Stun Batons Removal

[Guest Menown]

Removal of stun batons and replaced with telescoping batons for security. This'll remove the instant downing stun baton, and bring out a new way to handle people, one that if abused, will be much more easily noticeable, due to broken limbs and such.

Pros

- Clicky clicky spam

- Concealable

- Better sign of abuse/possibility for pain RP

- No need for charge

Cons

- Clicky clicky spam

- Removal of instant stun non-lethal, making flashes the optimal in non-violent close quarters detention of resisting crew members

- Concealable

- Possibility of abuse, but this can be seen as a pro for the idea of 'weeding out abusive sec officers'

[enkas]

I kind of like this thing... But like many different things, this is very likely to be abused.

Anyways, a question that I am not sure of, aren't IPCs imune to leg-slapping? Because if yes, that would give them another advantage over the non-lethals against the security

[Guest Menown]

As far as I know, they're not immune to it. They should be immune to the stun batons too, but they're not.

[mrimatool]

Hmm,. I'm unsure, I like this because like Gunsec it gives more risk to trying to subdue someone. But, I dislike how easy it will for security officers to go down if someone tries to disarm them and they don't get me down in one or two hits. Meaning security will more likely aim to knock unconscious someone who tries to disarm their baton.

[Guest Menown]

It's already easy, Tool. I've been beaten to shit because a guy disarmed me and took my stun baton. The only difference is with a stun baton, they're down for longer.

The issue is people not RPing pain. "Oh, I got cracked in the leg? Okay. Time to robust u."

[Carver]

I like the idea, less of rushing down armed folks with a cattle prod makes sense to me and it makes melee antagonists more viable. (E-swords/Cult sword/etc won't need to be supplemented w/ ranged tools as often)

Though could we keep the stun batons on the riot gear racks?

[Jamini]

Uh, telescopic batons weaken on leg hits. This suggestion turns every single attack with a baton into harmbaton spam that doesn't have a limit on charge.

Like seriously, this is a terrible idea.

 

/obj/item/weapon/melee/telebaton/attack(mob/target as mob, mob/living/user as mob/*, target_zone*/)
if(on)
	if ((CLUMSY in user.mutations) && prob(50))
		user << "\red You club yourself over the head."
		user.Weaken(3 * force)
		if(ishuman(user))
			var/mob/living/carbon/human/H = user
			H.apply_damage(2*force, BRUTE, "head")
		else
			user.take_organ_damage(2*force)
		return
	if(..())
		playsound(src.loc, "swing_hit", 50, 1, -1)
//			var/obj/item/c_hand							UNFUCK WHEN YOU HAVE TIME AND KNOWLEDGE
//			var/hand
		if(user.zone_sel.selecting == "r_leg" || user.zone_sel.selecting == "l_leg")
			target.Weaken(10) //nerfed, because yes.
/*			if(user.zone_sel.selecting == "l_hand" || user.zone_sel.selecting == "l_arm")
			c_hand = "l_hand"
			target.u_equip(c_hand)
			hand = "left hand"
			user.visible_message("\red [target] screams out in pain and drops what they were holding in their [hand]!")*/
		else
			..()
		return
else
	return ..()

 

Telebatons are limited to the HoS and Captain for a very good reason. They are very very powerful.

[Guest]

Telebatons are extremely strong and can crack bones in just two smacks. No no no, Captain and HoS only plox.

[Guest]

I'd like to refer to how paracode has their telescopic batons set up.

Rather than shattering limbs with 15 brute per swing, why not maintain their weaken mechanic while also dumbing down the damage a little (probably down to 10, simple dimple) when set on disarm intent? Help intent does nothing, of course, so you have to use harm intent if you want to kill somebody.

Thoughts?

[Johnny Mnemonic]

can we give security police batons as weaker versions of telescopic batons and reserve those for heads?

i don't think they would require much mapping, it's a pretty basic shape

[Guest]

Why not just add Telescopic batons into the armoury with the riot equipment instead of the stunbatons there?

[Jamini]

I'd like to refer to how paracode has their telescopic batons set up.

Rather than shattering limbs with 15 brute per swing, why not maintain their weaken mechanic while also dumbing down the damage a little (probably down to 10, simple dimple) when set on disarm intent? Help intent does nothing, of course, so you have to use harm intent if you want to kill somebody.

Thoughts?

 

It's still a hilariously massive buff to security weaponry.

If you want security to act/behave better, they need their weapons reduced in effectiveness. Not made stronger.

[Guest]

Nerfing stun gear = Better officers?

I'm afraid I don't understand that logic.

The reason why I'm more for telebatons is not because I can and-or-want-to crack open Mr Mcantags knees open whenever I please. It's to give security as a whole even more accountability for their escalation of force and understand that every action and reaction has their consequences.

Nerfing stun gear into oblivion rather than repurposing what currently exists is not a solid solution to anything.

It'd be like me saying the Chief Engineer shouldn't have their RCD, because they should know how to hack doors and take down walls anyway.

[Serveris]

I'm thinking that after a certain amount of damage is absorbed/neglected by armor, that the leg stuns are a no-go. I've definitely tried telelegging heavily armoured people (I want to say hardsuits, but it could have been riot gear, no shield,) and am certain I got several hits in, but nonetheless, they did not go down. Need some time to look through code later to confirm this. I've had a lot less than I thought I would lately.

[Jamini]

Nerfing stun gear = Better officers?

I'm afraid I don't understand that logic.

The reason why I'm more for telebatons is not because I can and-or-want-to crack open Mr Mcantags knees open whenever I please. It's to give security as a whole even more accountability for their escalation of force and understand that every action and reaction has their consequences.

Nerfing stun gear into oblivion rather than repurposing what currently exists is not a solid solution to anything.

It is a solution that was very solidly proven to work elsewhere on cutting down security excess. (In conjunction with to several harsh crackdown waves of security bans)

 

It'd be like me saying the Chief Engineer shouldn't have their RCD, because they should know how to hack doors and take down walls anyway.

 

Honestly the RCD is a luxury item. They really don't need the RCD at all. Go ahead and take it away, I wouldn't care.

 

I'm thinking that after a certain amount of damage is absorbed/neglected by armor, that the leg stuns are a no-go. I've definitely tried telelegging heavily armoured people (I want to say hardsuits, but it could have been riot gear, no shield,) and am certain I got several hits in, but nonetheless, they did not go down. Need some time to look through code later to confirm this. I've had a lot less than I thought I would lately.

 

Armor completely blocks attacks a % of the time. Since T-batons weaken on hit (while stun batons on attack, it's likely the attack was not blocked by their armor.

[Guest]

Banning people who prove they are not fit for the role or the responsibilities the job entails (or, rather, as a last resort for someone who has proven they cannot learn to be a better security officer), from said job, is already a viable solution. No nerfs or changes would be needed if we didn't have the common upstart officer undermining the integrity of the department and its operation. I'm actually a little disappointed this isn't exercised a little more often with the complaints we get on a biweekly basis, but I'm not going to touch on that further at risk for pissing people off.

Believe it or not, security needs stun tools in the event diplomacy does not work. And they need to have variety in their tools so that they may approach each less-than-favorable situation in a different way.

Stun batons are instant win against anyone, I would argue they are more overpowered from a stun extent than telescopic batons are. You can't throwbaton someone with a clickybaton. You can't rush into a room full of either armored vox or nuke ops and expect to, in a gameplay and also immersion perspective, be able to stun and cuff every single tango in that room with only a stun baton. But yet, you actually can. It's silly and not very conducive to the flow and nature of conflict here.

 

I'm thinking that after a certain amount of damage is absorbed/neglected by armor, that the leg stuns are a no-go. I've definitely tried telelegging heavily armoured people (I want to say hardsuits, but it could have been riot gear, no shield,) and am certain I got several hits in, but nonetheless, they did not go down. Need some time to look through code later to confirm this. I've had a lot less than I thought I would lately.

 

Also, yes, I can confirm this occurs, by prior experience in-game as well as looking at the code somewhere. I'd have to find it too, but. If a piece of outer armored clothing also covers arms/legs, then not only will the armor likely absorb the blow, but it will also negate the weakening effect. You usually get a log such as "X has been slapped in the N leg with the telescopic baton by Y!"

[Jamini]

You can't rush into a room full of either armored vox or nuke ops and expect to, in a gameplay and also immersion perspective, be able to stun and cuff every single tango in that room with only a stun baton. But yet, you actually can. It's silly and not very conducive to the flow and nature of conflict here.

 

The solution is not to make every officer possess the strongest single-handed weapon in the game, an item that can stunlock indefinitely and deals very high damage per-hit for a single-hand melee weapon.

The solution would be to make stunbatons deal 80-120 halloss, delaying their weaken and stun procs so that the target can react. (And a simens_coeffecient can take effect for armored individuals.)

Again. Bay actually has a solution that works quite well for reducing security complaints and issues. If you want to ignore a solution that works in favor of one that will not. Be my guest. I'm certain the complaints once it happens will be very interesting to read.

[Guest]

The solution is not to make every officer possess the strongest single-handed weapon in the game, an item that can stunlock indefinitely and deals very high damage per-hit.

 

Then you're exploiting existing game mechanics in an effort to win. Hello, Heavy Roleplay server, it's right there in the title. Also in our rules, states you shouldn't be doing anything that's playing to win. Realistic scenarios in which where one has the power manages to overwhelm the one that is lacking it, notwithstanding to this point.

 

The solution would be to make stunbatons deal 80-120 halloss, delaying their weaken and stun procs so that the target can react. (And a simens_coeffecient can take effect for armored individuals.)

 

why. This is so utterly pointless it defeats the purpose of a melee weapon having that much power. Point being: Melee weapons don't have range, and therefore they should have an advantage in CQC. The counter to telebatons? Don't fucking get close. Keep your goddamn distance and you get to keep your knees. Your knees will then thank you, but I digress. What you just suggested just made stun batons ParaCodeslashBaystation-god-awful and it makes detaining people utterly tedious unless you spam stuns on them whilst you're cuffing them. It's a taser for melee, like, wat. It's useless now. Officers would be better off relying on their disarm intent and then stripping people of headgear to permaflashstunlock, it'd be far more efficient.

 

Again. Bay actually has a solution that works quite well for reducing security complaints and issues. If you want to ignore a solution that works in favor of one that will not. Be my guest. I'm certain the complaints once it happens will be very interesting to read.

 

Actually, let me emphasize this.

We are not Baystation.

[Jamini]

Then you're exploiting existing game mechanics in an effort to win. Hello, Heavy Roleplay server, it's right there in the title. Also in our rules, states you shouldn't be doing anything that's playing to win. Realistic scenarios in which where one has the power manages to overwhelm the one that is lacking it, notwithstanding to this point.

 

The same could be said about rushing into a room full of antags and downing them all with a stun baton Delta.

 

why. This is so utterly pointless it defeats the purpose of a melee weapon having that much power. Point being: Melee weapons don't have range, and therefore they should have an advantage in CQC. The counter to telebatons? Don't fucking get close. Keep your goddamn distance and you get to keep your knees. Your knees will then thank you, but I digress. What you just suggested just made stun batons ParaCodeslashBaystation-god-awful and it makes detaining people utterly tedious unless you spam stuns on them whilst you're cuffing them. It's a taser for melee, like, wat. It's useless now. Officers would be better off relying on their disarm intent and then stripping people of headgear to permaflashstunlock, it'd be far more efficient.

 

They made detaining people difficult. It worked very well at curbing unneccesary detainment and poor security play. Mind, a 120hallos baton still downs in one hit. It simply takes a second or two where the recipient can react.

 

We are not Baystation.

No, we aren't baystation. I'm simply stating they have done something that worked. They did indeed cut down severely on poor security play, which is the intent of this suggestion.

There is no shame in learning from the lessons others learned, or using things that work on other servers. There is no need to be violently opposed to a solution that works, and works well, for other servers.

Just because you are not Baystation, does not mean we can't learn from their successes and failures.

 

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

[Alberyk]

I like how baystation deals with their stun batons, but, what about ipcs?

It is sad to see officers trying to stun one using flashes and tasers, when the stun baton is the only viable option. It would be only left lethals options to deal with them, like lasers and ion rifles.

[Jamini]

After chatting a bit with delta over skype, why not try this with batons?

 

Help Intent (Gentle poke)
-No stuns at all. It's help intent.
Grab intent (take hostage)
-Strikes with disarm settings if the target moves. Two instant hits.
Disarm intent (takedown)
-weaken(1)
-stun(1)
-Hallos 120
Harm Intent (brutalize)
-Force 10 hit
-Halloss 60

 

Disarm is used to get someone on the ground, but they'll be up and fighting fast

Grab is best for cuffing, and punishes them if they move.

Harm deals most damage, but is least effective for takedowns.

Help intent is used for ERP

All Halloss and stuns require charge.

[Guest]

As discussed already with Jamini, a urist coder as well as Serveris, the issue with that is that the Siemen's coefficient needs to be functional for that to be balanced.

[Susan]

Halloloss batons are shit, Baystation anti-sec antag-loving rhetoric is shit, please stop bleeding it over here.

Stun batons are fine and they are not the only item in their class. Traitors have their own stun batons, you have your magically invisible stun-baton gloves and your parapens that magic through even the thickest armor you have on to sedate you and knock you out immediately. Parasting, vampires with stun batons for eyes and a mouth, cult with their stun baton papers.

So I fail to see the logic in removing security's stun baton when practically every other antagonist except Vox has access to the exact same kind of weapon. And even Vox still have leap, which is a ranged stun baton.

[Eliot Clef]

I am pretty much in agreement with Susan here, and to add to this, I want to note that using a Stun Baton against a skilled opponent is VERY risky business. I've seen less-than-skilled sec members get completely dominated by an Unathi who broke their cuffs and went into melee with them and got the baton away.

Yes, you can decisively end the conflict very quickly, but you can also get overpowered and have the conflict ended on your end too. It's happened to me, albeit not in a while. More importantly, I'm going to lay down a really harsh truth here real quick:

Security's player quality has taken a real dive in the last week or so. If this code solution is meant to solve that problem, Iiiii don't think it's going to. Telebatons are very, very good weapons but one of the things about them is the fact that they're ruinously damaging if you use them that way.

I want you to imagine every questionable security player we've had recently, armed not with stun equipment but with a very lethal brute weapon as their decisive "get shit done in melee" tool.

In all, I really don't want us to be Baystation with our security equipment, and given my experiences in Security recently, I really don't want highly lethal tools to be passed out to encourage some weird idea of greater restraint.

[Blue]

Okay, I don't usually post but some people want me to post. Okay people. I'm posting. Don't know if my opinion will do anything but here it goes.

The stun baton is pretty iconic with sec. Being one-hit stun, it can end any criminal scum easy. When I started playing sec, it was the classic "everything in your belt fucks up the antag's day". Meaning, everything was an insta-stun. Flashes, baton, spray, taser, everything took down your target in one hit. Didn't leave much room to combat. But I loved it. I was powerful. Then, taser nerf happens. Tasers take two hits to stun someone now. Two successive hits. Now you gotta aim. At first I was upset because I wasn't the super antag-destroying security guardian I was before. But hey. I adjusted. And I got a little bit more robust, too. I've had antags actually escape me this time because I failed to shoot them. I've also been at the receiving end of the taser, and I felt a little better when I could get hit, and not wind up bucklecuffed to a bed in godknowswhere. Now there was wiggle room for a firefight. And I liked it. Now the taser wasn't more effective than a lethal gun. I loved it.

But Blue, that's about tasers! This is about batons! I know that. I also played sec when the baton was nerfed the way Bay had it, so that it took multiple hits. Now, it wasn't an end-all, your round is over go rot in the brig you filthy greyshirt tool for the security players. Now, you had to look out, or else you'd get disarmed and then promptly detained yourself. Also, the flash is also the only true insta-stun weapon after this (maybe pepperspray. I haven't been in that many situations where I needed it). Now, officers that jump to the baton when a flash will do are literally putting themselves at an inconvenience and at risk of being robusted. I like it.

I'm also going to point out that what Jamani suggested also sounds like a great idea. The concept of having intents factor in to batons would make it more interesting.

Someone pointed out that other antagonists have stun tools too. Well, they're supposed to be antagonizing. If they weren't even slightly more powerful and effective than sec's stunning tools, there would never be a reason for security to up to the big guns. Plus, most of what antags can use to stun you is either a magic incantation, a talisman infused directly with the essence of a blood goddess, or a biological toxin administered through a stinger. I think these all deserve to be better than a glowing stick, No?

edit: completely forgot IPCs. I'm fairly positive a coder could work a way for IPCs to get affected by batons and tasers. Also, the fact that flashes don't work on them is ridiculous.