Player Complaint: SenpaiShadow_

[LordFowl]

BYOND Key: Lord Fowl

Player Byond Key: SenpaiShadow_

Staff involved: N/A

Reason for complaint: During a ninja round I was playing my usual poltergeist Ninja when I experienced the issue that energy nets bugged people out. So for half of the round in mention I was attempting to fix that bug by killing the people in question and cloning them, while simultaneously avoiding the witch-hunt that I attracted the attention of by stealing the Captain's spare. After I had done as much as I could I tried to re-enter the round as smoothly as possible, dodging security tasers and the like. Eventually, during a confrontation in maintainence a security officer cornered me with a stun baton and I delivered him a nonlethal blow to the hand, disarming him and cutting off the hand. I then stun-batoned him and teleported away as the detective arrived stir-crazy with his pistol. Upon the delivery of this initially non-lethal blow, the Head of Security, who had just fully recovered from the arduous cloning process he underwent to fix the energy net bug, determined the issue of energy carbines was necessary. He gave each member of security a carbine, but instructed them to use non-lethals. At some point the man I disarmed die due to infection and low medical staff (it being dead hour), but was cloned quickly. A little time passes after issuing carbines, when the Head of Security encounters me in the bridge. I am able to dodge most of his carbine blasts, however a few strike home and so I teleport out of the bridge into space, where his taser bolts can't hit me. At this point, with in my opinion no justification, he immediately engaged in lethals and shot me to death.

My complaint is of course not about the crippling energy net bug that I had to spend most of the round re-mediating, but the trigger-switch to lethals that had almost no justification. The only openly antagonist things I did the entire round was blow up the DNA modifier in genetics (Not any of the machines vital to cloning, but rather the machines that offered genetic powers), and cut off a guy's hand. The rest of the round was spent throwing items around and generally being a minor annoyance. I hesitate to say, but I suspect that Senpai was motivated to switch to lethals solely to kill the antagonist, and I would dearly like his input on the matter.

Approximate Date/Time: 7:00 EST, AUG/2/2015

[Shadow]

Well, I switched to the lethal setting for the following reasons:

-You stole the spare ID

-You blew stuff up twice

-You showed us that you are hostile with chopping that hand off

-You messed with the AI's laws.

I mainly switched to the lethal setting because you teleported EVA where I couldn't taser you and I don't want intruders that showed hostile intent, stole the spare, blew stuff up, etc running arround. BUT, I need to say, you are not wrong, I just switched to lethal and shot you, I didn't plan to kill you, which I ultimately did because I kept shooting at you without thinking how many shots it takes until you die.

EDIT: I don't know if my memory fails me but I don't think I told them to stay at the stun setting, the only thing I recall telling the detective was that the stun setting is preferred and not that he isn't allowed to use the lethal setting.

[Garnascus]

I feel like using lethals on someone that tried so hard to bring you back into the round should be against some sort of....code... either way i feel like the jump to lethals was kinda unwarranted.

[LordFowl]

As to your statement of "I just switched to lethal and shot you, I didn't plan to kill you, which I ultimately did because I kept shooting at you without thinking how many shots it takes until you die" I don't really see how that line of thinking makes much sense. What /were/ you trying to achieve with lethals, if not outright killing me? I also don't see how taking a clearly defensive and typically nonlethal action (chopping off a head) declares you as hostile. Dangerous yes, hostile?

As to the AI laws, for clarity's sake I just switch the core lawset from NanoTrasen to PALADIN, and while I do suppose that it does set a precedent for me being able to access the core at my whim, it doesn't really declare me as hostile either.

Taking all the crimes I committed to account, I still don't see how lethals was justified.

[Shadow]

So, I switched to lethals because you ran away and I couldn't shoot you. I switched to lethals to stop you, not to kill you. Which ended in killing you because I didn't know how many shots it would take to kill you. As said, that was the mistake I made, I am sorry for that.

And you had the following crimes:

- Assault

- Infiltration

- Grand Sabotage

- Grand Theft

- Sparking a Manhunt

- Escaping From Confinement (Don't know if that is true, officers just told me)

And ICly I didn't know to which lawset you switched, we just found the AI board on you.

[TechnoKat]

AI- has almost full control of station, an "intruder" had changed it's laws, someone who has no contract, no invitation, nothing, on a secure space station designed for "crew only". Nothing fishy, yeah yeah, "totally". I mean, breaching through high secure areas and getting away with it is not a problem for internal dimwit security(hehe, just a joke, don't get serious), who can lose everything.

The intruder moves on taking couple of lives and cutting off hands from people, "totally not lethals justifiable".

The head of security switches to lethals, note, has loyalty implant and it's his duty to keep the station and its workers safe from anything. After all, it's a research/mining station, why would NanoTrasen just not care about themselves and allow some person with high tech invade them. Why are lethals given out? Not just for carps or malf drones.

You were a "ninja", something that has ability to slip out of everything successfully(stun, cuffs, invisibility), stronger and given more advantage for an antag. Your plans failed, because you didn't control the situations in different ways, so you make a complaint?

I mean, of course you were giving chances as antag and all, allowing to clone players, etc. But you were still an antag, not everything has to go your way.

Other thing was Senpai not being able to predict how many shots it takes until someone dies, that's bad for someone with a role of head of staff with access for guns as non-antag of course.

I agree with lethals option as the antagonist was almost unstoppable, but this could've ended without killing of course.

Edit:: mistaken players, excuse.

[Shadow]

Well, I mean, I know how many shots it takes to kill someone with regular armor.

What I don't know is, IF the ninja suit blocks laser damage and if yes how much. That was my problem.

With that I mean ICly and OOCly.

[Alberyk]

Same situation with wizards that can't be stopped by tasers and etc, which keep teleporting. You killed people, even if they were cloned, stole high risk item, assaulted and eventually killed the crew, resisted arrested and messed with the AI laws. So, if you can't stop the teleporting intruder with taser and he goes to eva, while you are inside the station and taser hits won't stop him, well, switching to lethals is nothing more than fair.

[LordFowl]

SenpaiShadow_ just stated the he didn't know I had changed the AI's laws /until/ I had died, solely because he found the AI board on me.

Your fascination with plurality is inaccurate, TechnoKat. I cut off one person's hand - and that only became lethal because the man didn't get to medical quick enough/medical was ssd - , and everyone else I killed was solely because of the crippling energy net bug. I don't even know why we consider those deaths canon, because they make absolutely no sense from an IC perspective, and I just put them in my post to provide perspective of the round.

Altogether, TechnoKat, I am not angry because 'my plain failed', as you so eagerly insist, although I am a bit upset at your philosophy of "well, he's an antag so he can get fucked because he's an antag!".

And I contest the point that switching to lethals is nothing more than fair, Alberyk. It supports a philosophy that Jackboot quite humorously sums up as "Pew pew the problem away".

[Shadow]

But, what did you expect what I would do when you teleported away in space where my taser couldn't hit you anymore after you committed numerous crimes crimes? I couldn't, from an IC perspective, just stand there and watch while you teleport away and continue doing your crimes.

[LordFowl]

That's an issue for you to resolve at the time but, at least in my perspective, escaping does not provide grounds for immediate execution of a person, intruder or otherwise. However, I now recognize that this is largely an IC issue more than a fault of thinking OoC (Although there is some slight bias towards the 'pew pew your problems away' motif), and am willing to close the complaint, unless anyone else would like to bring anything up. I suppose I did make this complaint in the heat of the moment, and I don't really care for executive action to be taken against Senpai.

[spacevoidagent]

I think it was kinda rude to just kill him. He spent a lot of time cloning people so they could stay in the round and you just kill him. He never directly killed anyone, so I don't think you should have used lethal force. You had your chance to sign him but missed. I think you should have let him go in space and get ready for a second encounter. Not everything has to be run and gun. You could have setup checkpoints, guards, patrols, and block off areas with bariers. I wish security would be more creative in taking down the antags that make an effort.

[Frances]

My take on this?

A really long time ago, I was playing a generic engineer antag, and tried, during an event, to kidnap a CentCom official played by our previous headmin, YeahChris. I failed a stungloving attempt at the end of an interview quite pitifully, and since even back then CC was a pretty big deal (they didn't have bodyguards though), the official was forced to draw his gun on me.

However, instead of simply shooting me down and sending me to sec, YeahChris had his character miss on purpose, even making a hilarious IC comment about how he was such a bad shot. It allowed me to escape and (for a short bit) create an interesting narrative where sec had to hunt me down in a to-that-point quiet round, instead of having the regular "arrested antag" RP which tends to be far less interesting than "antag on the loose".

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Now. I'm not saying everyone has to let antags get away all the time (I can already see Sue complaining if I did), but in situations where it would be unrealistic for your character to avoid conflict, yet solving conflict in a certain way leads to an unsatisfying resolution, your character's failure is an option. It doesn't make you any less of a player, imo, and actually marks you as a great roleplayer because you're willing to give others some leeway to allow them to create more interesting situations.

I don't think what SenpaiShadow did deserves any punishment, but this kind of stuff is still worth an honest discussion, cause I believe everyone can take a bit of time out of their rounds to do cool stuff like that.

[Alberyk]

I remember once when I gave a vampire a choice to rp when I just could fry it alive with my carbine. He ran towards me, used his power, stole my weapon and killed me alonside with another officer without any words, just to keep running around using mist form. So, sadly there are few antags players that we can trust to roleplay the situation rather than just using it to outrobust you.

[Frances]

I feel like the situation described in this complaint was one where the antag's actions were rather evident, and there's a difference between letting someone escape and giving every nuke op the benefit of the doubt they won't shoot you.

I mean, grey choices will be left up to the player's discretion, but sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't care at all if she gets robusted by antags.

In the end, though, this just goes to show me how hard it is to come to an arrangement that makes everyone happy. Some people don't care about dying cheap deaths, some do, some always play to realism and some want to break all existing rules and conventions in the hopes of creating more interesting narratives. And all these players have to coexist on the same server without any of them being in the absolute right or wrong. It's kinda hardcore.

[Tenenza]

Well then, it sounds like this has more or less wrapped up.

Unless anyone wants to add anything more to this, I'll be locking and archiving this in 24 hours.