Add sensors back to non-job clothing.

[DatSamTho]

A recent PR overhauling the sensors changed it so that sensors are now only available on work uniforms.

I really don't like this, it feels like I am being punished for wanting my character to look different, for no real reason. It makes the wearing of most items from the uniform section a direct debuff if you're playing anyone but off-duty/passenger.

What are y'all's thoughts on it?

[greenjoe]

agreed, this being merged without a feedback thread is not good, should be changed back.
either that or generalcamo said of a system nebula has, which makes suit sensors into an item that can be attached to any clothing.

[Silvore]

I used to be a heavy antag main, not so much anymore, but even then I feel like this change is a bit not good. The removal of sensors on non-work uniforms is just bad and should be reverted, and the no sensors on green alert one is, I feel, done poorly. I looked back and found that as an antag, I only had issues with sensors once, and that is because I just messed up personally. I feel like this less helps antags do better, and more harms normal crew.

[Star Dust]

The change is not good, it hurts people both in antag play and non-antag play. Nothing is less fun then dying due to a vented area, and you have no way to inform anyone that you're dying. That is not fun, this hurts EVERYONE. It also makes antags way more lazy, when they have already ALL the tools needed to already deal with suit sensors. All this does is give them another crutch and encourage them to be lazy. I played a traitor antag once, and all I needed a silenced pistol. Didn't even need the jammer, or anything. I still encouraged roleplay, engaged with the crew, and made an interesting story. I fired not a single shot, I deployed not a SINGLE antag item, I simply used the pistol as a means of leverage, and you know what? IT WORKED.  All this does is encourage antags to play more aggressively which IS NOT THE POINT OF ANTAGS. Antags need not be violent, but as antagonists, and no where does it say an antagonists has to do things violently, or aggressively. They simply need to subvert the protagonist, which is the crew. I'm so tired of antags thinking they need to take over the ship, or impose some new order to be their win condition, it's their fault for trying to take on a giant task, and not being able to do it.


Antags winning is sometimes fun, but normally it's not for most of the crew.

When I play antag, I hold this saying in my heart "Losing is fun." a dwarf fortress classic, but the reason why it is said, is because you made a possibly interesting story, despite losing. But if I win as an antag I do not want to be babied into my victory, I want to EARN IT!

Edited December 6, 2023 by Star Dust

[SatinsPristOTD]

Removing them from non-uniforms does feel like it punishes creativity, more than it helps antags. It's a major debuff, and makes half the load-out unable to be tracked on suit sensors. 

And let's not just pigeon hole suit sensors into antags. They're important for many "minor" station events, like gremorians, vents blasting out acid, and even people accidentally falling down the elevator shaft. 
 

Also, Antags can use suit sensors to find specific people. It's not difficult to get your hands on a sensor monitor and see "Ah, Mike, my target, is in the warehouse."

I'm just not sure removing them from non-uniforms is a goood idea. 

[MattAtlas]

7 minutes ago, Star Dust said:

The change is not good, it hurts people both in antag play and non-antag play. Nothing is less fun then dying due to a vented area, and you have no way to inform anyone that you're dying. That is not fun, this hurts EVERYONE. It also makes antags way more lazy, when they have already ALL the tools needed to already deal with suit sensors. All this does is give them another crutch and encourage them to be lazy. I played a traitor antag once, and all I needed a silenced pistol. Didn't even need the jammer, or anything. I still encouraged roleplay, engaged with the crew, and made an interesting story. I fired not a single shot, I deployed not a SINGLE antag item, I simply used the pistol as a means of leverage, and you know what? IT WORKED.  All this does is encourage antags to play more aggressively which IS NOT THE POINT OF ANTAGS. Antags need not be violent, but as antagonists, and no where does it say an antagonists has to do things violently, or aggressively. They simply need to subvert the protagonist, which is the crew. I'm so tired of antags thinking they need to take over the ship, or impose some new order to be their win condition, it's their fault for trying to take on a giant task, and not being able to do it.


Antags winning is sometimes fun, but normally it's not for most of the crew.

When I play antag, I hold this saying in my heart "Losing is fun." a dwarf fortress classic, but the reason why it is said, is because you made a possibly interesting story, despite losing. But if I win as an antag I do not want to be babied into my victory, I want to EARN IT!

While I understand the point of what you're saying, the all caps in certain parts is pretty unnecessary and only makes what you're saying come off as either passive aggressive, or more noise than argument.

That said, I do agree that removing them from non-work uniforms is kind of bad in hindsight. I wouldn't be opposed to them being readded.

[Star Dust]

6 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

While I understand the point of what you're saying, the all caps in certain parts is pretty unnecessary and only makes what you're saying come off as either passive aggressive, or more noise than argument.

That said, I do agree that removing them from non-work uniforms is kind of bad in hindsight. I wouldn't be opposed to them being readded.

I can understand, and its not meant to come off aggressive, more so to highlight something that needs to be seen, and understood. It's simply just how I write. But I can see how some may take it another way. I'll try to be more aware of such in the future of my writing.

[KingOfThePing]

Valid arguments are being brought up but people complain about sensors a lot. This is some change, at least. Why not try it out for a bit? Maybe it stops people being too Rambo and more sensible when it comes to engagements? Maybe it is worth trying out.

[Star Dust]

12 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

Valid arguments are being brought up but people complain about sensors a lot. This is some change, at least. Why not try it out for a bit? Maybe it stops people being too Rambo and more sensible when it comes to engagements? Maybe it is worth trying out.

Gonna have to still strongly disagree, this ruling effects non-antag rounds just as horrifically as it does antag rounds. It kills crew in situations where they would should not die in. and are not even antag related, such as being caught in a vented location, being suddenly ambushed by a bug, or one of the many different other dangers this ship has. Dying isn't fun, especially from non-antag stuff. Secondly this change will not at all for a second stop people from ramboing, because if you're ramboing, then you already don't care if you're about to get wounded, because the situation had warranted you going tits up. Also if I know someone is about to rock my shit, and medical has no idea, I'm more encouraged to rambo because its now a do or die situation and in this case, I'm going to kill the person who is trying to kill me in whatever manner I can since if I fail, I will die, or be subjected to something possibly worse.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Star Dust

[DatSamTho]

32 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

Valid arguments are being brought up but people complain about sensors a lot. This is some change, at least. Why not try it out for a bit? Maybe it stops people being too Rambo and more sensible when it comes to engagements? Maybe it is worth trying out.

This isn't arguing about the whole PR- I have no issue with the rest, but this point is moot, since people can just put on their job uniform if they want to "Rambo" without the debuff of not having sensors at all.

Edited December 7, 2023 by DatSamTho

[Gem]

definitely in support of this. i brought this up in the PR, but never got a response.

 

2 hours ago, greenjoe said:

[...] this being merged without a feedback thread is not good [...]

there technically was a feedback thread, but it wasn't really posted anywhere. link for reference.

[La Villa Strangiato]

I'm big-time in support of sensors being on all pieces of clothing because some of the uniform sprites are kind of... just okay. They're not bad from a spriting standpoint, they just don't always suit everyone's character, which is why "sprite new ones" isn't really a good comeback.

For example, I have a character who wears shorts that I've flavoured to be "Sekhmet Intergalactic shorts", because wearing long pants with Zeng-Hu legs looks a little goofy;

It's similar if you want to play a consular or corporate liaison; there's a lot of clothing options that might look better on a character than their default uniform, especially when it depends on species!

This also means that Vaurca Gynes can't ever have suit sensors, because if I'm seeing the code right, none of their clothing that bears their hive or nation colours comes with suit sensors attached.

[hazelmouse]

Full support for reversing this change. I really don't like to be penalised for enjoying customising the appearances of my characters, and I don't want to be railroaded to looking a particular way just so medical doesn't shout at me for putting myself in danger by working out of uniform and without sensors.

[Duthco]

I'm content to try it out, but I would rather not sacrifice outfits that help individualize characters, therefore I would prefer an alternative be sought.

In terms of alternative solutions that only provide suit sensors to a subset of crewmembers while maintaining the ability to have them on non-job clothing,

• Would it be possible to tie suit sensors to role/job slots instead of uniform articles? From the way they function, I imagined them as something you clip onto your outfit as part of clocking in. 
• Alternatively, would it be feasible that it be an accessory device with its own slot issued to everyone applicable and have it attached on spawn?

 

[Noble Row]

Complete support for re adding them to nonstandard uniforms from me. I believe removing them from these uniforms was an unnecessary change.

I don't mind about the rest of the PR but one of the joys I have on this server is making outfits. Most of the standard job outfits just don't look good, and telling people to "go sprite new ones" I think is just bad form and not a great way to deal with a community of people who like to put passion and flavor in to their characters.

I get this is a corporate dystopia. I get it's not realistic for every uniform to have the sensors. But it's a video game. It's a very silly video game at that.

Personally I still don't understand why modifying sensors at all is necessary. Sensors have been in the game for over a decade and antags historically have done just fine with them. Even been saved by them. If sensors were the main issue for antags then they would have been modified a decade ago.

Personally I believe this server has an unintended culture of OOCly punishing antags more than their IC nature. I know too many players who don't play antag, or don't want to try to play antag, because they're afraid of being bwoinked, or ridiculed. Hell, the term 'Antag main' is used in a derogatory sense half the time. And we antag ban so many people because we have strict quality rules for antag rp. OOCly is where the adjustments need to be made, and anything IC feels like shots in the dark or band-aids for the much much larger issue.

[Ublicto]

I am solidly in support of this change. Nerfing sensors makes it much better to play antags such as ling and will decrease the reliance on certain less fun traitor tools. It opens up a lot for antagging and is a very positive change. First responder before this was one of the most oppressive roles for a ling and having two FRs was worse in many ways than having more sec. However, I do think adding sensors back to non-work uniforms would be a positive change and I dislike tying suit sensors to alert level because this incentivizes raising the alert level whenever any crew anywhere could be in danger. Instead I think the tracking level of suit sensors should be totally removed and the highest level should be vitals which can be available at all times. The other changes I have no criticisms of because to me they are very positive, especially taking sensors off PDAs and tablets.

[greenjoe]

1 hour ago, Duthco said:

Would it be possible to tie suit sensors to role/job slots instead of uniform articles? From the way they function, I imagined them as something you clip onto your outfit as part of clocking in. 

this may be able to be done if nebula's system of them was ported, that apprantly has the sensors as a physical item, and that could be only given to some jobs

[Ublicto]

2 minutes ago, Noble Row said:

Personally I believe this server has an unintended culture of OOCly punishing antags more than their IC nature. I know too many players who don't play antag, or don't want to try to play antag, because they're afraid of being bwoinked, or ridiculed. Hell, the term 'Antag main' is used in a derogatory sense half the time. And we antag ban so many people because we have strict quality rules for antag rp. OOCly is where the adjustments need to be made, and anything IC feels like shots in the dark or band-aids for the much much larger issue.

This is another excellent point. I frequently find that antag teams tend to be a mixed bag and the number of skilled people willing to play antag regularly is limited. I feel like a formalization of existing rules which aren't clear or a change to the rules regarding the way antag players are moderated would be positive here but that's something the staff team must discuss.

[Star Dust]

Ok, already my point has been made, the code level suit sensor restriction, and only certain types of clothing have suit sensors has already caused someone to die from a random bug ambush that killed them. They died screaming, and didn't have enough time to call out their location. This did not advance the rp, this was not fun, this only kicked someone out of the round because medical, the security team, and no one else knew where he was because he was only able to call out help once before being killed. This policy should be reversed on the spot. Secondly it only made the player, medical, and me very upset because this dude died needlessly, he died and nothing was gained from it.

5 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

Valid arguments are being brought up but people complain about sensors a lot. This is some change, at least. Why not try it out for a bit? Maybe it stops people being too Rambo and more sensible when it comes to engagements? Maybe it is worth trying out.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Star Dust

[Carver]

I don’t really even get why they were removed so heavily from both green alert and non-uniforms. Antags have mechanics to suppress these things, really easily accessible ones too (all you needed was tool storage and you could craft a device that blocks sensors, no uplink needed).

[Star Dust]

Ok I have even more to say, so this new implementation came from this suggestion over a year ago.

Instead of getting the general vibe of the community before shoving this in, they waited a whole year, told no one, then out of the blue added it. This is absolutely and completely backwards thinking, and also in the suggestion about a year ago more people said "No we do not want this." and still they added it.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Star Dust

[Melariara]

Please stop spamming this post if you've already said your piece and ensure that all posts are constructive.

[Star Dust]

Just now, Melariara said:

Please stop spamming this post if you've already said your piece and ensure that all posts are constructive.

The reason why is I keep finding more stuff to talk about, and I'd say bringing up something that should be of note is constructive. Though I will admit I should have just combined the two posts into one.

[Jasorn]

while i disagree with the whole change, i can understand why it makes sense to have sensors limited to alert levels and even removing PDA/Tablet, but damn removing sensors from non-job uniforms? why? thats vast majority of players, off-duty anyone, and the DRIP? i recommend people in this thread to read the PR and comments following it see how the dev/merging process is, i don't like it as you can tell probably

 

would be nice to consult the other mass majority of the people that play on the server before silently changing this? please stop doing this

 

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/17607

Edited December 7, 2023 by Jasorn

[Nol4]

Chiming in agreement. This change effectively blocks a lot of people who you really would expect to have suit sensors from having them on account of the goofy base uniforms; I've never seen a Captain or a head of security in the base uniform, for example.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nol4