Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Skull's immediately going to hate me for putting up this thread, as well as me changing my opinion and point of view on it, but I've played enough of the psuedo-role to understand what opportunities can be presented here. But, hey, lemme pitch my suggestion. Blueshields, also known as Command Staff Protection Detail. Their duty are entirely focused on the protection and preservation of the lives of command staff. They have sufficient training, responsibilities, equipment, access and et cetera in order to be fulfilling that duty. My suggestion would be to whitelist this job position or set it based on player age (14-30 days would be my recommendation), but either way, the position of a Blueshield is be held under tight and moderated scrutiny by the administration team, as it is very easy to succumb to temptation with the amount of access and power the Blueshield has. Any player can effectively ruin the round if played incorrectly. Blueshields are automatically exempt from antagonist-based roles. Exceptions apply only to in-game antag conversions. Just because you're not implanted doesn't mean you can't be bwoinked for being an anti-corporate cock. They differentiate from security in that their duty is not regulating and enforcing Corporate Regulations. Their mission and focus is protecting high value assets, high value assets being designated as Command staff in this instance. While a Blueshield can make an 'arrest' in the sense of stunning and restraining a would-be assassin attempting to harm the Blueshield's charge in any way, they're to immediately hand off the suspect to security once pacified. Blueshields are equipped with the following equipment in Code Green. Blueshield jumpsuit Beret HUDsunglasses Security Belt Blueshield Body Armor Stun Baton Flash Pepperspray canister Full stack of zipties 1 box of flashbangs .38 MATEBA; Hunter variant. (Note: This beautiful work of art the uninitated call a 'revolver' is locked in a secure lockbox along with 3 boxes of .38 LTL ammunition and .357 magnum ammunition. Only those with the blueshield ID or Captain may open it.)Item may not be openly carried in this alert level.In Code Blue, the following equipment may be distributed: Blueshield jumpsuit Beret HUDsunglasses Security Belt Blueshield Tactical Vest Blueshield Tac-helm Stun Baton Flash Pepperspray canister Full stack of zipties 1 box of flashbangs .38 MATEBA; Hunter variant.Item may not be openly held unless in danger or responding to a call regarding the threatened life of command staff.In Code Red, the issued equipment are as follows: Blueshield jumpsuit Beret HUDsunglasses Security Belt Blueshield Tactical Vest Blueshield Tac-helm Stun Baton Flash Pepperspray canister Full stack of zipties 1 box of flashbangs Riot Shield Energy Carbine .357 Ammunition .38 MATEBA; Hunter variant. (NOTE: At this stage, it is determined there is a confirmed threat onboard the station. Blueshields are allowed lethal force to pacify tangible threats to command staff security or themselves (with very explicit exceptions, such as a crew-bound traitor who is ordered to be taken alive). The signature revolver issued to Blueshields, unlike the detective revolver, may accept both less-than-lethal .38 rounds and .357 without requiring hollowing out the barrel with a screwdriver. The lockbox containing the revolver and ammunition of both variants is not to be looted and deprived of its .357 ammunition unless Code Red has been declared. Seriously, 60 brute per shot is not a joke.) Further alert levels will dictate whether or not additional equipment may be issued to blueshields/protective detail agents. Suggested access levels: If there's anything else I missed, lemme know.
Frances Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Every story I've heard regarding blueshields involved them being complete fucking tools. I might be coming in with a bias, but I'm going to need some convincing on this one. What purpose do blueshields serve, IC and OOC-wise, besides wearing sunglasses and tacgear, carrying around revolvers at all times, and looking 20% cooler than the rest of security? Because that calls very much to a specific kind of player. And this is a kind of player I believe most of us would rather not see in such a position.
keinto Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 I don't know. This could either prevent heads of staff from ramboing, or just make it worse because now they have some protection while they go antag-hunting.
TishinaStalker Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Can we not give Blueshields a Mateba? Also, what Keinto said.
Frances Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 I don't know. This could either prevent heads of staff from ramboing, or just make it worse because now they have some protection while they go antag-hunting. I haven't really seen heads of staff go rambo (besides the HoS acting like a hero to save other heads, which makes 100% sense imo as they do security duties, while interacting with command a lot. They're the closest thing to a blueshield we should have.) Isn't this a position that would incite its players (the blueshield players) to rambo? Because there's a lot less check and balance available. As a sec officer, you need to look out for the entire crew while being a small part of a larger force and trying to maintain order. Blueshields pretty much have the right (and the equipment) to go apeshit to protect command staff.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 If anything I would prefer that the are NOT called Blueshield as that name just sounds stupid to me. I haven't read the rest of your post yet Also as a note, Skull and I had a very long chat today about this subject.
jackfractal Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Why not just give sec some bright blue (purple?) arm-bands? If a head or heads request a bodyguard, security command can order one of their members to second themselves to that head and wear the arm band, thus clearly marking them as a bodyguard. I don't know why this would have to be a separate job.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 In an IC perspective, one can draw parallels with the secret service protective details. Their sole mission and goal is protection of command staff. OOCly, they basically help command staff stay alive in the round for as much as they possibly can. There's probably nothing scarier for an antag than a guy with various amounts of stun gear ready to robust your ass to the floor if you try snatching the ID off of the captain and then executing them. It makes antags have to think a bit more, especially on the positioning of the blueshield themselves. They're an added challenge for the antag to work around. Fun RP scenarios, deliberation and strategy combined. Hmmm. Maybe, maybe mateba won't really be a good idea. It's whatever, I threw it in an idea as the mechanics exist in paracode for Blueshields. The intention was that it'd merely be detective revolver 2.0 (with no real advantage besides a two-shot burst toggle mechanic) with the rare option of having 60 brute bullets if shit gets way too insane, resulting in code red and forced escalation. Note that there's a lot more responsibility attached to having a highly lethal weapon, and then having it upped to requiring even more force and good judgement to prevent bad calls. But, I digress, and suggest... Tasers, probably? Or some other ranged stun gear weapon. Also, flashbangs was a bad idea. Ends up applying the temptation Also, blueshield by name does sound inherently dumb. It's merely a nickname anyway. Protective detail is probably more immersive/in-line with actual corporate positions. If blueshields go antaghunting, they're doing their job wrong and screwing up the round. Job-ban. Aren't most of you who are posting here very adamant on not adding restrictions on jobs, yet prefer to job-ban people who screw it up intentionally? You're relying pretty heavily on griefers, chucklefucks and bad roleplayers in general to weigh in on whether this is a good idea or not. Just saying. Blueshields are supposed to be responsible. If they are not, that is a player error. You are not supposed to fuck up and completely neglect your duty as protective detail, lives are at stake. Player issue if they can't play it correctly. It's a suggestion. Feel free to make counter-suggestions to improve the QoL of it rather than just "no pls don't put it in" like always
Hycinth Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Delta, why not SMG + Ammo in an IDlocked briefcase, you know, secret service style. Would gimp them slightly, since, yano, not 60 brute per shot, but still make them effective. Issue them a Taser for ranged LTL.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 I refuse to give lethals to a role that is designed to protect. On a standard work day you're not ment to expect someone to try and kill or blow up the station. They are not officers and do not have a licence to kill.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Fair enough, I guess. Although I'm not too sure on just issuing them the standard taser (with, sadly, only six shots)/baton and that's it. I dunno, call it trying to diversify what the identity of blueshield is, or just flat out trying to give it way too much power, not sure. Would another energy pistol be fair?
jackfractal Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 The only place I've seen these guys is on Paradise, and there they're locked behind a 45 point Karma wall. That's a sizable amount of karma on Paradise. You have to play for about a month to get that much. So on that server, playing Blueshield is mostly treated as a reward. You get your own office. You're sorta part of sec, but you don't answer to them. You have a gun and armor. You get to walk around, act tough, and look cool. But you're not effective. The simple problem is, there's only one of you and as many as six people you're supposed to be protecting. Those people all work on opposite sides of the station. There is no way for you to be close enough to guard all those bodies unless you've locked them in a closet somewhere. You end up red-tiding to calls for help just like the rest of sec, because while you're guarding the Head of Personnel, a changeling is scarfing down on the Research Director, or newcops are kicking down the Captain's door. The most useful thing I've seen Blueshields do is simply to make sure that each Head of Staff has a death-alarm implant, so when they fail, at least everyone knows about it and starts looking for the bodies. I think the right way to handle the need for bodyguards is for security to assign some officers to a special detail if there's a credible threat to one of the heads of staff.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 [*].38 MATEBA; Hunter variant. (Note: This beautiful work of art the uninitated call a 'revolver' is locked in a secure lockbox along with 3 boxes of .38 LTL ammunition and .357 magnum ammunition. Only those with the blueshield ID or Captain may open it.) I am not entirely sure how all-access supercops with a lethal instagib deathsquad gun are going to help the average round. I'd argue stealth/RP antags are penalized enough as it is, with Antag hunter AIs and a full security force every round.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 I am not entirely sure how all-access supercops with a lethal instagib deathsquad gun are going to help the average round.I'd argue stealth/RP antags are penalized enough as it is, with Antag hunter AIs and a full security force every round. In the original post it's stated that they don't have full access and they are not cops/security, they won't even have the power to arrest or intervene if security are already there. I also posted that they will not be given lethals by default and a full box of flashbangs is standard ERT loadout for a lot of our ERT players apparently. Flashbangs are not a defense weapon, they are to make it easy to assault places without instantly getting gunned down. They would not be allowed to hunt antags and I would boink anyone in this position who does. However Skull in the past and probably still is convinced that this is not a job that needs to be coded in.
Skull132 Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Let me be very blunt in what this job will enable, and why Delta is interested in it. They would not be allowed to hunt antags and I would boink anyone in this position who does. It's a motherfuckering power fantasy for people who do just that. I read a reply that this will potentially deal with Heads of Staff rambo-ing. Yes, it will: because the very specific subset of heads of staff who want to rambo will be playing this job instead, to rambo. Of course, those folks can be banned from it and whitelists revoked. But. We can do some fun things with this role. If added, I would remove security officer slots on that count. I am also not too keen on giving them something like a mateba, or a SMG, but we'll see. I'll be talking to a few folks, and reading this discussion over the coming week, to see if this idea is worth implementing or not.
mrimatool Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Skull, maybe an energy gun? I actually like this idea, mostly because I've promoted so many bodyguards in the past, but I feel like I'm powergaming when I do it, having it hard coded would get rid of most of my guilt xD
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 We are going over things and talking, currently I have tested about 3-4 weapons to see which would be suitable.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Alright, I am gonna try being constructive here. Here's why I think this is going to go horribly wrong. One. People will hunt antags with this. Doesnt matter how the job works in theory, in practice this is an all-access supercop with a big lethal gun. The detective also isnt supposed to use his gun to hunt antagonists but people do it all the time (And get away with it, unpunished.) So, here's how I see all of this going - 1. Blueshields hunt down and kill all the antags 2. Complaint is made due to Blueshield hunting down and kiling all the antags. 3. Six pages of ridiculous rules lawyering and random quotation of American law follow. 4. Blueshield is given a firm wrist-slap 5. Blueshields hunt down and kill all the antags 2. Complaint is made due to Blueshield hunting down and killing all the antags... See where im going with this? I mean, I can think of no possible reason for this job to be here other than to hunt down antags with a cooler looking gun and a cooler looking uniform. Two. From a RP standpoint, this encourages the creation of fighting kung-fu badasses who win all the fights ever and have a cooler uniform and a cooler gun than you do. Like Skull pointed out, this is a power fantasy. There's tolerating the ex-US marines, there's enabling the ex-US marines, but this here is encouraging the Ex-US marines, with a job more or less crafted to make them special snowflake sec so they can look cooler while telling everyone how much syndicate operatives they elbow dive on their way to work daily. It's a Mary Sue profession which I assume, will be entirely populated with Mary Sues the moment it is added. Three. This will really tip the gameplay balance in favor of Command and Security. I mean, heads will no longer have to be careful - they can antag hunt, or waltz around the station however they feel like, and if an antagonist wants to get them, they have to pass through a ridiculously armed and armored supersec officer whose only job is to protect command. This is more or less like giving security an extra officer spot. People keep whining about powergaming, but I can not think of any possible way to get through an angry party of blueshields besides powergaming. This is just going to make things very hard for traitors. (As if security didnt win often enough already.)
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 People will hunt antags with this.Doesnt matter how the job works in theory, in practice this is an all-access supercop with a big lethal gun. The detective also isnt supposed to use his gun to hunt antagonists but people do it all the time (And get away with it, unpunished.) So, here's how I see all of this going - 1. Blueshields hunt down and kill all the antags 2. Complaint is made due to Blueshield hunting down and kiling all the antags. 3. Six pages of ridiculous rules lawyering and random quotation of American law follow. 4. Blueshield is given a firm wrist-slap 5. Blueshields hunt down and kill all the antags 2. Complaint is made due to Blueshield hunting down and killing all the antags... See where im going with this? I mean, I can think of no possible reason for this job to be here other than to hunt down antags with a cooler looking gun and a cooler looking uniform. Read what Skull and I posted, if anyone is hunting antags in this role they will be risking their whitelist and we will boink them. and read the main post again, they will NOT be getting full access, they will NOT be considered officers, they will NOT have a licence to kill. They will not run on American, English, Spanish, Romanian, Russian, or even Chinese laws. They will be made to follow their own laws that coincide with the station. Two. From a RP standpoint, this encourages the creation of fighting kung-fu badasses who win all the fights ever and have a cooler uniform and a cooler gun than you do. Like Skull pointed out, this is a power fantasy. There's tolerating the ex-US marines, there's enabling the ex-US marines, but this here is encouraging the Ex-US marines, with a job more or less crafted to make them special snowflake sec so they can look cooler while telling everyone how much syndicate operatives they elbow dive on their way to work daily. It's a Mary Sue profession which I assume, will be entirely populated with Mary Sues the moment it is added. I would like to point you in the direction of any HoS/Captain/ERT character (A character that plays all three) Honestly if your character is a member of command staff normally or does it on a regular basis then I do not see why they would assign you to a security deail that's main job is to die. Yes the main job of protection detail is to get in the line of fire and die while the heads escape. Three. This will really tip the gameplay balance in favor of Command and Security. I mean, heads will no longer have to be careful - they can antag hunt, or waltz around the station however they feel like, and if an antagonist wants to get them, they have to pass through a ridiculously armed and armored supersec officer whose only job is to protect command. This is more or less like giving security an extra officer spot. People keep whining about powergaming, but I can not think of any possible way to get through an angry party of blueshields besides powergaming. This is just going to make things very hard for traitors. (As if security didnt win often enough already.) Again I point you to what Skull and I said about antag hunting. No command staff should be antag hunting and if they are using Protection Detail as an excuse to do it then they will be boinked. 'angry party of blueshields' No the slots will be restricted to probably one, maybe two. They will NOT be armed to the teeth, they WILL be able to be taken down. This is not something that is taken lightly, we have been and are thinking about all the angles with this.
Frances Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 If added, I would remove security officer slots on that count. Are we certain about that? In my experience the brig is more often undercrowded than overcrowded. I can see it being a problem during nuke where you have 5 officers + 2 blueshields, but during 40+ people rounds, it can be very hard to keep even 2-3 officers around after the one hour mark with all five slots taken.
Skull132 Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 We'll see. We have actually discussed a few types of scaling for certain job slots, sec being one of them. So yeah.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 I would like to point you in the direction of any HoS/Captain/ERT character (A character that plays all three) Honestly if your character is a member of command staff normally or does it on a regular basis then I do not see why they would assign you to a security deail that's main job is to die. Yes the main job of protection detail is to get in the line of fire and die while the heads escape. Alright, I will put my trust in you guys to keep antag hunting in check if this goes online, but there's still two issues I'd like to talk on. The first, is the fact that like I said earlier this is a huge command/sec buff. Does command/sec really need a buff? Will traitors be given new items or something similliar to buff them due to Department heads having a personal bodyguard? The second, even if your intention for the security detail is to be a glorified meatshield, are you sure you can pull it off? I mean, the "disposable asset" part. On Paradise and Unbound Travels the blueshield is essentially a whitelisted/karma locked supercop with a fabulous large office, overpowered personal equipment and a ridiculously flamboyant uniform, because it's a sort of SUPER SPECIAL PERSON MAN role. As a result, most of their blueshield characters are absolutely awful. I generally dislike the addition of meaningless pseudo military honor jobs, It breaks my immersion to have an entire department of the station being locked behind flashing multicoloured neon airlocks which spell out OFFICIAL ELITE NANOTRASEN UCHIHA CLAN ELITE NINJA GUARD HEADQUARTERS. In simple terms, if you guys really want to implement this Im really, reeeeaaaaally asking that they're literally a bodyguard in space with a plain uniform, regular equipment and normal authority. I really dont like the idea of them running around with FABULOUS~ shining golden epaulettes, a decorative sabre, a rare cuban pete hat with the Nanotrasen logo on it and a flowy multicoloured cape which transforms into a marauder mech when the blueshield takes damage, or whatever. Can... Can we just have a normal, boring old corporate bodyguard, with his boring suitcase, boring jumpsuit and a boring taser...?
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 This is the intended model or image a Blueshield will practically have. In addition, they won't be called a blueshield, as already addressed in the main post. It's going to either be Protective Detail or whatever else. So, yes, besides a few corporate identifiers that stick out a little and say, "Hey, my beret has a Protective Detail patch on it. Please don't assault the Heads of Staff while I'm around." They're not going to be licensed to kill. So, no foldable SMGs in suitcases. No shininess, just a flat dark blue jumpsuit. Boring energy gun (the taser only variant, mind), and the position itself would only cater to very specific types of characters. I planned on making a completely new, blueshield-only character for this role itself. They'll be just as boring or otherwise just as unnoticeable. The only point in time where it's even tentatively acceptable when they can kill anybody is when the aggressor cannot be put down in any other way possible and the Protective Detail Agent has tried just about everything to keep the aggressor alive yet pacified. Are my answers satisfactory, or is there something else you want addressed?
jackfractal Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 The fact that their job is impossible? There's only one of them and up to five heads. How we dealin' with that?
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