Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[Jboy2000000]

Yes, friendly competition is all nice and well, it even has "friendly" in the name, it's cute, it's wonderful, EVERYONE loves friendly competition. But do you know what competitions have? Competitions have RULES. What happens when people break rules? Well, ideally they're punished, or scolded. A loop doesn't absolve anyone of anything, if you break a rule, you should be punished.

If human nature excused anything, well, there is a lot of stuff that goes against human nature, stuff I won't get into here because this conversation could get philosophical and long and annoying very quickly, and this isn't the place for that.

[Skull132]

There are two ways to play ling, and any individual antagonist role:

• Personal approach -- this is the one you speak of. You take your time with individual targets, you interact with them, etcetera. Nothing wrong with it, but it's just an option.
• Force-of-nature approach -- this relies on actually making yourself a threat to the crew, and interacting with the crew more, than with the individual victims. You make yourself large and proud, and you generally do this through ambushes like this at the start, as you need to gather strength somehow.

 

If the antagonists used the advantages they gained through this maneuver to create further roleplay that round, for the rest of the crew, then I'd say the rules requiring roleplay to be involved were fulfilled?

[Dumplinz]

this is Ridiculous, In what way are you suppose to get your "rp" before being killed? "hey i'm going to kill you..." then blam?

What are you expecting out of the interaction, You didn't walk down the hallway and get shot and they just moved on, they lured you to a room where you were killed because they were Antags, which you shouldn't even be in the room as the HoS. You have to essentially be dead in order for the lings to impersonate you.

I don't honestly believe you have a solid argument of the correct way this situation could have been roleplayed out. For a second, Before spouting off nonsense about the rules in black and white instead of their Intent, Think of what could have reasonably been accepted to you as roleplay where you end up dieing.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[Jboy2000000]

You say if, and that makes me apprehensive. You don't KNOW they did that, but it sounds like you were already ready to completely absolve them. And, I like your force-of-nature thing, like the example you gave once where a virologist slowly exposed certain people to the virus in interested ways. I liked that because thr way you put it, it involved individuals, AND the station, in a way that made itself interesting, and well known.

What did the above do? They called two people in a secluded area, and killed them. They didn't make themselves known, they didn't do anything interesting for the station, they didn't even interact with the individuals.

[Jboy2000000]

For a second, Before spouting off nonsense about the rules in black and white instead of their Intent, Think of what could have reasonably been accepted to you as roleplay where you end up dieing.

 

In short, exactly the opposite of what you two did. I would have actually interacted with whoever I was targeting, and I certainly wouldn't have lured people with no foreknowledge or interaction, and then shank them to death instantly. Because, no matter what, that is something that SHOULD be against the rules. And, now that we're back on the subject of black and white rules again.

 

Being an antagonist does not exempt you from any server rules.

[Skull132]

What did the above do? They called two people in a secluded area, and killed them. They didn't make themselves known, they didn't do anything interesting for the station, they didn't even interact with the individuals.

 

Wrong. You know nothing of what happened before or after. You only have a snippet of maybe about 5 minutes of gameplay. The standard length of a round is 120 minutes. If you are willing to make a judgement of, "They broke the rules and were shit!" based on 5 minutes of gameplay, then so be it. But I'm not. However, because you and a few others were going all doom and not actually interested in what happened afterwards, I felt it necessary to start from that end, lest I be called out for "Overlooking player feedback."

[Dumplinz]

It isn't Reasonable to assume that everyone is going to play Not powergamey and immedietly radio in they are being attacked and by Whom.

It is easily relateable that security often shoots or threatens to shoot in situations where they realistically wouldn't be able to due to the mechanics of the game.

Here's why your Argument makes no sense: You are a target that can be justified killing and/or Being Absorbed, clear? With that being said:

Because you can be killed we are talking about how you get killed. You do not gain plot armor just "because"

You were not randomly killed. You were targeted, and ambushed, quite brilliantly really, To be able to lure the HoS out of security.

Just because you might have acted in a certain way doesn't make it reasonable to assume people will do exactly how you handle situations

I get you walked into a room, and were subsequently killed, and that sucks, But it logically makes sense why that happened, are you not getting that?

If you want people to take your side of view you are going to have to explain how logically the situation should have gone. Because what you are saying now, as skull said, Makes antags being a thing impossible(or rather, Changling as a role, impossible)

Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[Susan]

I have mostly myself to blame for this; I entirely forgot the double-edged sword of everyone and their mother whinging when security kills people without roleplay, but when antags do it its valid and fun.

This was moreso my fault than anyone else's - in my time away playing an actual heavy roleplay game, I forgot the core mechanics of SS13 - assume everyone is awful and out to kill you at the first chance they get. Had I remembered the age-old adage I lived by I would have called the sec borg or something. Since administration isn't interested in enforcing the quality of roleplay, then I have to ensure the safety of my own enjoyment.

To answer your question, Skull, I would have preferred they not target me at all because there was no reason to outside of 'lel murder'; there was no chance they'd be discovered via forensics, and there was no chance anything would come to fruition other than an engineer being the suspect, presumably. I don't entirely blame these players, of course. I mean, they were bad and terrible antagonists, but Changeling in of itself is a mode not intended for heavy roleplay because it is entirely centered around ganking as many people wordlessly as you can.

But like nuclear it will continue to be around and drag everything down, so whoops.

[Jboy2000000]

It isn't Reasonable to assume that everyone is going to play Not powergamey and immedietly radio in they are being attacked and by Whom.

 

So just because you think someone is going to break the rules, you want to preemptively break the rules, so they don't break the rules?

 

Here's why your Argument makes no sense: You are a target that can be justified killing and/or Being Absorbed, clear? With that being said:

Because you can be killed we are talking about how you get killed. You do not gain plot armor just "because"

You were not randomly killed. You were targeted, and ambushed, quite brilliantly really, To be able to lure the HoS out of security.

Just because you might have acted in a certain way doesn't make it reasonable to assume people will do exactly how you handle situations

 

This... This reminds me of something...

 

 

I get you walked into a room, and were subsequently killed, and that sucks, But it logically makes sense why that happened, are you not getting that?

If you want people to take your side of view you are going to have to explain how logically the situation should have gone. Because what you are saying now, as skull said, Makes antags being a thing impossible(or rather, Changling as a role, impossible)

 

I actually have already, let me go back and find it since you either missed it, or 'missed it.'

 

In short, exactly the opposite of what you two did. I would have actually interacted with whoever I was targeting, and I certainly wouldn't have lured people with no foreknowledge or interaction, and then shank them to death instantly. Because, no matter what, that is something that SHOULD be against the rules. And, now that we're back on the subject of black and white rules again.

 

Let me ask you a question now. If security planned something like this out, and then wordlessly lasered you to death, would THAT be against the rules?

[Dumplinz]

It's not against the rules to radio in who is attacking you, and then scream for help/with the location etc..

Killing them because this is believed to be the likely issue isn't against the rules. (this is for the "they walk in on you blatantly killing someone in the act" as a changling)

You don't seem to understand. Because they Can justify targeting and killing you, how would you have RP'd the situation resulting in your death as a changling Please do not use empty words like "interact" and believe that is a quick enough explanation. What is the Interaction you speak of where you as the HoS end up dead, and absorbed, What is the degree of "RP" you were looking for in this situation, in detail. (you don't have to answer this, but I don't think you're going to get a change in the mods/admins decision if you do not).

Security are not antags, and are not suppose to kill and absorb people, your question is irrelevant.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[Jboy2000000]

Killing them because this is believed to be the likely issue isn't against the rules. (this is for the "they walk in on you blatantly killing someone act as changling")

 

Tell me, when did they walk in on you doing something that would justify them calling for help? You didn't give them anything to call for help about, you didn't have a reason to kill them, they didn't have a reason to see you a threat, you were not treated as a threat. You, answer me now, how were they in any way, shape or for a threat to you that needed to be killed then, there, and now, in the way you did?

To answer you question, I would NOT have lured the HoS, detective, or anyone other security member, or anyone at all, just for the express intent purpose of slitting their throats without talking to them, or interacting with them in anyway as you did. What would I do as a changeling? I would lure them someplace by more extensive means. Someone my changeling looks like has a friend? Hey bud, lets hang out! Im security? Sir, Im going to need to bring you to the brig and take your radio. Im an engineer? Well, that's a fun person to be. You have weapons at your disposal, endless and endless amounts really, you can make so much, and you have reason to always order more plastic, wood, metal, everything you can make weapons from. You can knock people out, cable cuff them, and their radio using abilities are gone, they are no threat. But how can you do that? Well. You, as an engineer can you your very own stun baton with metal rods, wires, wirecutters, and one, single battery. Disabling them would have been just as easy as ganking them. Thats not just There are plently of fun, constructive ways you can play with your targets, AND keep yourself safe. Instead, you lured two people into a room, and slit their throats instantly, so you could have your DNA.

Now that you have that answer, let me ask you one more thing. How did what you do, garner any roleplay for someone who wasn't already a ling? Did you consider that before you killed them? Did you put any thought into the enjoyment of others before going on to kill them?

[Dumplinz]

...Really? The threat is allowing the entire station to know there is a changling/Antag that is attacking the crew. The person in question was the RD, which was to be absorbed and impersonated. The reason to see me as a threat was I was killing their boss.. You don't have an argument to stand on here, unless you argued to remove Changling as a whole, but that is a different story. There is an expectation they would report to the crew what they saw, and a very unlikely way of forcing them to stay silent without killing them.

Getting on topic: You can't answer the question, because you believe you shouldn't have ever been killed in the first place. Though i was not the changling in your senario, the obvious answer you keep skipping: Killing you to absorb and impersonate the HoS can easily be the explanation You say "extensive" means, Another buzzword adding nothing to the conversation, congrats. Your argument is they lure you there as a "friend" they already killed, to kill you? You want Changlings to... "knock people out" to what end? they are knocked out. Now they are locked away somewhere, not apart of the game until they are found. Like your argument, there is no logical reason for a changling to take a hostage.

OR you hilariously think locking them up as a security officer is a better solution. so they are out of the game because you lied, and that's fun for them. Do you hear yourself? your reasoning is absurd which leads me to believe you are just complaining to complain.

Everyone isn't going to enjoy an antag round, That's the nature of an antagonist sometimes. Adding to the Roleplay is for the station, not every individual.

Seriously though, it's crazy to think all your senarios proved the point i was making, You remove people from the game one way or another, regardless of whether you keep them alive, and in every one of those senarios all you are doing is using the Changling's abilities from which he has to kill and absorb people to use. Ridiculous.

[Jboy2000000]

Except you completely and utterly missed every single point I was trying to make, or purposefully ignored them. I asked what made THEM a threat. In that exactly moment, what made those people you PURPOSELY led to a dead body a threat to you? If you didn't want them to be a threat, don't purposefully make them a threat so you can kill them. They couldn't have known or told ANYONE. But you went out of your way to lead them to the body, and make them a threat to you.

I also didn't mean knock them out and leave them, I mean "knock them out, make it so you can't use their radio, and then actually put effort and making sure they enjoy something before they die, like a good antag should." Yes, dying suck, but dying is a part of the game! Does that mean everyone forever should go out of their way to do something that would give YOU an advantage at the cost of others like you did? Absolutely not.

[Dumplinz]

They saw the killing take place, in a storage area, which they were not lead to

I don't know how much more it can be spelled out for you. This is very irrelevant to the topic at hand. so feel free to delete this mods, but maybe this will help Jboy understand.

How could they NOT have known or told anyone? They Saw it happen. it's very easy to type ;say ___ is killing ___ in the radio.

Didn't lead the second person there purposefully, so you're just blantantly wrong there, Unless you are talking about the RD, in which case I did it to absorb and impersonate them to create a senario in which the rest of the station could enjoy.

[Jboy2000000]

They saw the killing take place, in a storage area, which they were not lead to

 

Evidence/logs/etc: Gank Incident:

https://gyazo.com/03e1070824fb35b3d78f899f837c8956

https://gyazo.com/1741e4de049f40b46d06f57c1d8ee9b4

What occurred here was that Security was called to a crime scene involving a dead officer. I, respond, along with the Detective. The group of engineers who were lings show us the scene, and then, without a word, or anything, shove us down and attack us, and kill us without any remote amount of roleplay other than the initial 'Hey, we've found a body' (which they actually had).

 

???

 

How could they NOT have known or told anyone? They Saw it happen. it's very easy to type ;say ___ is killing ___ in the radio.

https://gyazo.com/03e1070824fb35b3d78f899f837c8956

https://gyazo.com/1741e4de049f40b46d06f57c1d8ee9b4

???????

[Dumplinz]

I'm referring to the incident I was involved in, hence why I stated earlier I was not one of the lings I'm your senario

[Jboy2000000]

So, basically nothing you said has any baring at all on anything that happened in this scenario?

[CampinKiller]

What? We never saw anyone kill anyone. We were literally called there. Now, onto what Skull had asked.

 

I'm curious (though 90% of what I wanted to write was already written by Dumplinz and Hive just now), and so, do answer me this question.

Let's say the engineers lure you into a place where they can take care of you. In the present situation, they just offed you the moment they have you enseird. Now, let's say hypothetically, they didn't. The situation is frozen at where the engineers met up with sec. What would you have had them do, in order for your deaths to be "valid"? Or would you have they just not target you at all?

And as a note for all of you "By the books" folks. Ambushes are not mentioned at all in the rules. Just because something isn't outright permitted by the rules, doesn't mean it can be blanket denied. Antags would turn into a laughing stock if they had a silly quota of me-ing and monologue-ing to fill out before they could off someone.

As for the EOR incident.

Were the other effects of going loopy via CMD played out as well, prior to that fact? Or did it kinda just, go from 0 to max on the shuttle?

 

For it to not have been them blatantly ganking us, I'd have extended the RP, or at least done something more than showing us a place and wordlessly attacking us. Hell, we weren't a threat to finding them out or anything at the time, as they'd been all over the crime scene, and we told them that. What I would've done was let us examine the scene, and head off, and then call us back down a little later and say they'd found something of interest. At that point they would've actually roleplayed some with us, instead of calling us to an actual crime scene, then wordlessly killing the two of us. The incident reeked of blatantly playing to win and killing for the sake of 'lel, we need more than the people we've killed, so let's gank.' From what I was told by the actual CE player, they literally wordlessly ambushed him 10 minutes into the round. How either situation makes the round interesting and actually involves roleplaying with the victims, I have no idea.

As for CMD, Price became very moody, aggressive, and was having a case of anxiety. He'd actually already beaten and aggressively subdued the prisoners prior to the beating on the shuttle that spawned from him 'resisting.'

[Dumplinz]

oooh boy, Jboy got me, He's right, I wasn't there. You gotta be there to call people on their terrible reasoning, yup.

I'm supprised we have judges that JUDGE people based on not being at places where incidents take place!

Everyone pack up, This guy is far too smart, no way you can form an opinion based on what someone is talking about, nope. Good luck everyone, hes too smart for me anymore.

[SierraKomodo]

I'm going to mention that during this round, one of the antags in question, Rin Fukuimoto, was involved in reported gank 3 times in one round. The first incident, she flashed the CE without a word, dragged him into maint with the other two engineers, and they killed him without a word. She was given a warning not to do it again by a mod, who left before the second and third incidents (I know this because I could still see ahelps at the time)..

The second incident was the HoS/Detective ambush which has already been brought up and discussed, and Garn handled. The third incident? Rin knocked over Trucy Faraday, dragged her into the brig restroom, and killed her without a word as well. Garnascus response to that when I ahelped it and said that was literally the exact same thing she was just warned about at the beginning of the round? 'When your permabrigged, everything is valid' or something to that effect.

I really have a problem with staff taking stances like that to incidents that clearly violate rules and would have warranted action by staff members a few months ago. What changed? I know Skull told us the other day that 'Its newcode, we can expect people to do this', but is that really a valid excuse? To just let people start breaking rules, and watch the station degrade to medium/low RP levels of fuckery 'because lel newcode'?

[Gollee]

If I remember correctly, Rin is currently sec-banned for powergame/gank shenanigans too.

[Garnascus]

#RINDIDNOTHINGWRONG. Well no, she kinda did. She got warned for the first instance which was a gank. second instance is valid. Third instance is also valid. She got permabrigged for double homicide and in walks one little cadet? If we could start focusing on things the non-antags did wrong that would be great....

[CampinKiller]

Please explain, then, how the ambush that involved no rp prior to the killing of two people is not gank, and how non-antags did anything wrong in that scenario other than expect to actually be roleplayed with?

[Jboy2000000]

Garn, you say the other two events were valid, but very, very obviously a big portion of people disagree. With good reason. I didn't want to bring up the past, but you are the single most controversial admin to ever grace Aurora, a total of eight complaints against you. You're quickly becoming the Techno of staff. Every single of of your complaints stem from you making poor decisions, poor calls like this, before you were evena real admin, people were complaining about exactly this kind of thing since you were a trial mod.

[hivefleetchicken]

Garn, you say the other two events were valid, but very, very obviously a big portion of people disagree. With good reason.

 

The portion in favour of your argument is you, CampinKiller, and SueTheCake.

The portion in defense of Garnascus is Garn, Skull, Dumplinz, and me.

So you're just flat out wrong. :Y

 

I didn't want to bring up the past, but you are the single most controversial admin to ever grace Aurora, a total of eight complaints against you. You're quickly becoming the Techno of staff. Every single of of your complaints stem from you making poor decisions, poor calls like this, before you were evena real admin, people were complaining about exactly this kind of thing since you were a trial mod.

 

I think you're due for a removal.

Feel free to ask me why I think this is the case.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Guest