Dionae, the Fungi Refactoring

[Caelphon]

The Dionae Team is considering the moving away from certain themes present in Dionae to a more different, unique approach. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gbDGbwCrgTnSEKd0tQqGdbpU_Z00GsrYp5jtfxGwXM0/edit

Please give feedback below!

 

[KingOfThePing]

What are you trying to achieve with this? This all reads like either 

a) change for change's sake
b) "Other servers do it like us, too, we should change that."

No proposed change in the document couldnt be achieved by incorporating it into Dionae as they are now. The argument "a more unique approach" I don't share - going back to nutrients, for example, as sustenance instead of radiation and light is less unique than it is now. The rest of the suggestions are more a re-flavour than much else, unless there is more you dont outline in the document.

[niennab]

I really like this idea and I think that Diona only stand to benefit by this reclassification.

Fungis incredible ability to grow and thrive in barren conditions goes hand-in-hand with a space faring setting more than any other. Mushrooms in science fiction (plus apocalyptic fiction) often act both as a metaphor for triumph in harsh conditions and as a literal food source. The two are made for each other. Look no further than Citizen Sleeper, Metro 2033 (the novel), and even in non-fiction research with Matsutake at the End of the World (to name a few). That aside, while treants have their place in fiction, they really do feel fantasy over sci-fi.

I don't have any direct feedback, but I do recommend the above pieces of media if you're looking for direction or inspiration. Ultimately, I hope the change goes through and I am excited to see how it'll manifest in the lore.

[ArtofWASD]

As a long time whitelistee, from a time where seeing one of out species was few and far apart (it still kinda is) I have personally spent a lot of in game time explaining dionae biology to crewmates. I would find a retcon of their biology/lore a little disruptive. Perhaps instead add new kinds of dionae who are symbiotic with fungi? 

As an added note. Boggle mentions disliking the dionae being likened to treents. But at the same time, we speak slow, and have to manually develope 1-2 emotions over the course of what could potentially be lifetimes for other species. I was under the impression that cold and unfeeling was the idea. With the wiggle room lore wise to allow actual emotional development. 

[wowzewow]

Changing to being fungi-based is a really drastic and fundamental change to the well-established identity of Dionae. Being plant-based symbiotes with fungi would achieve similar results proposed in the document, while still preserving their plant based origins. A more fungi-focused version of Dionae would work better additively as a sub-species, rather than a complete replacement.

Edited November 12, 2023 by wowzewow

[Caelphon]

2 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

What are you trying to achieve with this? This all reads like either 

a) change for change's sake
b) "Other servers do it like us, too, we should change that."

No proposed change in the document couldnt be achieved by incorporating it into Dionae as they are now. The argument "a more unique approach" I don't share - going back to nutrients, for example, as sustenance instead of radiation and light is less unique than it is now. The rest of the suggestions are more a re-flavour than much else, unless there is more you dont outline in the document.

Before we plan to actually merge the content, we will likely share it with the playerbase. This refactor is primarily to shift away from the current themes which are neither interesting to players nor wish to be explored by the Lore Team. The change is primarily to give the species a new edge, as opposed to attempting to recover what is. There’s more to fix about the species than one would think, but I do believe the change would be one that could ultimately assist in the species getting a better rep and functioning better as an alien species in Aurora without borrowing elements from other servers!

[Caelphon]

1 hour ago, niennab said:

I really like this idea and I think that Diona only stand to benefit by this reclassification.

Fungis incredible ability to grow and thrive in barren conditions goes hand-in-hand with a space faring setting more than any other. Mushrooms in science fiction (plus apocalyptic fiction) often act both as a metaphor for triumph in harsh conditions and as a literal food source. The two are made for each other. Look no further than Citizen Sleeper, Metro 2033 (the novel), and even in non-fiction research with Matsutake at the End of the World (to name a few). That aside, while treants have their place in fiction, they really do feel fantasy over sci-fi.

I don't have any direct feedback, but I do recommend the above pieces of media if you're looking for direction or inspiration. Ultimately, I hope the change goes through and I am excited to see how it'll manifest in the lore.

I am genuinely interested in pursuing with the point you’ve stated. Fungi have limitless potential, and their ability to survive the worst conditions and yet still thrive is why I believe Dionae already sort of fit into Fungi, much better than they have with merely plant-based inspiration. 

[Caelphon]

1 hour ago, ArtofWASD said:

As a long time whitelistee, from a time where seeing one of out species was few and far apart (it still kinda is) I have personally spent a lot of in game time explaining dionae biology to crewmates. I would find a retcon of their biology/lore a little disruptive. Perhaps instead add new kinds of dionae who are symbiotic with fungi? 

As an added note. Boggle mentions disliking the dionae being likened to treents. But at the same time, we speak slow, and have to manually develope 1-2 emotions over the course of what could potentially be lifetimes for other species. I was under the impression that cold and unfeeling was the idea. With the wiggle room lore wise to allow actual emotional development. 

 

1 hour ago, wowzewow said:

Changing to being fungi-based is a really drastic and fundamental change to the well-established identity of Dionae. Being plant-based symbiotes with fungi would achieve similar results proposed in the document, while still preserving their plant based origins. A more fungi-focused version of Dionae would work better additively as a sub-species, rather than a complete replacement.

Having been Loremaster, I understand the behind the scenes regarding the addition of a new sub-species. It is difficult, it is long, and ultimately by the time it gets added most of the hype around it dies down. 
 

The Dionae Team believes changing the fundamental existence of Dionae is a necessity at this point, to diverge from whatever preconceptions exist in someone’s mind, which ultimately hamper player interest, and general willingness to create lore which has already been explored in a hundred different ways in a hundred different settings. Fungi are rare, at least to me, and exploring a space-faring species with adopted fungal themes I think would only be a net positive for the species.

[kermit]

It's said in the doc that fungi do note rely on photosynthesis/light; the new fungus dionaea will instead rely on radiation and the absorption of nutrients. They shift from a species born of light. Will this not require a fair degree of change to the Eternal and similar Dionae beliefs, where Dionaea are seen as celestial entities, with the Eternal propping up the existence of a primordial entity that exists within light? dionaea being born of light and guardians of celestial bodies does not seem compatible with fungi, which typically represent darkness and decay – not to say that all fungi are light-avoidant.

The document mentions cultural changes as a footnote, with everything else being largely biological. The cultural changes to me are more important than the biological side of things, so it's hard to support a change from plant-based to fungi-based right now. Are there any cultural changes the lore team already have in-mind that they're free to mention?

Drawing on what Ping said, many of the proposed ideas are not unique to fungus and can be done just as well with plants. For example, mycorrhizal networks are not something fungi do independently and relies on plants, which ties into what Wezzy said above about a fungus-plant symbiotic relationship. Spur-wide mycelium/mycorrhizal networks which traverse a void also don't seem like much of an improvement on what we already have, which is a high-frequency song that only dionaea hear – unless I've conflated headcanon for realcanon. The high-frequency song explanation at least fit the dionaea theme of music and song.

Given I don't like dionaea being plant-based, fungus dionaea are automatically a step in the right direction for me. I do think fungus dionaea will run into their own limitations though and I think it's a shame that, despite being one of the more alien organisms in our lore, we're still boxing them into the well-known, terrestrial plant, animal or fungus kingdoms. Why not go for a more alien, amoeba/mold-like protist, where there are no biological rules or thematic constraints? Protists can create mycellium-like structures; protists can be aggregate organisms which share knowledge when joining; protists, being the catch-all, can be whatever the dionae lore team wants. It seems like the lore team is escaping from one set of constraints from having a plant-based organism, only to jump to fungi which offer another set of constraints and themes – could a lore team down the line, wanting another set of themes, make another jump to another type of life? Dionaea, being the only truly spaceborne species with no known terrestrial origin, could/should be separate from the plant, animal and fungus kingdoms, in my opinion. Turning this into a question, was the idea of making dionae more alien, protists considered; was there any pull to fungal life over protist life that I'm missing?

[wowzewow]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

Quote

I like the idea of protists, actually. It helps to tie into the "life-seeding, last common ancestor" vibe that Diona have going on. It also helps that protists are more general - rather than trading a plant pidgeonhole for a fungus one.

This can help to expand the baseline Diona and allow them to really pick and choose what to get from both plant and fungal life.

Hell, some can even specialize towards one path or another, which ties into the Diona growth theme where they slowly find themselves and their place in the universe. Some can specialize depending on their origin, too. Perhaps they have the ability to graft foreign lifeforms to themselves, in order to replicate it. Like a Skrellian Diona, who is adapted to aquatic flora, has blue blood and synthesizes Dyn.

Again, this really opens the floodgates for new Dionae subspecies, if the team chooses to do so - one can choose to specialize towards plants or fungi, a bit of both, or something new entirely.

This will also hopefully prevent retconning past lore, just with a few minor adjustments.

Edited November 12, 2023 by wowzewow

[Caelphon]

On 12/11/2023 at 21:25, kermit said:

The document mentions cultural changes as a footnote, with everything else being largely biological. The cultural changes to me are more important than the biological side of things, so it's hard to support a change from plant-based to fungi-based right now. Are there any cultural changes the lore team already have in-mind that they're free to mention?

Currently, a lot of cultural lore is said to stem from the biological elements of Dionae, due to the fact there’s no “unified” culture for the species. However, I will speak to the Team and see what we can reveal!

 

On 12/11/2023 at 21:25, kermit said:

Why not go for a more alien, amoeba/mold-like protist, where there are no biological rules or thematic constraints? Protists can create mycellium-like structures; protists can be aggregate organisms which share knowledge when joining; protists, being the catch-all, can be whatever the dionae lore team wants. It seems like the lore team is escaping from one set of constraints from having a plant-based organism, only to jump to fungi which offer another set of constraints and themes – could a lore team down the line, wanting another set of themes, make another jump to another type of life? Dionaea, being the only truly spaceborne species with no known terrestrial origin, could/should be separate from the plant, animal and fungus kingdoms, in my opinion. Turning this into a question, was the idea of making dionae more alien, protists considered; was there any pull to fungal life over protist life that I'm missing?

This is sorta the plan, with the Fungi being really the foundation, if that makes sense? They’re not going to be like Fungi we see on Earth, they’re going to have their own alien tendencies and characteristics.

[Carver]

I do rather like the idea of a wholesale shift to being fungi, as a non-whitelistee it can be hard to justify a character’s dislike of dionae because they just don’t especially hit a lot of ‘horror notes’ that one would assume a species with such terrifying traits like memory theft and blood consumption to bear. A shift to fungi does a lot for this, because people go from a mental idea of ‘cutesy wood roaches and ents’ to ‘resident evil 7’ and other creepier forms of media that fungi are more typically utilized in. Overall, this is a fantastic proposal and I have only good things to say about the implementation as proposed in the document.

[Caelphon]

The Rework is now live: 

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Dionae_Biology

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Dionae