well

 

1: Traitor uses their TC to buy two announcements. saying PMCG crew's contracts are severed, and getting fined 500 credits. All of sec is PMCG essentially and canned. so warden opens armory and tries to organize sec to go get their moneys worth. There is RP, taking sides, and fun conflict. its a good gimmick, infact a great gimmick. They post up infront of the bridge with a gun, demanding the captain come out. they shoot Ian, they RP with people. its great. first issue unrelated to borging is people heckling them, even coming up to be mean and call the armed angry man stupid to his face. But so much "oh the fact you lost your job on a ship in deep space and have no money for food and rent is a non issue, god why are you being a snowflake". Which is bad RP, and is trying to rugpull the antags gimmick. its a good gimmick. So Eventually a PMCG rep joins and manages to convince the other sec on promises of new jobs, to arrest the warden. Well.. the warden who has at this point provided an hour and a half of good RP, conflict, and stakes. is shot and captured... and borged within minutes without even an announcement or fanfare. They didn't kill anyone, didn't even break into the bridge but BOOM borged. They provided 90 minutes of good conflict and RP and in return got none. They where not an uncontainable threat like people here say borging is for. Nah they just mutinied and got borged. If I was them, I'd quit playing antag. spend an hour getting heckled and single handedly driving a round just to be zoop, quick borged on capture? How is that fair to that player, how is that fun, how is that creating RP and being a good roleplayer? Its just shutting them down in the most final way possible. "Funs over, RP gravy train is over and I dont want to deal with the antag so borg them"

 

2: Vampire round. I dont remember all the details but I think it was all said and done a pretty good one! Now the vampire had taken several thralls, including a tajara officer. Which during the climatic showdown in the captains office. they ordered the Tajara to kill the HoS. What follows is a confusing fight between the tajara, HoS, and other officers who dont know whats happening and its hectic, confusing, no one knows whos on what side. So... fun, thats a great moment to reflect and RP on. So the Tajara is captured annnnnd to be borged. They never make it to the brig, they go form medical to the machinist shop. They try and RP the vamp made them but nope, on the table and out comes the brain. Next, another officer is accused of being part of it. There is no investigation, infact there is confusion if he was there, with some saying he was, some saying he wasn't... but Cap doesn't care. he gets borged too. No interrogations, No investigations, No RP, not even going to processing. They just get borged. All of that chance for RP, for conflict, for fun, gone. But the bad man lost.

 

in both of these examples the round was made worse by borging. the antag who RP'ed and gave a good round was rewarded with being cuffed and just killed off after capture. Further RP, conflict, and investigation was denied. Why, with these examples in mind, should we keep borging. throwing them in the brig, interrogating them, actually *gasp* RP'ing with the antag would have provided more to the round and the players involved.

 

Also these people where borged for single charges. not for a whole round of multiple murders and escapes. If what people are saying here that "borging is the last resort" well here is your proof it is not. So we should remove it. keep marooning as the last resort.

I don't think Example 2 is effective evidence for cyborgification being a bad thing. It does, however, make compelling evidence that its manner of usage matters a great deal.

 

In Example 2, I played a Cadet ordered to wheel the Tajaran Officer from Medbay to the Machinists' and was in the room when the order to borg was given.

I was deeply unsure whether or not the Other Officer, as they were hauled into Machining, acted against the Commander at all, (I was on the other side of some shutters during the fight, and saw glimpses of it.) but the Captain gave the order to borg. Given significant IC pressure to answer to IC power dynamics, not complying was unthinkable, even as I tried to make a case of reasonable doubt for the Other Officer, an attempt to convince the Captain to wait and try to learn more about that Officer's role in the altercation, while they themselves pleaded with the room to not to be borged. My only realistic choice was to comply with the Captain's orders, stand aside, and suffer some IC trauma. 

I would say, there was good RP in the hectic moments through the borgings. It was heartbreaking, and it didn't feel good, but it was good RP. (I cannot attest to the experience for others in the room, especially the Borged, so do consider that.) In the final moments as the Other Officer was put on the table, I remember telling the Captain I didn't like this, and they effectively said, "Tough. Leave us, and go secure the ship," (Which, to me, felt like exactly the right response to a Cadet's questioning of proceedings.) 

I'm not a fan of the Captain's choice to order a straight-to-borg without any process or interrogation, or any real effort to get at the truth of what happened, but, the Captain is a character-person who would make boundedly rational choices, (that the Command-WhiteListed Player is notably tasked with balancing against round-pacing.) Further, that Captain's immediate subordinate was executed by one or more of their immediate subordinates. And, perhaps most importantly, such orders, (Given that participation in the killing of a HoS is most certainly a borgable offence, see i303.) are the prerogative of a Captain: they need only justify themselves to the SCC at the end of the day. So, while I am not a fan of the Captain's choice, I don't think the Player did anything wrong.  In-character choices were made in a high-pressure environment with imperfect information, and punishment for mutiny (i303), for which the slaying of a HoS qualifies, is marooning or cyborgification. The Captain trusted the evidence available (particularly the confident testimony of another member of Command who said they witnessed the altercation) and made a choice. 

(In post, I'm 98% sure the Other Officer was completely innocent, but got borged anyway, which is sublimely tragic, but exactly the kind of thing you would expect to see in our dystopia.)

 

- Most importantly, I would say, in Example 2, these borgings took place during or very close to the round end vote. The round-arc, so to speak, I would argue, was completed by these borgings, and not interrupted by them. The players whose characters were borged were not missing much ordinary gameplay.

Were these borgings carried out a mere hour into in the round, or if there wasn't a massive culminating conflict (e.g.. the confusing fight that left the Commander dead, and blood on people's hands) for which the borgings offered some conclusion, I would be making a very different argument.  I am confident that there are potentially other examples that make the case intended for this one, but such a case this particular example does not make in my opinion. Additionally, the charge was ultimately mutiny, an intolerable offence to the SCC, for which there is only a final punishment: maroon'em or borg'em. 

A person might choose one or the other for a multitude of reasons, ICly and OOCly. It doesn't make sense to me to demand that one choose one or the other, as cases are always going to be situational, and the greater good of RP whom it stands to benefit is also going to be situational. 

 

As a couple of final notes:

- I would like to note again, I'm personally arguing that borging should be used as a last resort, akin to marooning, depending on that particular Command's favored style of execution-adjacent punishment.

- It would be nice if we took the kind of care we expect to see from our antagonists and helped them build the story, since this is ultimately a collaborative storytelling game. 

[N8-Toe]

4 hours ago, Duthco said:

I don't think Example 2 is effective evidence for cyborgification being a bad thing. It does, however, make compelling evidence that its manner of usage matters a great deal.

 

In Example 2, I played a Cadet ordered to wheel the Tajaran Officer from Medbay to the Machinists' and was in the room when the order to borg was given.

I was deeply unsure whether or not the Other Officer, as they were hauled into Machining, acted against the Commander at all, (I was on the other side of some shutters during the fight, and saw glimpses of it.) but the Captain gave the order to borg. Given significant IC pressure to answer to IC power dynamics, not complying was unthinkable, even as I tried to make a case of reasonable doubt for the Other Officer, an attempt to convince the Captain to wait and try to learn more about that Officer's role in the altercation, while they themselves pleaded with the room to not to be borged. My only realistic choice was to comply with the Captain's orders, stand aside, and suffer some IC trauma. 

I would say, there was good RP in the hectic moments through the borgings. It was heartbreaking, and it didn't feel good, but it was good RP. (I cannot attest to the experience for others in the room, especially the Borged, so do consider that.) In the final moments as the Other Officer was put on the table, I remember telling the Captain I didn't like this, and they effectively said, "Tough. Leave us, and go secure the ship," (Which, to me, felt like exactly the right response to a Cadet's questioning of proceedings.) 

I'm not a fan of the Captain's choice to order a straight-to-borg without any process or interrogation, or any real effort to get at the truth of what happened, but, the Captain is a character-person who would make boundedly rational choices, (that the Command-WhiteListed Player is notably tasked with balancing against round-pacing.) Further, that Captain's immediate subordinate was executed by one or more of their immediate subordinates. And, perhaps most importantly, such orders, (Given that participation in the killing of a HoS is most certainly a borgable offence, see i303.) are the prerogative of a Captain: they need only justify themselves to the SCC at the end of the day. So, while I am not a fan of the Captain's choice, I don't think the Player did anything wrong.  In-character choices were made in a high-pressure environment with imperfect information, and punishment for mutiny (i303), for which the slaying of a HoS qualifies, is marooning or cyborgification. The Captain trusted the evidence available (particularly the confident testimony of another member of Command who said they witnessed the altercation) and made a choice. 

(In post, I'm 98% sure the Other Officer was completely innocent, but got borged anyway, which is sublimely tragic, but exactly the kind of thing you would expect to see in our dystopia.)

 

- Most importantly, I would say, in Example 2, these borgings took place during or very close to the round end vote. The round-arc, so to speak, I would argue, was completed by these borgings, and not interrupted by them. The players whose characters were borged were not missing much ordinary gameplay.

Were these borgings carried out a mere hour into in the round, or if there wasn't a massive culminating conflict (e.g.. the confusing fight that left the Commander dead, and blood on people's hands) for which the borgings offered some conclusion, I would be making a very different argument.  I am confident that there are potentially other examples that make the case intended for this one, but such a case this particular example does not make in my opinion. Additionally, the charge was ultimately mutiny, an intolerable offence to the SCC, for which there is only a final punishment: maroon'em or borg'em. 

A person might choose one or the other for a multitude of reasons, ICly and OOCly. It doesn't make sense to me to demand that one choose one or the other, as cases are always going to be situational, and the greater good of RP whom it stands to benefit is also going to be situational. 

 

As a couple of final notes:

- I would like to note again, I'm personally arguing that borging should be used as a last resort, akin to marooning, depending on that particular Command's favored style of execution-adjacent punishment.

- It would be nice if we took the kind of care we expect to see from our antagonists and helped them build the story, since this is ultimately a collaborative storytelling game. 

Being near the end of round should have zero bearing on anything. Do we relax our standards for the Antag when the rounds close to an end? Is it suddenly  Ok for me as an antag to just start murdering people with less RP? If I'm a traitor can I just.. lob a nade into a lobby? or just start capturing and killing cuffed people with a minute or two of roleplay? No? Than why is the crew who has a higher standard of play, why is command who has the highest standard of play, suddenly given the excuse to kill and remove players from the round with a lower barrier of entry because "Well the rounds almost over". The Crew is not entitled to "Win". The antag is not bound to loose to them, to sacrifice their fun, and their RP as a player, just so the crew can get their greentext.

 

You got like, a few minutes of RP and was it really good RP if in your own words when you questioned it the answer from command was essentially "shut up". thats not good RP, thats just "Well I have to by the OOC rules follow commands and they told me we're killing this guy so my options are mutiny as a non antag or do it". Would you have gotten better RP if he had been brigged, investigated fully, and you got to interact with them until the end of round as he tries to clear his name? Or was the few minutes of RP with them in cuffs before they got killed better? Do you think the player who went from accusation to dead within a 10 minute period, who also yes you're right was innocent, had a good time? Do you think they felt they got good RP getting railroaded to the machinist shop, not getting an investigation, interogation, or even processed? I was in that round, I was an officer who was present when the HoS died and I told the Captain the person who was borged wasn't a party to it. And the player got killed anyway. This isn't a player complaint because as the current rules and policy stand. the Captain was allowed and in their right to make that decision, thus the suggestion I've made to change that.

 

it doesn't matter what the SCC or any other IC entity thinks or cares. It's a game and we're discussing the dynamics of it OOC'ly. Borging as it is, as it is used, is bad for the game full stop is my opinion. We should have marooning as the last resort. As marooning gives you something, and you if you die, its not dying while already black screened and cuffed to an operating table. which isn't fun. And again on the charges. Attempted murder can carry a sentence of borging. The vast majority of antag gimmicks can be construed to be attempted murder. So suddenly our "action of last resort" can be applied nearly every round.

 

We took away bombs from the antags because we felt it wasn't conductive to roleplay, we took away rubber 45's from security, we took away mesons from engineering. Things have been taken away that where long standing in the past because they didn't contribute, or where determined to be harming roleplay. I think as it stands and is being used Borging is incompatible with building a good story. especially as we now have marooning