Extended and Secret gamemode vote changes

[JKJudgeX]

In my view, knowing the roundtype in SS13 is something that many players can not handle correctly. The metagaming is amazing. In order to address this, I have a suggestion (this is ONE suggestion as I don't want any part of it to ever happen without the others):

1) Remove all gamemodes from gamemode vote except for secret and extended.

2) Remove extended from secret gamemode.

And in order to handle the failed setup during round start problem, put a piece of code in that automatically chooses a different random gamemode on fail, and tries to start again, rather than resetting the entire lobby.

Otherwise, problem gamemodes could go back on the list for specific voting, but I would much prefer to see as many of them included in secret as possible (except for malf AI, it really is a trash roundtype, but that's another topic).

Please don't tell me to adminhelp when someone behaves in meta ways. We only detect meta-behavior when someone goofs up, but that doesn't mean that meta-behavior doesn't have a huge impact on the game at hand.

That chemist that mysteriously wants Uranium at the beginning of a malf-AI round? Oh, wow, the Chaplain sure is active here in this cult round even though there wasn't even a chaplain for the past 8 rounds! Red alert? You saw a guy in a reddish spacesuit? Well, okay. "You PDA'd me to meet you in the library for some reason, but it's a traitor or vampire round? No thanks, normally I'd love to pop right in, but, no I have to finish up this all-important R&D right now"... and a million other "undetectable" meta-behaviors. "Yeah, too bad I had to shoot that guy to death with a laser instead of arresting him like every other antag, because it was 2 minutes til the shuttle arrived and he was home fre-- I mean, he was craaaaazy dangerous and I had no choice because I was ... uhh scared!"

Anyway, I hate knowing the round type, and I really hate it when other people know the roundtype... if people want to play a specific kind of round here and there, that's what admins are for, IMO.

This would also have the potential of letting us play a few different gamemodes here, from the ones that are very rarely selected due to the "extended gang" forcing everyone who doesn't want to play extended to agree to just throw "Secret" every time.

Huge kudos to the players who are willing to RP their ignorance even into their own knowing doom, but these kinds of players seem to be the minority here.

[Eliot Clef]

No, thanks. It's fine as-is.

[JKJudgeX]

No, thanks. It's fine as-is.

Whole-heartedly disagree. Great reasoning though.

[Guest]

I'm fairly certain we had this discussion before. If I want to play a specific game mode, I'll vote it and hope other people hop over and try to make it happen. Even if it's malf of ninja.

People should be trusted not to metagame. And, honestly, whether the round type is secret or not, people end up metagaming for valids anyway.

[Eliot Clef]

No, thanks. It's fine as-is.

Whole-heartedly disagree. Great reasoning though.

 

There's really not much for me to argue about here. It's another thread focused on axing some round types that somebody (you) has a beef against insofar as it is possible to do so, along with altering the voting norm. I don't really care for the regularity with which nuclear gets voted, but that doesn't mean its ability to turn up randomly should be reduced, or that it should be effectively axed.

For that matter, I don't think Secret or Extended is really desirable.

In summary: I disagree and don't care for your personal issues with certain game modes. There's barely anything for me to say.

[JKJudgeX]

I'm fairly certain we had this discussion before. If I want to play a specific game mode, I'll vote it and hope other people hop over and try to make it happen. Even if it's malf of ninja.

People should be trusted not to metagame. And, honestly, whether the round type is secret or not, people end up metagaming for valids anyway.

meta-gaming for valids when you don't know if and when and where or what type of valids is significantly more difficult than specifically pre-building that backup A.I. against the malf-A.I. or mysteriously deciding to blood test changelings or check PDAs against traitors.

I end up as antagonist a lot because I don't play heads. I know meta and valid-hunting when I see it, but it quite often cannot be easily proven.

If you want a natural reduction in meta behaviors, you sacrifice getting to vote in and cherry-pick your favorite round-type. You could always ask an admin to force a gamemode as an event.

It seems like you thought I was making the claim that there's no more meta or powergaming if we don't know the round type, but that's not at all what I said or implied... just that it would be reduced, and I think that's well-worth not getting to specifically choose "ninja". "Ninja" can be included in "secret", and what gamemodes belong in secret are something that a lasting consensus can be arrived upon, and also something that can be modified in the future by public vote on the forums.

[JKJudgeX]

No, thanks. It's fine as-is.

Whole-heartedly disagree. Great reasoning though.

 

There's really not much for me to argue about here. It's another thread focused on axing some round types that somebody (you) has a beef against insofar as it is possible to do so, along with altering the voting norm. I don't really care for the regularity with which nuclear gets voted, but that doesn't mean its ability to turn up randomly should be reduced, or that it should be effectively axed.

For that matter, I don't think Secret or Extended is really desirable.

In summary: I disagree and don't care for your personal issues with certain game modes. There's barely anything for me to say.

 

It wasn't about axing round types. It was about not knowing the round type from the start.

The server probably plays secret or extended 90% of the time anyway, so why not include a few more gamemodes in secret, and leave the options just as secret and extended for the purposes of increasing immersion and decreasing meta-play.

You'd probably see a lot less players beeline to cryo the instant they spawned in and weren't an antag or a desired role if they didn't know the roundtype at the beginning...

There are a lot of advantages here, and I don't expect you to address every single one.

I don't like extended mode, but as you can see in my post I included it as THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE to vote for because I know many players here enjoy extended... but I'd be willing to wager a great deal of money that the majority of people who voted for "secret" on a given round really didn't want "extended"... and I'd be willing to bet also that cult, vampire, and changeling rounds would all work better if no one knew the roundtype.

This change PROMOTES RP. Knowing the roundtype PROMOTES Meta. Your call. My stance is clear.

[Eliot Clef]

Alright. So here's the thing.

Yes, you're promoting (effectively) axing a round type. You don't want Malf AI to be in the rotation, it's one of the things you mentioned in your post. Beyond that, your concept involves introducing a binary (or close) vote: Antags, or no antags. This reduces the possibility of the second option being selected at all, something that is (relatively) irregular unless it's very late at night to begin with.

Introducing a Secret scramble that includes all possible roundtypes also isn't likely to eliminate meta, because you're still informing people what to expect (especially if Extended is removed from the scramble). People will know to expect antags of some kind, even if they won't know exactly what to expect. Paranoia will remain in force.

Basically, this idea isn't going to solve your problem and would drastically lower the possibility of a minority of game modes getting selected. So yes, my call is: No thanks, it's fine as-is.

[JKJudgeX]

Alright. So here's the thing.

Yes, you're promoting (effectively) axing a round type. You don't want Malf AI to be in the rotation, it's one of the things you mentioned in your post. Beyond that, your concept involves introducing a binary (or close) vote: Antags, or no antags. This reduces the possibility of the second option being selected at all, something that is (relatively) irregular unless it's very late at night to begin with.

Introducing a Secret scramble that includes all possible roundtypes also isn't likely to eliminate meta, because you're still informing people what to expect (especially if Extended is removed from the scramble). People will know to expect antags of some kind, even if they won't know exactly what to expect. Paranoia will remain in force.

Basically, this idea isn't going to solve your problem and would drastically lower the possibility of a minority of game modes getting selected. So yes, my call is: No thanks, it's fine as-is.

 

I specifically said I didn't like Malf AI but said that's another thread. Malf AI would be included under secret in this suggestion, so, please read more closely in the future.

The vote is already essentially binary, any option selected other than "extended" was already a vote for there to be antags. The ONLY difference here is that I'm trying to keep knowledge of the roundtype concealed, because it results in better gameplay. This has been talked about in OOC many times this week alone, not even by me.

I vote "Secret" every time unless extended is tied for the win with another roundtype, at which point I acquiesce and vote that other roundtype, because extended sucks and a huge portion of the crew just AFK's or goes to cryo after a little bit, at which point OOC conversation fills the screen with bluetext for about 50 minutes, and then finally a crew transfer vote is pushed though after 3+ hours of dull play. Before you go there, yes, I have enjoyed some extended rounds as I enjoy playing non-antags just at work sometimes, but having conflict and a clear, common goal brings people out of their shell sometimes, and the best rounds I've ever played have been NON-extended... so... back to the actual point...

I only said to take extended out of secret mode because when people vote for secret they generally don't want extended... so, whether that part flies or not is irrelevant, the "not knowing it's nuclear" or "not knowing it's wizard" really make it more fun.

I'll throw in an anecdote of a wizard round I played a long time ago on Aurora... I infiltrated the ship and put on some assistant clothes, had a realistic name, and had plans for a fun event where I use mind-swap a few times (my wizard's goal was to steal a command-level identity)... strangely, though, the instant I was seen on screen, my lack of an ID was made into a large deal. I've been without an ID like a million times, and never been subject to the scrutiny of being looked up in the crew roster the instant that I mentioned I'd lost my ID, but sure enough, we voted wizard, and these guys knew I was lying. Had this been secret, they probably wouldn't have even asked why a 100% random assistant didn't have an ID. Coincidence? Maybe. We'll never know since everyone knew the roundtype was wizard. No one did anything that outwardly PROVED they were metagaming, but, I'm about 90% sure they were. You don't get to play many wizard rounds in SS13. The times you do shouldn't be spoiled by people knowing it's wizard, IMO.

[LordFowl]

I've always been a big proponent of game mechanics removing the need to trust playerbases (Which are volatile and constantly shifting). I cannot reasonably trust the playerbase to not metagame, nor can I trust the administration team to solve the issue of metagame permanently without great expense of effort which would detract from other administrative objectives. My suggestion would be as follows;

Make it a binary vote, secret or extended. Equalize all gamemodes for the secret selection (Because as some people probably know, the 'random selection' is actual weighted in favour of certain gamemodes.) This thread is not to discuss removing Malf AI. I might keep extended in the secret rotation to further keep people on their toes, but ultimately I think this is a very good idea so long as we make every gamemode option equally weighted in the secret rotation.

[Eliot Clef]

Sure, okay. Malf AI is a discussion for another time.

I think that if we were to do this, Extended would need to be a part of the potential mix. I think this for two reasons: Firstly, it introduces the additional possibility that there will be no antagonists at all, making it much more irrational to be paranoid/metagame an assumption of hostility from antagonists. Secondly, it prevents Extended from being shuffled out of existence entirely, which I think is entirely possible under this voting scheme.

That said, this suggestion becoming a reality strikes me as a distant possibility that I hope doesn't get traction, and my suggestion above is merely how I think it should be if it absolutely must happen. On the whole, my opinion remains the same as in my first post in this thread.

[Frances]

Firstly, it introduces the additional possibility that there will be no antagonists at all, making it much more irrational to be paranoid/metagame an assumption of hostility from antagonists.

Irrational, from... which perspective, though? Characters ICly don't know about roundtypes, and OOCly, voting for secret only to find out the surprise was nothing at all is most often simply a disappointment.

[Eliot Clef]

Firstly, it introduces the additional possibility that there will be no antagonists at all, making it much more irrational to be paranoid/metagame an assumption of hostility from antagonists.

Irrational, from... which perspective, though? Characters ICly don't know about roundtypes, and OOCly, voting for secret only to find out the surprise was nothing at all is most often simply a disappointment.

 

The reasoning behind this proposed change is that not knowing what might happen will decrease instances of metagaming. Under the current suggestion, there is no scenario in which a Secret vote does not result in hostile entities (antagonists) on the station, and therefore while metagaming may become less clearly defined as opposed to being aimed towards a specific known adversary (creating EMP grenades to deal with when the Malf AI goes loud) there is no reason for it to decline completely. People will know for a fact that there will be antags, and they will continue to act on that knowledge.

If there is a possibility that, "Oh boy, what's going to happen this round?" can be answered with, "Nothing.", then metagaming is less internally justifiable to the actors who are doing the metagaming (the players). It offers doubt.

Having said that, I don't think making us Secret or Extended is actually a good solution. I don't think it'll stop metagaming at all. My suggestion is a mediocre hedge within a mediocre hedge, partially intended to preserve Extended as a game mode that actually occurs if this suggestion is taken seriously, partially to introduce doubt.

[Frances]

I can respect the reasoning, but I don't think it would work so well in practice. Antag rounds have enough variety that it's difficult enough to anticipate exactly what could happen (is it nuke ops? Lings? The cult? Traitors that could do pretty much anything?) Adding a 5-10% chance of "nothing" won't really do much to curb players' expectations in comparison, because it's still a very slight chance of nothing happening and would likely get glanced over.

[CampinKiller]

I would prefer just hiding the vote totals and keeping the round type as "Hidden" once the vote is completed, without announcing the outcome.

Another server (Apollo to be exact) does just that, and while I can't attest to the affect it has on metagaming, as I don't play there often, I'm sure it helps.

[Chaznoodles]

Leave it as is.

[JKJudgeX]

I would prefer just hiding the vote totals and keeping the round type as "Hidden" once the vote is completed, without announcing the outcome.

Another server (Apollo to be exact) does just that, and while I can't attest to the affect it has on metagaming, as I don't play there often, I'm sure it helps.

 

I actually really like this alternative suggestion a lot. It really is more about not knowing more than anything. I mean, I know we want to give other players credit for not metagaming/validhunting specifically tuned to the roundtype because they're supposed to be better than that, but the reality is that a great number of players are not better than that, and they are alive and well and deceptive. I find it hard to believe that you guys have never been meta'd to death on Aurora...

[Guest Menown]

Hidden or not, the second any evidence of anything comes out, the meta happens. It's just a matter of when, not if.

[JKJudgeX]

Hidden or not, the second any evidence of anything comes out, the meta happens. It's just a matter of when, not if.

 

That's not really relevant. This suggestion wasn't proposed as a magical meta-killer...

It's a meta-reducing, pro-RP position.

If I give you a phone battery that lasts 20% longer, you still have the problem of a phone battery that runs out. You still want that battery tho.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

While I approve of the goal (reducing meta), this is a clumsy and inelegant way to modify the voting system. There was a thread not so terribly long ago (pardon my not finding the link, but I'm simply too sick and lazy right now) suggesting randomly selecting a round type weighted by the votes and then simply not informing the players what the round type is. This would have the same effect of reducing meta, but without removing the ability for the players to vote for a specific desired round type.

[Carver]

I would prefer just hiding the vote totals and keeping the round type as "Hidden" once the vote is completed, without announcing the outcome.

Some people prefer not to play certain rounds. Varying from person to person, it can be something like nuke, secret, extended, or the rare voted-in changeling or cult. You're giving the middle finger to people who would prefer to avoid certain roundtypes because they aren't enjoyable to that person, and isn't the whole point of this all so people have fun and enjoy themselves?

[hivefleetchicken]

How about we just lynch the power gamers.

[Carver]

How about we just lynch the power gamers.

Okay Hive, put your head through the rope.

[Guest]

How about we just lynch the power gamers.

Okay Hive, put your head through the rope.

 

BREAKING NEWS: 12 AURORA REGULARS FOUND HANGING DEAD NEAR THEIR COMPUTERS

[hivefleetchicken]

If I'm gonna' do it

I'm taking you with me

C-cocksucker