josh1133 Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) You know what really did help though? Have a lawyer, because once I gave him all my evidence I had some great role play with them and the DO's agreed that Winston was in the right to do what he did. The Lawyers would be great, in fact, imagine them having to defend the Nuke Ops, the Changeling, or the traitors from the entire station because its their job too. A trial with the entire station against these people and the lawyer the only one trying to help them, if that doesn't create interesting Roleplay, I don't know what will. But I guess it would depend on if the crew got involved and Security allowed them to defend instead of just brushing them off. Edited June 16, 2015 by Guest
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 If this thread derailment does not end I will ask that this suggestion is vigorously pruned. Take it to another thread; it's expanding the scope of this suggestion far beyond what is intended.
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 Topic pruned anyway. Do not attack other players or their characters in suggestion threads, it causes derailment and off topic posts that provide nothing to the topic at hand. There are other places to do that.
Jakers457 Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 Security needs a slap and get reminded that the Captain is the highest authority on the station. And they also need to understand the IA have oversight on their performance. We don't need a lawyer, we just need to hammer that idea into some of the thicker skulls in Security
Johnny Mnemonic Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Something just hit me. Why not have both? Why don't we add lawyers(as a test run) /and/ we outline exactly what IAA's limitations and involvments are?
Skull132 Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 About the IAA involvement, I'm currently managing this with a new directive that's being drafted. Hopefully ready for presentation at the end of this week. Should give them clear power over investigations.
Guest Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 About the IAA involvement, I'm currently managing this with a new directive that's being drafted. Hopefully ready for presentation at the end of this week. Should give them clear power over investigations. I want this. This was supposed to happen ages ago, and yet, the IAA role is still unrespected, neglected and vilified by Security.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Bump. IAA's are still neutered and I still want someone who's entire job is to look out for me when I'm in the brig. Four times this week I've been held without charge in interrogation or processing. Three of those times, security immediately descended into civil war as a coincidence and my arresting officer was stunbaton'd or otherwise dragged out, and I was left inside because everyone just assumed that I was in there for a reason. 20 minutes I called for help, but nobody came. I could make an incident report after the entire round but I'd rather I'm released sooner so I can, you know, play in the round. Having a lawyer who's supposed to care and not stop badgering security (or release me if security is completely unresponsive and has no charge) might make these incidents less common. And harmbatonning a lawyer for pestering you about his client being held without charge for 20 minutes is enough to get DO's on your ass. Or a jobban.
Nikov Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Playing as a detective I made a point to talk and chat with the IAA on duty because I had presumed Internal Affairs had some bearing on my job. Say, I gathered my evidence of a crime and presented it to IAA, or argue my case for a conviction against the IAA before the Captain's desk. Obviously this was a waste of time, I should have been out trolling people into insulting/assaulting an officer and then brigging them to the absolute maximum of Nanotrasen regulations on every conceivable charge. Since there's literally no oversight except internal quarreling among officers, and this gets solved by a quick bloody mutiny in favor of Hoss Hardass, why bother with due process at all? I am absolutely all for 'lawyers'. I've been on a server with a Magistrate and lawyers, and it went well in my opinion. I even made a point to play Magistrate, establish a court procedure and demand physical evidence be laid before the court, fingerprinted and in an evidence bag, before I'd accept "he had an emag hes a tator". The detective played prosecutor while the lawyer rendered a defense. It was good roleplay for four people, and falsely accused or not, a half-hour arguing a murder trial beats getting stuffed in the solitary confinement cell and logging off. If we follow this pattern, with detectives/investigators presenting evidence and witnesses against the Internal Affairs evidence and witnesses, arguing a case before a non-Security authority (not the HOS but the Captain or HoP), we can develop some due process. As it stands there is no process but "surrender to get a shorter sentence if your arresting and unsupervised officer isn't a complete jackass". I've actually been brought in and brigged for a crime because the AI said "Arrest Hayden for vandalism". No evidence. No organic witness. No officer decision making. No oversight or questioning the god-machine's judgement. Just goose-marched into the brig. I've also been stuffed in the insane ward, without comms, and only avoided being straight-jacketed and muzzled by harm-stabbing the guard with sleep toxin. I had to beg and plead and scream for twenty minutes to get an IAA to show up, and then she wasn't sure she could do anything. Even as I'm covered in blood from my beating. Golly, it looks like security dropped the ball but I'm not sure I can pick it up... Something definately needs to be done. I'd like IAAs and Captains empowered more than a new job.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 I'm iffy about going on full magistrate. Those are time consuming. I've always liked tribunals, where Command is presented evidence and votes on the verdict of death, permabrig, or borgification, or even release if the evidence is crap. It's reserved for the big crimes. Yes, you are right in that the only oversight in sec is other officers, hence the frequent civil wars. I've seen Captains detained because half of security disagrees with a call he makes. In an ideal situation, the lawyers badgering keeps the arresting officer as the one with the burden of proof. They're the one who's entire job revolves around getting that officer shitcanned or brigged for false charges (which I'm going to talk about getting solidified in our regulations, since we've ported them over from baystation finally) With someone constantly asking about evidence, keeping an eye on the health of his client, and otherwise hovering around sec like a gnat, there would be more safety from abusive sec by virtue of it being blown wide open whenever they try it. And if the Warden goes along with bad charges, then the HoS goes along with it, then the captain goes along with it (or anyone of these people orders the lawyer to stfu) they can send a fax to CC and bring down the hellfire. A lot of our problems rest on the one, underlining foundation of security operation: You are guilty until proven innocent. This is the assumption that is made of you by everyone in the brig, once you are in cuffs. There is no one on your side that has any power to get you out right now. I don't want to spend the rest of the round complaining in the brig or the processing room, then making an incident report later. I want this problem settled quickly, in this round, and the incident report just reinforces the punishment.
LetzShake Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 I just think the Duty Officers need to go to bat for IAA. IAA, last I checked anyway, is supposed to be the direct influence of CentCom on the station. Technically they outrank everyone. I mean not really, but sort of. People shouldn't be able to say "fuck off, IAA". So I don't think the lawyers are necessary. I just think we need IAAs to feel like they have weight. And since this would mean someone (Duty Officers, presumably?) would be reviewing the complaints, chucklefucks couldn't just use it as a bludgeon against security. If the complaint isn't valid, centcom can just say "pft. Naw."
Nikov Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Someone outside of Security needs to be deciding on "hold until transfer" and other severe penalties, preferably someone without Security radio access. IAA needs to have the power to protect employee's rights, and a Hoss who throws out an IAA from the brig should fear for his job. If this third party moderator (say Captain) heard out arguments from a Security agent and an IAA defendant and weighed them for his own verdict, we'd have a huge improvement. But be careful before you place the IAA at a higher level than the Captain on that grounds that he is a corporate official. This is a terrible, terrible idea. The Captain is God Until God Relieves the Captain. If you do not have a point of absolute authority and absolute responsibility on a ship, you have a civil war between mobs breaking out nearly every round. Oh, we have that already?
Guest Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Nobody really respects the captain's authority either, until said captain has a reputation for cracking skulls if people disobey them. Like, really, you should not be questioning the captain at all. He's the one person that can not only fire you immediately, but also come up with a very good excuse to jettison you out the airlock.
LetzShake Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 I am also in favor of skull cracking. I feel like a lot of insubordination that happens. From The Bay Wiki Internal Affairs conducts thorough and unbiased investigations of all involved parties if possible. If impossible due to death, incapacitation, SSD, or insanity, then a detective's or suitable security personnel's documented findings along with verbal interview as well as witnesses will suffice. Their findings, once compiled into a cohesive summary, will then be presented to the applicable head of staff along with suggested actions to be taken. However, if a head of staff is involved, then the captain is utilized as the next go-to person for judgement to be passed. If the captain is involved in a potentially negligent, harmful, or otherwise destructive manner, then IA can and should ... confer with the heads of staff for a vote for the Captain's removal. IA cannot, at any time, break the station's chain of command nor make any decisions that would fall under a head of staff. It's oversimplifying to say the IAA outranks the captain, but they certainly have the authority to give someone the boot. Also of note. Internal Affair agents are scrutinized to a higher degree than even captains are, I think we need to treat IAAs more like that.
Gollee Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 As a note, if Lawyers do become a thing. I would highly, highly prefer that they are disallowed from sticking their overly pointed, greasy noses into Duty Officer issues; they already take long enough without unconnected players trying to have a say.
Guest Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 I am also in favor of skull cracking. I feel like a lot of insubordination that happens. Ah, no, no. I was referring to the ancient days in which Vira De Satan was captain. You know, the only captain people feared to cross? That little feeling should apply for every captain, in general. I've seen maybe a few people do pretty well with fearing their corporate authority and all, but I don't see it enough as nameless random captain, myself. I'd only support lawyers/IAA becoming lawyers as long as procedure dictates that I get to throw them out the airlock for ambulance chasing.
LetzShake Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 I am also in favor of skull cracking. I feel like a lot of insubordination that happens. Ah, no, no. I was referring to the ancient days in which Vira De Satan was captain. You know, the only captain people feared to cross? That little feeling should apply for every captain, in general. I've seen maybe a few people do pretty well with fearing their corporate authority and all, but I don't see it enough as nameless random captain, myself. I'd only support lawyers/IAA becoming lawyers as long as procedure dictates that I get to throw them out the airlock for ambulance chasing. All I know aside from the fact that I typed a sentence and forgot to finish it, is that the other day when I saw Hypathia beat an insubordinate doctor to death with a toolbox, I'd never been more satisfied with a death in this game (until maybe an hour later when two 13 year olds playing racist stereotype characters got gunned down by security)
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