Alternatives to Brigging and Fines

[Lady_of_Ravens]

It's worth considering for some types of crimes... assuming proper oversight is available.

[Frances]

So I made this... Thoughts?

Do you want my thoughts?

-Maintenance duty sounds great. Force vandals to fix their own mess. If the station's dirty and there's no janitor, grab a prisoner and put them on janitorial duty (like the janitor role was originally intended for!)

-Forced test subjects doesn't sound in line with the serious lore we have. It's pretty unethical.

-You don't really punish people for suicide attempts, you get them help (suicidal individuals should be placed under observation in medbay until they've been cleared.)

-Voluntary borgings don't really fit within the lore, but I'd love to see them back somehow. (We could just say "what the hell" and do them tbh, roboticists borg random volunteers often enough.)

[Killerhurtz]

Forced test subjects: I don't ENTIRELY see how it's unethical. And I watched my wording, this time - offers themselves. It's not a forced sentence - it's one of the volunteer ones. And it's also specifically non-lethal AND non-permanent - so in the moment it might be painful, but they will leave like they came in at least physically.

For suicide? I agree. That's EXACTLY why I made this. It gives them something to do, to think about, in one of the safer spaces of the station... instead of the recommended possible brig and demotion. It's more of a 'time-out, calm down' type of ordeal.

Voluntary borging is SPECIFICALLY in synthetic history. They GOT the whole idea, and tech, from volunteers. It makes sense, to me, that even though the technology is pretty advanced, that people with a proper psychological assessment, could decide to become cyborgs. (Though I did touch it in my Lawed Synthetic page that I posted in Lore Canonification - that most people would instead go for IPC platforms)

[Jboy2000000]

While Suicide Squad-esque Danger Volunteering sounds cool, I think it'd be abuse far, far, far to much to ever be viable. Beside that, Ill run down what I think about the rest of this stuff.

Patrol Backup: This sounds really cool, they do, do something like this in real life, last I heard, taking people on as like a "scared straight" program where they take people in patrol cars.

Minor Maintenance: I like this, either fix the mess they made, or if its crayon vandalism, or something else like that, monotonous tasks could be cool to do, I don't know about most people, but I actually find them fun and calming. Hence why I like mining, but thats not what we're here to talk about.

Arts and Crafts: Eeehh... I don't know if this would work. The only things I can think of to do as an art project with stuff in the art storage might also be considered vandalism, wire art makes you tear up floors, and drawing on the floor in vandalism itself.

Library Duty: This seem really cool, as long as its the only alternative, IE, no psychologist, chaplain/counselor, or qualified CMO. This isn't to say they shouldn't be seen as soon as one of those is available though.

Physical Work: The only thing I can think of that can be made with given materials are the make-shift weapons like spears, crossbows, flamethrowers, and you get the just of what Im saying.

Beside what I said, I don't have any notes about the rest of whats said in Killer's (cool) wii of alternatives and activities for the brigged masses.

[Hackie]

I usually try to sit down and talk with a prisoner if:

A. I'm not busy or preoccupied with something else.

B. I'm particularly focused on the game as of the moment.

C. They're not making unreasonable trouble for a minor crime.

[Frances]

Forced test subjects: I don't ENTIRELY see how it's unethical. And I watched my wording, this time - offers themselves. It's not a forced sentence - it's one of the volunteer ones. And it's also specifically non-lethal AND non-permanent - so in the moment it might be painful, but they will leave like they came in at least physically.

Whoops, I missed the voluntary part! That's a pretty cool idea, then, though it'd mostly be science's job to request test subjects I guess.

[Zundy]

Forced test subjects: I don't ENTIRELY see how it's unethical. And I watched my wording, this time - offers themselves. It's not a forced sentence - it's one of the volunteer ones. And it's also specifically non-lethal AND non-permanent - so in the moment it might be painful, but they will leave like they came in at least physically.

Whoops, I missed the voluntary part! That's a pretty cool idea, then, though it'd mostly be science's job to request test subjects I guess.

 

Don't forget medical! We need our live test subjects too!

[Susan]

This is monumentally stupid.

There's two kinds of people who ever get in trouble with security. There's your first time offender, and while I can't speak for other security officers, I usually let people go for low level crimes with a warning if they aren't colossal fucks to Ana or repeat offenders. Making a prisoner clean up their own vandalism is obvious and should be done already.

The other kind of person who gets brigged is the shitler. These are people who do serious, violent crimes and then harass security constantly or shout and scream IC or OOC - these can be regular players or balds. Allowing these people out into the station is not a thing we should do until their sentences are over. Arts and crafts can be done in the communal brig. People can visit the communal brig.

But if you're going to be a massive cock to security in character, why do you expect them to sit down and visit you?

I am entirely against outrageous, low-rp notions of 'forced test subjects' or anything of the sort. What you people fail to realize is certain crimes like assault are crimes under the Sol Alliance and Biesel law, and can carry sentences upwards of seven years. Murder. Rape. Drug peddling. These are all federal crimes.

Security shouldn't be letting these people off scott-free. Put more things in the communal brig for people to do. Christ.

[Zundy]

This is monumentally stupid.

There's two kinds of people who ever get in trouble with security. There's your first time offender, and while I can't speak for other security officers, I usually let people go for low level crimes with a warning if they aren't colossal fucks to Ana or repeat offenders. Making a prisoner clean up their own vandalism is obvious and should be done already.

The other kind of person who gets brigged is the shitler. These are people who do serious, violent crimes and then harass security constantly or shout and scream IC or OOC - these can be regular players or balds. Allowing these people out into the station is not a thing we should do until their sentences are over. Arts and crafts can be done in the communal brig. People can visit the communal brig.

But if you're going to be a massive cock to security in character, why do you expect them to sit down and visit you?

I am entirely against outrageous, low-rp notions of 'forced test subjects' or anything of the sort. What you people fail to realize is certain crimes like assault are crimes under the Sol Alliance and Biesel law, and can carry sentences upwards of seven years. Murder. Rape. Drug peddling. These are all federal crimes.

Security shouldn't be letting these people off scott-free. Put more things in the communal brig for people to do. Christ.

 

Err forced labor isn't letting them go Scott free. We make prisoners do manual labor now IRL. Why is high rp brigging some one for 15 minutes? If we're going to go full high rp then getting arrested means your character is gone forever because at the very least you'd get fired and at worst be imprisoned for life.

Anyway you could still perma the retards, we're just bringing up potential alternatives to keep the legit players in the game. Be it labor, experiments etc or just shipping them off in "Prison Ships" (cryo).

Edited November 19, 2015 by Guest

[Killerhurtz]

Jesus christ Susan what fly bit you?

But yeah, what Zundy said. It's not low-RP notion. It's notions to make brigging not a fucking boredom sentence. Sure, you can put more things to do in the communal brig - but there's only so much you can do after a while. And it still doesn't help the permabrigged people.

Instead of going 'it's monumentally stupid' how about you actually suggest things to implement instead of the given suggestions?

Seriously.

[Susan]

Because there's literally nothing wrong with the current system.

Stop being salty you get permabrigged for murdering people.

[Guest]

is it my turn to cuck up this thread again

Why, yes it is.

This idea, or any other half-assed idea you may have will never work. There are no more security regulars to put this in place. The state of the server has sunk rather rapidly since March in terms of the whole "roleplay" thing we pretend to deceive ourselves with. Nobody is going to be assed to do anything with any suggestion you people put up on the boards here.

You cannot force change to security without it being outright mechanical. We/it/whatever is not going to care. It is going to continue doing its job in keeping people safe, even if that means taking people out of the round because they're a horrid risk.

Officers are still going to use the brig to give people time-outs for getting caught doing stupid shit.

Most antags get coddled by the playerbase anyway, which is pretty much why all the good security players are driven away. The role's not fun anymore because you people decide to make our job absolutely suffering based on our character set-up preferences. And then you want security to be scrutinized more, and more, and more, and more, and more. Does it ever fucking end?

You can cry gank, you can cry validhunt, you're entitled to whatever retarded opinion you have about security. But when it comes to murdering or intentionally causing chaos, I'd still put my best foot forward into robusting your stupid butt and tossing you into an isolation cell. The only level of fairness you are obligated is how much you've given other people.

I'm surprised Sue even gives a fuck about the balance anymore.

I'm extremely salty that despite all the amount of investment and time I put into trying to be a good security player and to teach others to be good, too, all it takes is some misguided fools to rally the others to set our fun little system of controlled chaos back to the hellhole it started as.

Here's my idea, if you don't like being brigged or fined, why don't you mass-murder security every round? Now you don't have to worry about getting arrested for doing bad things anymore :^)

If you take any offense to this,

[Frances]

People are just trying to come up with some fun and non-destructive ideas to make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

I'm not sure why you want to turn it into a fight of antags vs sec, because that really wasn't the intent of the thread :/

 

The state of the server has sunk rather rapidly since March in terms of the whole "roleplay" thing we pretend to deceive ourselves with. Nobody is going to be assed to do anything with any suggestion you people put up on the boards here.

If that's what you think, then why are you even posting?

[Guest]

I'm not sure why you want to turn it into a fight of antags vs sec, because that really wasn't the intent of the thread :/

 

The state of the server has sunk rather rapidly since March in terms of the whole "roleplay" thing we pretend to deceive ourselves with. Nobody is going to be assed to do anything with any suggestion you people put up on the boards here.

If that's what you think, then why are you even posting?

 

Anytime "the brig" or "criminals" gets brought up, it's usually about the whole sec & antag interaction metagame everyone loves to talk about. It's pretty much mutually exclusive at this point, because that's just about all you talk about. Last I checked, you aren't the OP either, so I don't think you can speak for anybody's intent but your own here.

I'd ask you why you're still posting, too, but it seems we're both in the same boat of not wanting to let this server go.

[Frances]

Okay, but just because you've had a bad time with sec doesn't mean everybody's pissed off and unwilling to play with antags until endtimes.

Why not let other people have their discussion?

[Killerhurtz]

Susan, everything is NOT fine. Because let's be honest - antags are supposed to make the round more fun. As soon as antags are captured, it means that the gametype is going to be pretty much extended. With alternate sentences, it allows people to interact further with the antag - maybe even allow them to make a come back to make the round interesting again. I don't care that you're fine with the round being post-antag extended - I usually am too. But I see beyond my self-interest - that if roundtypes are voted, people are interested in it. Hell, if the situation gets better, I may even be interested in antags again. But shunning antags more and more is NOT going to help the Aurora grow.

Delta, yes the current situation is fucked. Instead of complaining that it's never going to work, try to contribute - because if we make the suggestions here lore, we CAN actually enforce it IC because if security applies none of the final measures decided upon, they're acting against Central interest - and thus can face consequences. Sure, we could all stop breaking the law and just mechanically do the same task over and over. But let's admit it - if we did that, security would have no purpose, we could make away with it. Little crimes in extended, and major crimes as an antag, is the very reason Security exist, and they can most definitely create interesting situations if people don't see it as "this guy made IC illegal actions, let's punish the player by isolating them from everything" but rather as "this guy made IC illegal actions to try and start a situation, let's use this to our advantage to make things interesting" and let the mods and admins sort out who's a shitler and who was legit trying to roleplay something DIFFERENT than the model citizen for once.

Seriously. Doing nothing will result in nothing. Worse, doing nothing STOPS nothing, which means that the situation can get a lot worse. Putting ideas out will at least get things moving. And if it doesn't work? We know it doesn't work, and we get on thinking of other solutions.

[Jboy2000000]

I don't care about the Sec V. Antag "metagame" as you call it. Im interested in keeping the game fun throughout an entire round, even under special circumstances. People were so excited when the communal brig started the idea of prisoner RP, why is everyone so pissed about it now? Who cares if people have fun in the brig? Who cares if its extended and someone commuted a crime to give sec something to do, who cares if someone took a chance to do something during secret because it might be extended? I get that some people seem to be "anti-fairness" around the server, but this is ridiculous.

[Susan]

Being brigged is a punishment, it's not supposed to be fun.

Dying isn't fun. Being valid'd by the antag isn't fun. Not having your favorite slot open isn't fun.

Get over it. As a heavy roleplay server, you need to come to terms with the fact believability and actual roleplay take precedence over the mindless shit that happens on /tg/ or goon. This isn't that kind of server. If you don't want to get arrested and put in the brig, don't break the law and shit on security. We're more than willing to be lenient when you don't kick up a hissy fit and start screaming IC/in LOOC about how this isn't fair.

Everyone is entitled.

That's why people get brigged. They shout, scream, yell at officers - it's tiresome, all because they had to claw/punch/crowbar someone who called them a name.

There is no game out there that does not have repercussions for actions, and there is no game out there that doesn't have 'unfun' moments. It's part of it. This is a game, and when you break the game's rules, you get punished. A + B = C.

Maybe you could try being nice to officers. Maybe for once I could walk up to someone who isn't an edgy catbeast or a Medbay lesbian who fights me all the way to the brig, tries to disarm spam me into submission - yes, this has happened plenty - and have them explain to me why they did what they did for their meaningless tiny crime, and I can let them off with a warning.

That happened maybe twice in the two years I've been playing this game.

[Alberyk]

Susan, everything is NOT fine. Because let's be honest - antags are supposed to make the round more fun. As soon as antags are captured, it means that the gametype is going to be pretty much extended. With alternate sentences, it allows people to interact further with the antag - maybe even allow them to make a come back to make the round interesting again. I don't care that you're fine with the round being post-antag extended - I usually am too. But I see beyond my self-interest - that if roundtypes are voted, people are interested in it. Hell, if the situation gets better, I may even be interested in antags again. But shunning antags more and more is NOT going to help the Aurora grow.

 

That is rather easy to deal with, don't get caught as antag, or do something else rather than going around shooting people with a gun or cutting their heads off with wirecutters while they try to type.

[Dreamix]

Being brigged is a punishment, it's not supposed to be fun.

I think, you are failing to separate IC and OOC.

Being brigged may be a 'unfun' punishment for a character. Dying out of boredom in a cell. Cleaning floors as a 'retribution' for hours. Being used as a science test subject, risking death. Boarding the crew transfer shuttle, knowing that you will get fired, because of all the things you did throughout the shift. Maybe dying. All of that is not fun, a sane character wouldn't want any of this. Would fear dying. It's not fun in a IC way.

But it may be a pleasant OOC/game experience. Trying to break out with other detainees, thinking of coordinated escape plans, to get out just one of you. Interacting with people passing by you, 'accidentally' slipping people and helping them up. Being a necessary aid in important research findings, giving the medbay some things to do, by near-dying as a result. Boarding the crew shuttle while having a mental breakdown, being cheered up by your fellow assistant. Dying somewhere in maintenance, knowing that someone is crying in grief. That's sort of fun.

The second thing. That's what people posting in this thread want, I believe. Opportunities to roleplay, instead of just being left in a cell. Being allowed to roleplay (sure, you can just talk with passing by non-brigged people through a window, or with security officers, but it's just not that), to interact with people. To actually have a pleasant OOC experience.

 

Dying isn't fun. Being valid'd by the antag isn't fun. (...)

For you. For me, and majority (I believe) of people playing here, dying actually may sometimes be fun. Choosing to kill yourself by swallowing a cyanide pill, to not give the nuke op pleasure to kill you the 'hard way', while the roleplaying situation was actually roleplayed. A fight club champion being overtaken by 'just assistant'. A honorable fight between a unathi, and a changeling. Being a subject of a revenge. There are lots of fun ways to die, fun for the dying, and the killing one.

 

If you don't want to get arrested and put in the brig, don't break the law and shit on security.

Let's become extended-only server, then. Sometimes, people want to get arrested, there are lots of various reasons. Maybe, someone just wanted to steal something, just to give security something to do, and someone to roleplay with, for example. Also, antags, sometimes plans just don't go well. You are assuming that everyone is a chucklefuck that's just hates security, don't do that, please.

 

(...) That happened maybe twice in the two years I've been playing this game.

Maybe, you should take a break. Not going on a 'hiatus' (or whatever), while occasionally posting (sort of) hateful posts on forums and holding onto the lore-writer position. But actually giving up for a month of two

[Jboy2000000]

Sue, you're right, theres always going to be stuff that isn't fun in every game there is, but just because thats true doesn't mean you shouldn't try to remove all the unfuness you can. If you want to make it seem like this suggestion about believability over roleplay, go make your own thread in suggestion or general, talk about how we should remove the communal brig, cloning, debuff engineering to hell, and remove every non-human species in the game, because those are things where fun, gameplay, and enjoyability already have overstepped reality.

[Susan]

You're making a hyperbole. It's unbecoming.

Brig sentences are perhaps five, ten, or fifteen minutes or most. All you have to do is go watch youtube or something.

This would never be used, because of reasons already stated - prisoners in for upwards of 30 minutes have done bad shit and no sane law enforcement officer is going to cut them loose, and people below that, by the time it's all set up, would have their sentences nearly finished, and then undoing it all to release them would eat up the rest of the time.

Maybe we should put back in the gameboard or something.

[Frances]

Sue essentially sums up what I already thought, although she might not be doing the best job of it.

Basically, short sentences are too short to do much with, long sentences are given for crimes it'd be unrealistic to give "alternative" punishments for. This doesn't mean we can't think of ways to improve the communal brig, though.

 

Maybe you could try being nice to officers. Maybe for once I could walk up to someone who isn't an edgy catbeast or a Medbay lesbian who fights me all the way to the brig, tries to disarm spam me into submission - yes, this has happened plenty - and have them explain to me why they did what they did for their meaningless tiny crime, and I can let them off with a warning.

That happened maybe twice in the two years I've been playing this game.

That part of your post puzzles me. And it's not even fully related to the thread, but you have me going like wat. While you're describing the average graytider, a good 50% of arrests (if not more) don't go like that, and if they do you've been one of the biggest proponents of "security has the tools to stop these people so they should simply use them". I wouldn't be surprised if you ran into less than enjoyable experiences, though, because Ana is literally the most confrontational sec officer I have ever seen on Aurora. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, if you enjoy the kind of conflict it breeds (some of it is hilarious, including some of the stuff Ana says and the replies she gets from people). But you can't, like, do that as part of a character, and complain OOCly that you're met with IC hostility afterwards.

[Zundy]

You're making a hyperbole. It's unbecoming.

Brig sentences are perhaps five, ten, or fifteen minutes or most. All you have to do is go watch youtube or something.

This would never be used, because of reasons already stated - prisoners in for upwards of 30 minutes have done bad shit and no sane law enforcement officer is going to cut them loose, and people below that, by the time it's all set up, would have their sentences nearly finished, and then undoing it all to release them would eat up the rest of the time.

Maybe we should put back in the gameboard or something.

 

Right well there's nothing to loose by adding in the option for labor/testing/prison ship anyway so why not have it? Its just more options.

[EvilBrage]

Jesus christ Susan what fly bit you?

The antag fly. Why do you think he hunts the shit out of them?

Anyways, I don't see this working out for a "work credits for release" thing, as a pay dock would essentially be the same thing. Instead, I could see this as a viable alternative to keeping a bunch of people in the brig forever (such as during cult/rev rounds) and simply forcing them to work until the transfer shuttle comes.