Cats In Command(?)

[Frances]

You bring up some good points - I don't want to see the actions taken against Tajarans going overboard.

However, our lore team seems fairly reasonable, and even the current poll is evenly split between stripping Tajaran command ranks and simply monitoring them more heavily. I doubt in-universe restrictions will progress any further than that, nor do I think they need to be in order to make the race an enjoyable one for other players to experience.

What I want to see is the terrible combination of an entitled and clique-based mindset be curbed, and I think this can be done without having major impacts on how reasonable Tajaran players roleplay.

(You've also made me change my vote - after reflection, I don't think making a big push to show Tajarans they're not in charge in-universe is gonna get rid of the behavior problems. That's a different issue from the lore one altogether.)

[The Storyteller]

Hey, guys! I know it's been a long time since I've been on the forums, let alone on the servers, and I'd like to apologize to all of my friends and fans for my absence, but rest assured that I am alive! Now, on to the much more pressing matters at hand, the command status of the walking rat beasts.

I believe that the really important question that no one seems to be asking is, where is the fourth option? Looking over this whole topic, I thought it was quite obvious, but that's alright, sometimes we gloss over the things that are truly valuable in the heat of a riveting argument.

So, the fourth option, "rat beasts shouldn't be allowed in any position, ever, and should be purged from existence in The Great Rat Animorph Purge of 2457."

Now, don't worry! I hear all of you big lore buffs crying, "but wait, Scholar-san! If we just remove the walking dumpsters, that'll put plot-holes in our wonderful immersive roleplay fantasy we've got going on!" And, don't worry! As previously stated in this very post, they won't simply be removed altogether, they will be systematically destroyed by the human race in a Holocaust scale robust-ing murderbone-ing death party. And, as the last Tajara lies mangled, spattering blood from his overflown maw, and choking back salty red tears, murring, "why? Why he do this?" We humans can finally be at blissful peace.

I implore you to add a fourth option, at which point I shall vote.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Guest

[Eliot Clef]

Hey, guys! I know it's been a long time since I've been on the forums, let alone on the servers, and I'd like to apologize to all of my friends and fans for my absence, but rest assured that I am alive! Now, on to the much more pressing matters at hand, the command status of the walking rat beasts.

I believe that the really important question that no one seems to be asking is, where is the fourth option? Looking over this whole topic, I thought it was quite obvious, but that's alright, sometimes we gloss over the things that are truly valuable in the heat of a riveting argument.

So, the fourth option, "rat beasts shouldn't be allowed in any position, ever, and should be purged from existence in The Great Rat Animorph Purge of 2457."

Now, don't worry! I hear all of you big lore buffs crying, "but wait, Scholar-san! If we just remove the walking dumpsters, that'll put plot-holes in our wonderful immersive roleplay fantasy we've got going on!" And, don't worry! As previously stated in this very post, they won't simply be removed altogether, they will be systematically destroyed by the human race in a Holocaust scale robust-ing murderbone-ing death party. And, as the last Tajara lies mangled, spattering blood from his overflown maw, and choking back salty red tears, murring, "why? Why he do this?" We humans can finally be at blissful peace.

I implore you to add a fourth option, at which point I shall vote.

 

Because not all opinions and ideas are valid or worthy of consideration, and input this destructive to a sizable minority's play experience lies in that category.

[the_furry]

one thing im just gona throw out there (i actaully support a head ban) maybe allowing them to be quarter master and /maybe/ cmo. considering those two head positions are still pretty much the bottem of the barrel on heads.

[Eliot Clef]

one thing im just gona throw out there (i actaully support a head ban) maybe allowing them to be quarter master and /maybe/ cmo. considering those two head positions are still pretty much the bottem of the barrel on heads.

 

Quartermaster is not a Head, though it has responsibility over Cargo. It's not whitelisted/restricted.

[Jennalele]

I think it would be best to start out with a secondary whitelist. Most of the Taj's in command aren't the problem- it's the ones below them that stir the pot most of the time. Besides, if we're going for IC racism, I feel like NanoTrasen would do it slowly, to try and avoid a huge backlash. Tightening the restrictions before an outright re-ban of Taj heads makes a lot of RP sense, and can allow for the most fluid transition should we, in the end, have to ban them entirely.

[moltenkore]

How many current active Tajaran heads are there? I think of like three that I know of that play regularly.

[Skull132]

So, here's my two cents.

Tajarans in command are not the issue. Namely because there really aren't that many of them.

Removing Tajarans from command will do very little towards actually mending the issue of everyone acting fucktarded over Tajarans.

Here is what I've been able to take away from the past few days of "OH MY GOD CATS!". Someone got butthurt (because there really isn't a better way to put it, sorry) over IC, and brought it into OOC. In OOC, the folks who aren't exactly inclined to like Tajarans (because god knows there's a certain group of SS13 players who like to crack fun at the subject, and some are actually very invested in hating the cats) saw this as a great valid target, and the fun times began. Sometime during the funtimes, someone decided to jerk their knee with very stern warnings, massive walls of texts of "Stop being butthurt!" and vague threats coupled with the idea of, "The Tajaran behaviour ICly is broken". (Despite failing to notice that this level of IC conduct has lasted for months on end, probably more than a year. (Seriously. Sassy Tajarans existed back in January. And they existed a year ago. Why is it a big deal now?)) And then folks took that as a threat towards their mode of play, and voila. Here we are. (Or am I wrong? I'd like to know if my summary is wrong.)

I ultimately do not care if they have command privileges, as I believe it will do little to actually deal with the issue. I'll remain a fan of the, "Let them dig their own hole" mentality. The sassy ones will get ousted IC, and whenever they come to complain about it OOC (at which point, they have no ground to stand on), one can simply be honest with them and say: "Right. You are crying because of your own actions. Either fix it yourself, or deal with the consequences." (To that end. People keep crying that we're not heavyRP enough, and yet they pull stunts which land them in a very unfavourable position ICly, and all of a sudden, whenever their own actions start encroaching on their enjoyment, they think that someone's being unreasonable. You can't have HeavyRP and RP without consequences at the same time.)

Everyone on the complaints threads should slow their roll.

Tajaran players should collectively slow their roll.

And Sue needs to slow her roll.

[Guest Menown]

Tajaran players should collectively slow their roll.

 

Hey, man. I just want to fucking catbeast. I personally don't care if Tajara are axe'd from everything but civilian. I'll keep playing my catbeast that hates all other catbeasts anyway. Just in a cargo role where he can seethe at the idiots making a bad name for his species.

[Shadow]

Need to agree with the others. Tajara in command aren't the problem. Removing them from command will probably lead to nothing except another wall in character development.

[the_furry]

on a side note, lore wise, if cats are being removed from command how do we couple unathi in comand. whom i understand is considered just as much of a risk/subjugated class as the taj if not more so? lore wise how does it make since?

[Loow]

on a side note, lore wise, if cats are being removed from command how do we couple unathi in comand. whom i understand is considered just as much of a risk/subjugated class as the taj if not more so? lore wise how does it make since?

 

(Jackboot in regards to Tajara and Unathi previously in this thread)

Unathi are already barred from the Captain role, and have the stereotype of being medieval bandits. They are barred from the Captain role, and it's frowned on them to enter into the non-security or non-engineering command roles. (I don't ban it; I rely a lot on just hoping something doesn't become a fad for the species and that has gone really well so far so A+ unathi players xoxo) If they ever reached the sheer level of problems, both IC and OOC, that Tajaran players have, and it goes on the for the same length of time, rest assured there would be a consideration to kick them down.

But, at the end, it's a matter of scale and time. The Tajaran players have been a big problem for a long time.

The Tajaran are meant to be an underclass and disenfranchised. They act like they're entitled to respect. There is widespread, systematic abuse of the lore to the point that I get a complaint about Tajaran shenanigans literally every other day and it's gone on for weeks without me doing anything more than encouraging and pleading with people to combat it IC, which has failed on both accounts.

 

(Jackboot on Tajara previously in this thread)

Their lore has them be 'less than' the other races. They aren't on equal terms. Players are meant to accept the fact they're gross minorities and have a homeland that's about as stable as Assad's Syria or Yugoslavia just before the break-up.

[NebulaFlare]

Personally, if cats get removed from command, so should IPCs. I have never liked the fact that their Head ban was lifted. And in my humble opinion, IPC head makes a lot less sense than a tajara head.

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

Personally, if cats get removed from command, so should IPCs. I have never liked the fact that their Head ban was lifted. And in my humble opinion, IPC head makes a lot less sense than a tajara head.

 

Why does it make sense to restrict something we created, something we understand, something we can control, rather than a species whom at this point is still in the range where Native Americans were being slaughtered at the thousands.

[Jboy2000000]

If thats the case, why can't IPC's be captains, HoS's and HoP's? Why are they in the short seat with Diona where they only get to be in three of the heads instead 5/6? Back when IPC's were begrudgingly allowed to be ANY type of head, it was said they were excluded because they could be hacked and would be dangerous.

[Nanda]

I made and IPC whitelist application. Later, I made a head of staff whitelist application. This method targetting Tajara would imply I need to make a third whitelist app for Aquila to be able to be CE. My human HoP doesn't have to do this,

[NebulaFlare]

If human supremacy means they don't want to bow down to cat-heads, then how can they even considering bowing down to TV-heads - a race that they created and control?

This whole thing started because a few self-entitled Taj talk smack, talk back, and rally together for fair rights.

Now don't read me wrong: a movement for species equality is great. But people do forget that NT is the disputable savior that freed Tajara from their shackles. My character Karima is a roboticist research prodigy who was given the opportunity of education, support for her family, and advance farther up the social ladder. She's made so much sacrifices that she took speech classes /just/ to be accepted as a reputable researcher in the scientific department.

I'm not saying everyone should be a Karima copy. No times a thousand. But I...don't see (or rarely ever see) other catbeasts making such sacrifices to fit in within a human culture. Jackboot has his head taj start talking in first person, and wrote a book on his sadness of how Taj society has shifted dramatically. I could name a couple others. But too many times do Tajara do things just to spite everyone else. Talk on the radio for one? Security, start doing your bleeping job and pressing fines. Consider the danger of claws when a Taj brandishes them - it should be assault, not battery. The cultural friction of Taj and humans is what creates an arpee enviroment. Tajara being tightly-knitted and defending each other is just part of their roleplay. It's become akin to their culture. Besides, aren't Tajara pretty family oriented to begin with? The ones who are causing issues to the humans have been allowed to get away with it. And they're not heads.

My Tajara Nuke-OP Shadow...well, she's convinced NT killed her father. So she hates them. But she doesn't hate humans (or any other species). Her loyalty is just to Syndies instead.

I honestly believe this ban will do absolutely nothing.

[Loow]

We can only hope that this vote, along with responsible RP and moderating, can help players to interact in interesting ways. If there is a focus on fixing problems as they come, it is quite possible that less "bad RP" will happen on either side. If people are willing to learn, we may see less poorly done or overly dramatic "hate RP." This would then mean that less Tajara would feel a need to act in defensive/offensive manners that make those who do "Bad Hate RP" feel justified.

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

If thats the case, why can't IPC's be captains, HoS's and HoP's? Why are they in the short seat with Diona where they only get to be in three of the heads instead 5/6? Back when IPC's were begrudgingly allowed to be ANY type of head, it was said they were excluded because they could be hacked and would be dangerous.

And I disagree with that.

[Nanda]

If thats the case, why can't IPC's be captains, HoS's and HoP's? Why are they in the short seat with Diona where they only get to be in three of the heads instead 5/6? Back when IPC's were begrudgingly allowed to be ANY type of head, it was said they were excluded because they could be hacked and would be dangerous.

And I disagree with that.

 

Yes..? You disagree? Can we have some more information? I'd like to hear your view, please.

[Zidanyia]

If thats the case, why can't IPC's be captains, HoS's and HoP's? Why are they in the short seat with Diona where they only get to be in three of the heads instead 5/6? Back when IPC's were begrudgingly allowed to be ANY type of head, it was said they were excluded because they could be hacked and would be dangerous.

Because they are manufactured servants. It is an absolute miracle that in 2400~ or so that they are given 'freedom' of any particular station-bound lawset, more so that they get paid to fulfill their primary function.

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief a little just for the above description. But when it comes down to it, they are merely droids. They are designed and programmed to fulfill a specific function so that another human doesn't have to do it instead.

Could you imagine how pissed off someone would be at their workplace if they show up and suddenly a droid sysadmin is ordering everybody around? Humans most of all absolutely despise being marginalized. Screw your catbeasts and your lizards for a second and think for a moment. Remember that the human race is dominant for a multitude of good reasons.

I mean, hell, I'm the kind of person that engaged in Star Wars tabletop games. I played a lot of different types of droids. I really enjoyed all of them, and they all felt very iconic and identifiable in their own way.

But I think that the general thematic in any sci-fi or sci-fantasy game is that the synthetics are generally servants to their masters. They fulfill one or a few functions, and nothing more, for their programming is still limited in this day and age in comparison to some warmind AI that can call down orbital death whenever it wants to, and summon robot murderbot legions to do its bidding.

So, just to conclude my view on the whole "IPCs in command" thing. I don't think it should be a thing. At all. Because there is no reason why IPCs should act as entitled as humans do in any position of authority. The difference is this: It is believable that humans would act as they would. Imperfect, flawed, generally composed of assholes. Prideful. And so on.

A robot would not act like that. They are creatures of logic and reason. They are constantly calculating probabilities and the math of smaller day-to-day tasks. They do not show emotion, and it is a giant stretch when they are told to emulate it, because a robot telling itself to 'fake' emotion is not something that can be done unless performed under very specific circumstances.

IPCs and robot players. I ask you to do this. Just roleplay in a matter that makes it make sense. Be the tin can you were born to roleplay.

[Guest Menown]

Keep in mind, not all IPCs are IPCs now. Some have human, skrell, tajara, unathi, ect, minds. I'm honestly waiting for an uplifted dog shell to be played in command of medical or something. "Doctor, we need help." "Woof!"

[Zidanyia]

They still are programs inside of a chassis.

They are robots. You cannot change that with any layer of paint or false fur/scales/skin.

[Xelnagahunter]

A robot would not act like that. They are creatures of logic and reason. They are constantly calculating probabilities and the math of smaller day-to-day tasks. They do not show emotion, and it is a giant stretch when they are told to emulate it, because a robot telling itself to 'fake' emotion is not something that can be done unless performed under very specific circumstances.

IPCs and robot players. I ask you to do this. Just roleplay in a matter that makes it make sense. Be the tin can you were born to roleplay.

 

This is where you and I have differing opinions. Many of our IPCs are Posibrains, and these are the ones I'm thinking of. They are not robots. They are not simple computers that see the world in an on or off state. The player are playing AI units. Artificial INTELLIGENCE. They have an intellect and can respond to activities beyond the scope of what a person programs by utilizing various observations and past records.

Beyond that, as Meow said, a few of the IPC players are using an MMI, meaning they aren't fully synthetic. Those players have no reason to be banned from various positions.

That point aside, this thread isn't about IPCs. So I'm going to launch us back into Tajara players. The reason IPCs came up was fairness and people seeing the OOC actions limiting IC actions to be overly meta and against our established concepts. But from an IC perspective this is possible. (Note I voted to leave things as they are and just watch Taj players more closely.) The incidents that are causing this to happen could be effecting several stations that use the Odin as CC, in response they enact a ban on tajaran heads or force additional screening before they are allowed to serve in those positions. IC justification is really simple and it all stems from our IC events anyways.

[Killerhurtz]

Decision resolved. Locking and archiving.