Revert Machinist Remap #18734

[Rabid Animal]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/18734

This was done in a way that was a net negative to science in so many ways it has me questioning why I even bother trying to play the role anymore. The machinist workshop did not need more space, particularly at the extreme expense of functionality in science. As is, it is extraordinarily uncomfortable to fit more than one person in chemistry and telescience, and more than two in RnD. I understand science is not a popular role, but shunting them to the corner in favor of a role whose location makes no sense beyond wanting central hallway access isn't the solution. If the machinist role really does need more space, moving it to the ample empty space on deck one would make more sense than what was done here. 

 

I'm posting this on the forums after it was merged because I don't hawkeye the github and I'm not on the discord. 

Edited April 11 by Rabid Animal

[ben10083]

The issue it was reversed for machinists. They had the corner where they had the same issues they described. HOWEVER I argue their location is VERY important, considering it is basically 'ipc medbay'. RnD Location matters far less in comparison.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

I am in the process of mapping science to be more cohesive and a bit larger.

There is no reason to revert several weeks of work. The community had a great amount of input, and there was several bits of feedback taken into consideration. 

[Carver]

5 minutes ago, ben10083 said:

The issue it was reversed for machinists. They had the corner where they had the same issues they described. HOWEVER I argue their location is VERY important, considering it is basically 'ipc medbay'. RnD Location matters far less in comparison.

Yet they really don’t need more space than they’d had. It’s not a location one might commonly loiter in, and there had been more than enough room for both repairs and production needs. Compared to Science who had effectively three sub departments within the same space; chem, telesci and regular research/production. All of which fit comfortably there, not oversized in the slightest but with just the right amount of space to allow work.

I think the workshop personally made the most sense on deck one, if only because it cemented it more as a part of Operations - where it currently exists would have only made sense if it was being shifted over wholesale to Engineering (to which, perhaps controversially, I think fits it much better).

[Rabid Animal]

2 minutes ago, ben10083 said:

The issue it was reversed for machinists. They had the corner where they had the same issues they described. HOWEVER I argue their location is VERY important, considering it is basically 'ipc medbay'. RnD Location matters far less in comparison.

The issue I have with this argument is you have one roles area being swapped with three. There's a hallway splitting chem and RnD that extenuates this issue a TON, I don't understand how something like this can slip by with no one saying anything about it. The machinist being downstairs, such as, by the stairs near medical? idk, I'd have to look in detail, solves the problem of needing it to be centralized. Even beyond that though, IPCs are able to be revived, and take damage nothing like how organics do - them being repaired is important sure, but not to the point that the machinist workshop needs to be attached to the central hall so much as easily accessible. 

 

9 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

I am in the process of mapping science to be more cohesive and a bit larger.

and I look forward to it, I don't see how this is a good example of things to come however.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

2 minutes ago, Carver said:

I think the workshop personally made the most sense on deck one, if only because it cemented it more as a part of Operations

I attempted this but could not make it work very well. 

Machinists need a lot more space than scientists do when it comes to making mechs and working on stuff. Science only needs a decent amount of space for circuits. Everything else can be done in the testing range, as intended.

The only part of RnD that I moved was the telescience lab, and it’s by the experimental range. Which fits more. It is also with Xenoarch where it’d be the most beneficial.

[Carver]

1 minute ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

I attempted this but could not make it work very well. 

Machinists need a lot more space than scientists do when it comes to making mechs and working on stuff. Science only needs a decent amount of space for circuits. Everything else can be done in the testing range, as intended.

The only part of RnD that I moved was the telescience lab, and it’s by the experimental range. Which fits more. It is also with Xenoarch where it’d be the most beneficial.

Have you tried squeezing tech storage somewhere else? I get that tech storage needs to be slightly out of the way to be more easily robbed, yet it’s in the most awkward place right now where both few people go and yet it’s directly in front of where everyone spawns so it’s not feasible to really break into it (from the door, at least) anyways. I’d imagine that it’s pretty much the main barrier since that’s where the workshop used to be.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Just now, Carver said:

Have you tried squeezing tech storage somewhere else? I get that tech storage needs to be slightly out of the way to be more easily robbed, yet it’s in the most awkward place right now where both few people go and yet it’s directly in front of where everyone spawns so it’s not feasible to really break into it (from the door, at least) anyways. I’d imagine that it’s pretty much the main barrier since that’s where the workshop used to be.

I tried a lot of different setups, this was the best one I could find for now, until I move the AI. 

[Noble Row]

We were shot down from putting the Machine Shop on deck one due to mapping rules involving maintenance tunnels. The machine shop required more space due to projects taking up a lot of floor space and the amount of traffic that went in and out of the machine shop on a round basis for events such as IPC repair (often you'll have 5+ people standing in the room for this), cyborg maintenance (A two person affair where the 1 tile hallway made it cumbersome), mech building (which requires a lot of space because you cannot walk through mechs), and the occasional cyborgification where almost every member of security likes to breathe down your neck in your closet of a machine shop.

 

Science on the other hand has one system that potentially takes up a larger amount of space and that's Circuits. The rest of it is handled in the protolathe or downstairs in the shooting range. No one has a reason to visit science either so the outside traffic is next to nonexistant. I avidly played scientist and put the input I had from playing that role in to the new science lab, which, mind you, is a placeholder while Read makes a redesign. 

[Flpfs]

I disagree because as of right now, machinists have more relevance than scientists, and so they should take a more central and larger physical position in the ship to reflect that.

 

About moving it elsewhere, it could be a good idea, but keeping it in the second deck isn't bad, as it is essentially the place where IPCs go to get fixed and is on par with other critical areas such as the brig, engineering and medical bay.

[Carver]

2 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

I tried a lot of different setups, this was the best one I could find for now, until I move the AI. 

Out of curiosity, where is the AI planned to be moved to? I would assume deck one has plenty of space (given it houses a mostly useless part of the core and the maint tunnels down there are a bit bloated in width) but I fear what might be displaced if it’s somewhere on the other two decks.

[Rabid Animal]

1 minute ago, Flpfs said:

I disagree because as of right now, machinists have more relevance than scientists, and so they should take a more central and larger physical position in the ship to reflect that.

This has never been the case in lore, and taking away QOL from departments because they aren't as popular is a poor argument for anything. If anything, science should get MORE love so people feel more incentivized to play it, I just fear its on a road to removal at the rate its going because of how little attention the department EVER receives, and how time and time again I see suggestions pop up that directly, negatively, affect science in favor of a 'popular' role.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Just now, Carver said:

Out of curiosity, where is the AI planned to be moved to? I would assume deck one has plenty of space (given it houses a mostly useless part of the core and the maint tunnels down there are a bit bloated in width) but I fear what might be displaced if it’s somewhere on the other two decks.

Externally, Deck three. Some photos have been posted in the mapper coordination. It will be separated but a small Cyborg/AI shell area will be on deck one still.

It will require an EVA walk to get to the AI core, which is possible to be done by Scientists, Engineers and command.

[Noble Row]

2 minutes ago, Rabid Animal said:

MORE love so people feel more incentivized to play it

You're going to need a full system rework for this. It's just been so neglected over the years. And with new systems, means new rooms, and new rooms means more space and such. 

 

Trust me, I love science, but it's so barebones and dated mechanics wise currently. The only real way to progress it to be more interesting is a complete mechanics overhaul.

[Carver]

7 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

Externally, Deck three. Some photos have been posted in the mapper coordination. It will be separated but a small Cyborg/AI shell area will be on deck one still.

It will require an EVA walk to get to the AI core, which is possible to be done by Scientists, Engineers and command.

Intriguing. Reminds me of the AI satellite, I’d think it’s a little excessive in the turret count but I suppose turrets aren’t what they used to be (if they’re the standard carbine turrets) so it shouldn’t be too horrible if someone wants to target the AI. The boards/intellicard do seem a little overprotected being in that far corner, but unless the addition of skills make it a pain in the ass for antags to dismantle r-walls I don’t see that being an issue.

[Rabid Animal]

4 minutes ago, Noble Row said:

You're going to need a full system rework for this

I don't think complete overhauls are the solution to every problem, as nice as they sound on paper. Science works on most other servers, it worked on bay when they were alive. I get time passes and things change and stuff needs updated, but reworking everything is a big overstep to fix a series of many, many, small problems. Would an overhaul be nice? Sure, but whose gonna do it, when theres a million other projects that need attended to. You know what can and should be done? Keeping the department playable until someone can actually tend to the issues science has.

We have suggestions for this already, but how to fix science is off topic for this thread.

[Noble Row]

2 minutes ago, Rabid Animal said:

You know what can and should be done? Keeping the department playable until someone can actually tend to the issues science has.

Then I do recommend you wait for the department redesign. No space is going to be stripped and currently science only stands to gain space with the relocation of the AI core. Hopefully with the redesign science can be a coherent department as opposed to a series of disjointed rooms.

 

The biggest issue we had when redesigning the science lab is there wasn't enough to put in it. It simply didn't need the space. Most of what scientists make can be made in their hands, and the thing that needed a bit more space was chemistry, which I believe is bigger than it used to be if not the same size. 

 

Though I do recommend being constructive, there is a science redesign on the horizon (pun sorta intended) and I'd love to hear what sort of suggestions and plans you'd like to see as a player who enjoys the science department. Nows the perfect time to suggest new and exciting plans and rooms for the department that, like you said, will stand to incentivize players to play the department more.

 

For instance, I wanted the machine shop to have a mech gantry. Does it do anything? No. But it looks cool. What sort of things would you like to see in the science lab that would add flavor and enjoyment for the playerbase?

[Rabid Animal]

I have no issues with the idea of science getting a redesign, and with the AI moving there's definitely space for it, I just don't see the need to push the machinist PR while we wait for some unknown amount of time for science to get fixed. There's been talk of remapping science for a long time now, I even attempted it at some point with Read, and if the temporary closet RnD becomes a permanent feature because other projects suddenly came up, as has been the case in the past, I'd be pretty upset, as would other science players - I suspect.

 

32 minutes ago, Noble Row said:

Though I do recommend being constructive, there is a science redesign on the horizon (pun sorta intended) and I'd love to hear what sort of suggestions and plans you'd like to see as a player who enjoys the science department. Nows the perfect time to suggest new and exciting plans and rooms for the department that, like you said, will stand to incentivize players to play the department more.

Without getting into mocking up plans, I have quite a few "wishlist" ideals for science. Not all of them will fit, but I suspect most will. I have no idea what the maintenance requirements are, but there's a huge empty space behind xenobio that could be used if things get too cramped. I'm going to include a few pictures from my first science remap attempt with the understanding its not perfect, and its not what I'm asking for 1:1 but rather a visual example of the kinds of additions I'd like to see.

For RnD:
RP space is going to be a big one, as you mentioned "does it do anything? No, but it looks cool." An area specifically for assembling machines and doing integrated circuits, as an extension to RnD would be great - along with the existing table space it has now, for organizing materials, documents and just generally sitting around and chatting with other scientists about plans and projects. I'd like to see the RnD server room actually attached to RnD for a few reasons, though primarily it makes the lab feel more coherent and as one.

On top of that; having a lobby or having RnD connected to the central hallway is important to me for the sake of bringing outsiders into science for RP reasons. I don't think isolating one of the most isolated departments is a great play particularly if we're meant to be doing RP.

For SciChem:
I have been trying to get scichem expanded upon for a while now; mechanically. I think having a series of chemicals, and a way to actually test them, exclusive to science would make the addition of the lab feel more relevant. Of course that's getting into coding and we're mostly talking about mapping: this desire can be reflected in a lab design that encourages testing, and has a room dedicated to it. Give scichem the tools and means to make fun toys, grenades, wacky chemicals, etc. Encourage players to make use of those wild recipes on the wiki that we hardly get to see.

For Xenobotany:
While I don't think Xenobotany strictly needs any additions, having a different layout would go a long way to make it feel more playable. As is, you need to run back and forth waaaay too much to efficiently do much, and the trays are often out of view from the actual lab. Also for the love of god give them a water tank idk why they don't have one currently.

Something not included here would be an area to store samples, perhaps stuff gathered from away missions and etc. 

For Xenobiology:
I think this area could use the most love. I think from a QOL standpoint, the removal of the disposal chutes wasn't great and the lack of table space is really felt. Xenobiology, however, has a ton of RP potential that is very, very, rarely tapped into because of the focus on slimes. I'd like to see it expanded upon in the form of an additional pen to hold alien fauna, and an expanded "surgical room" to encourage dissections and analysis of samples.



For Telescience:
In another thread, there was talk of expanding Tscience to allow for off ship z-levels to be accessed, and something I'd personally love to see as a result of that are Tscience specific away missions: of course this goes back into the realm of needing to code things, but mapping with this in mind could help bring tscience back to the forefront. Having a kind of "staging area" nearby the portal room would go a long way to imply that yes, we can make use of the funny little portals we make, and maybe we even should.

 

ALL IN ALL, I'd like to see all these labs fairly close together, maybe with the exception of the bio/bot labs since they're fairly large. Inner department interaction can be low, but it doesn't have to be - let the guy in RnD see what the guy in chemistry is up to, let that curiosity be fed. I don't have a ton of ideas for xenoarch, mapping wise. There's always code stuff that could tie in, but nothing that I think needs to be addressed in a wave like this.

Also fix the window tint on the RDs office plz ty 

[Jasorn]

i can accept a science rework, but a giant expansion on the least used job on the ship being adding more trays? plant more of nothing from the non-existent players?

[Nagito Komaeda]

Reworking the Machinist workshop was kind of... necessary, as was mentioned earlier. The old lab was way too cramped to fit two people actively working the job, let alone patients and spectators. Read did an excellent job remapping the Workshop in the footprint of R&D, and I can safely say it's been a win on that end.

However! I also agree with you that Science is kind of awkward now. When you original Science remap was launched, I was almost fully positive about the changes there. Xenobotany specifically, I really liked (coming from someone who likes to play Xenobotany), and I also really liked the Chemistry laboratory, despite it having very little basis to kind of, exist, nowadays. If the A.I. core gets moved definitively (which is up to Read, as she is toying around with that concept now), then Science would have a lot more space to work with - which I think is very necessary. My 'hope' is that we maybe get some form of elevator, or chute, or whatever, that makes moving from the lab to the testing location a bit more convenient. If we truly want to establish the firing range as the testing hotspot, then a remap needs to fully lean into it. A weaker point of your remap (which was touched on here) is that the original remap closed off Science a bit too much. There should be something forward-facing, around the central ring, that highlights that this is Science.

Very much looking forward to see any Science-related changes, though! Giving love to the Machinist Workshop made it amazing, I am sure the same can be achieved with Science as a whole.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

@Rabid Animal I will take all of this into consideration. 

However the only thing I probably will not implement is a larger xenobotany. I intend on remodeling it, but the area is already very large. 

[Rabid Animal]

1 hour ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

However the only thing I probably will not implement is a larger xenobotany.

It's less the size of it and more the layout, having the 'cleaning room' be in-between the lab and the trays makes working the area kind of a pain. How it was on the aurora station was actually very nice, if you need another reference for the sort of layout I'm talking about.


Someone also mentioned to me in DMs that the firing range used to be connected with security, idk if that's even feasible with the current layouts but having them side by side or - yeah - connected, would help with inter department interaction, particularly since science makes a lot of guns. I could see a lot of fun interactions being formed because of something like that. idk, something to consider.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

2 minutes ago, Rabid Animal said:

It's less the size of it and more the layout, having the 'cleaning room' be in-between the lab and the trays makes working the area kind of a pain. How it was on the aurora station was actually very nice, if you need another reference for the sort of layout I'm talking about.


Someone also mentioned to me in DMs that the firing range used to be connected with security, idk if that's even feasible with the current layouts but having them side by side or - yeah - connected, would help with inter department interaction, particularly since science makes a lot of guns. I could see a lot of fun interactions being formed because of something like that. idk, something to consider.

I am considering making xeno-biology and xeno-botany share a decontamination area, to provide more space and better layout for both. I hope to have a mock-up rough draft on the forums this evening. 

[Rabid Animal]

8 hours ago, Jasorn said:

i can accept a science rework, but a giant expansion on the least used job on the ship being adding more trays? plant more of nothing from the non-existent players?

It has four more trays if you count the dirt piles in the current map. I recall designing it with the old maps tray count. Xenobotany is not much larger here than the current map, and it might SEEM that way because three rooms were combined into one. Beyond any of that, it was established many times in this thread that arguing against something because not enough people play the role isn't a great argument, you can come up with something better than that - surely.

 

Also I specifically recall putting a disclaimer above any of those images that I didn't think the layouts were perfect, and it was meant to represent the kind of changes I wanted. 

 

7 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

I am considering making xeno-biology and xeno-botany share a decontamination area, to provide more space and better layout for both. I hope to have a mock-up rough draft on the forums this evening. 

Could work, would give them more reason to talk so I'm all for it - so long as the actual lab work isn't in this shared space for the sake of, well, actual convenience of working those roles.

Edited April 11 by Rabid Animal
forgot a line

[ReadThisNamePlz]

This is being worked on right now. I should be finished by Sunday.