Data13's unban appeal

[Data]

BYOND Key: Data13

Total Ban Length: 24 hours

Banning staff member's Key: SueTheCake

Reason of Ban: Reason: Continued argument in ahelps after being told to stop on several occassions; ghosted as a traitor immediately when caught because was obviously angry things did not go his way. Dayban. .

Reason for Appeal: I tried to take hostages in the bar. My actions:

Coming to the bar.

Announcing that i will kill everybody if they won't get down on the floor.

Aiming the gun at the civilian person sitting at the bar table.

After that a bartender went for his shotun, though there were a multiple civilians between me and him, and aimed me. I started shooting. Why would bartender try to reach for his gun if there are multiple civilians in the room, and the person who is threatening to kill them is aiming one right now? Isn't it a powergaming? It's like a bartender is some kind of superhero, who doesn't afraid to go with his less-than-lethan gun for a person with a deadly laser who is aiming one of his customers in the head.

I tried to ahelp, because i considered this situation a bit powergamish (like every hostage situation that happens here on Aurora in my experience - no one ever tires to negotiate or has any regard for their or others' lives). I explained the situation, and Sue told me, quote:

 

You aimed a gun at someone who aimed their weapon back at you. You fired first. You broke the stand-off. You prompted security to return fire on you. No one shot at you or pulled a gun before you shot at the barman. It was just a stand off until you shot.

TrialModerator PM from-SueTheCake: This is an IC issue. This argument ends here.

 

She was wrong, because bartender reached for his gun BEFORE i aimed him, and done that after i announced my threats and aimed at random bar's customer. I tried to explain that Sue is wrong, that i haven't done anything before bartender aimed me, a person armed with deadly gun aimed to the head of civilian person, but shortly i received a 24 hour ban.

Again, she said

No one shot at you or pulled a gun before you shot at the barman.

I tried to prove her wrong - bartender pulled a gun at me before i started shooting, but got the 24 hour ban.

Log:

 

Unknown shouts, "EVERYBODY ON THE FLOOR, NOW, OR I WILL BLOW YOUR FUCKING BRAINS OFF! NO FUCKING RADIO!"

Unknown aims an energy carbine at Winston Carton!

Avelak Nirisha rests his webbed hands on the counter, nodding and listening to Vince. "He is EVA trained, I would ho--

OOC: A Runaway Turtle: ....Shit.

Unknown says, "DOWN"

Winston Carton says, "....Are you fucking kidding"

Avelak Nirisha aims a double-barreled shotgun at Unknown!

((Your character is being targeted. They have 2 seconds to stop any click or move actions. While targeted, they may drag and drop items in or into the map, speak, and click on interface buttons. Clicking on the map objects (floors and walls are fine), their items (other than a weapon to de-target), or moving will result in being fired upon. The aggressor may also fire manually, so try not to get on their bad side. ))

Unknown turns the energy carbine on Avelak Nirisha!

You fire the energy carbine!

Avelak Nirisha is hit by the laser in the head!

Avelak Nirisha's face melts away, turning into mangled mess!

The energy carbine is not ready to fire again!

Avelak Nirisha [145.9] says, "Security."

Unknown (as Avelak Nirisha) talks into the radio headset

You fire the energy carbine!

Unknown (as Avelak Nirisha) is hit by the laser in the head!

 

I know sometimes a very brave shop owner can pull a gun when his shop is being robbed. But pulling a less-than-lethal gun as a bartender om a person have a hostage and is threatening to start killing people - isn't that a little powergameish? And after that some civilian picked my energy gun and blew my hands off while i was cuffed. Of course i ghosted. Space Jesus!

There should be some kind of addition to the rules or SOP that explains how people should act in hostage situation, because this is getting ridiculous.

Thanks!

[Susan]

You were banned because you continued to argue and rant in adminhelps even after being instructed at least three times to drop the issue.

The barman was an off-duty security officer. You walked into an area with 3 weapons trained individuals; the barman aimed his weapon at you. You responded by firing at him with the intent to kill. This prompted the rest of security to pull their guns and shoot at you.

And now rather than realize where you were wrong you come here to continue to argue about the situation that was quite clearly handled ICly; you went so far as to ghost almost immediately after the alteraction. I'm of the opinion this ban should stick.

[Frances]

Okay, this is civil. I can work with this.

Two things. Firstly, it was an IC issue. You decide to walk into the bar, which is full of people, and brandish a gun. The bartender pulls a gun on you - you get into a mexican standoff. Nice situation, much RP. You can also shoot the bartender before he has the time to reach for his gun - justifiable - but expect to be dropped by whoever else has a weapon at that time.

Was it shitty of the bartender to reach for his gun? Not necessarily. Storeowners do that - though usually not when the robber is aiming them down with their own weapon. Maybe the bartender had a bad day - and it gives you full right to gun them down for being an idiot at that point. But here's the problem - the more people are involved in your hostage situation, the more variables there are to control, and the higher the chances are of something getting ugly.

It's sort of a shitty situation: pull gun, get gun pulled on, shoot dude down, get shot down by other dudes. Much shooty, no talky. But I'd say this is mostly a case of picking your battles (or non-battles) better - when you decide to hold up an entire room of sec officers, you're setting yourself up for a risk.

Secondly, about the ban. You were told repeatedly (at least twice) that this was an IC issue, and despite that, and being informed that there were other avenues through which you were to discuss this, you kept arguing via adminhelp. This is why you were daybanned.

Edit: And I got ninja'd by Sue u_u

[Data]

You were banned because you continued to argue and rant in adminhelps even after being instructed at least three times to drop the issue.

The barman was an off-duty security officer. You walked into an area with 3 weapons trained individuals; the barman aimed his weapon at you. You responded by firing at him with the intent to kill. This prompted the rest of security to pull their guns and shoot at you.

And now rather than realize where you were wrong you come here to continue to argue about the situation that was quite clearly handled ICly; you went so far as to ghost almost immediately after the alteraction. I'm of the opinion this ban should stick.

 

First of all, i do have a right to make an appeals. It's kind of sad to see admins tell me that "And now rather than realize where you were wrong you come here to continue to argue about the situation that was quite clearly handled ICly". You said "No one shot at you or pulled a gun before you shot at the barman." - i tried to explain that i was being aimed before i pulled the gun on a bartender and got a ban and no answer. Of course i continued my rant here on the forums. I don't excatly think that you are wrong, but of course since you are admin, i respect your judgement. It does not agree i can't argue about it - that's what this forum is for.

Secondly - seems like every player has some kind of military background and is an off-duty superhero or a military officer. That's kind of weird, isn't it? And when i go gosting it's my own business, isn't it? I was, like, 6 AM, and i decided to have some sleep. Well, then i had to make an appeal here. And now it's time to go to work ;_;.

Anyway, my point is - hostage situations never get any RP here - at least in my experience (not only as a person who is taking hostages). It always goes haywire when a one of civillian - an off-duty space spetznaz/Own Man superhero guy starts trying to take the situation in his hands, while endangering lives of other people. That's not how civilian personnel of the station should act. But again, everyone seems to have some kind of military background, so it's always okay or "we'll add a note about this to his profile, but it's mostly an IC situation that a civilian person who's being aimed on disregarded his own safety and tried to do stuff". And nothing ever improve. And we have constant influx of a new player too, which doesn't help the situation. To avoid this situations and "raging" ahelps not unlike mine, there should be some guidelines for hostage situation, addition to the rules, SOP, or whatever. Some nice RP situation can happen from taking hostages, and, since antags here don't get much targets, hostage situations do have some RP'ish perspectives.

Anyway, thanks for your attention. I can definitely live with 24 hours ban.

[Data]

Was it shitty of the bartender to reach for his gun? Not necessarily. Storeowners do that - though usually not when the robber is aiming them down with their own weapon. Maybe the bartender had a bad day - and it gives you full right to gun them down for being an idiot at that point. But here's the problem - the more people are involved in your hostage situation, the more variables there are to control, and the higher the chances are of something getting ugly.

I never heard of situations like that. Maybe you have some examples in mind, when there were hostage taken, the person who took hostages is standing right next to one of them with a deadly gun pointed to his head, threatening to kill everybody if they don't get down on the floor, and while he is staying like that with a hostage, another person casually walks a few meters, takes his shogtun and aiming it on the criminal, while he's still holding a gun next to a person's head, and when there are few people nearby and between the person with a shotgun? And when said shotgun is loaded with beanbag round, which is basically an LTL round consisting of a cloth filled with lead shot, which can be shot accruately for about five meters, no more. All while the criminal has his lethal gun's barrel next to the head of a hostage. If this person was with a military background, he should've known that beanbag round probably won't even hit, and surely won't prevent a criminal from firing the round in the person's head. Of course i haven't killed the person, since when the situation goes haywire like this, there's no point on wasting time to kill the hostage - no one cares about his life, obviously, and i didn't want to ruin some random person's round. That's exactly why i made this appeal and why i think this is not only an IC issue. Think about it, what would you do if you were on bartender's place? Especially if you were an off-duty security officer, whose duty is to protect the crew of the station, and who definitely knows that that energy gun pointed at the hostage's head is set on kill. Would you reach for your shotgun, armed with less-than-lethal rounds, consisting of a cloth bags that do have horrible ballistic properties and can't fly straight unless shot point blank? I don't think so, especially if you are sane person and an off-duty security officer.

I've never heard of a situations like that. Why would anybody risk life of a person this way? I mean, seriously? Defending your store from a criminals while they are trying to rob you is completely different story.

I probably should've behaved differently, but when i saw a person who walked a few meters and reached for the gun while a criminal was holding the gun right to hostage's head, it didn't seem to me that he's a huge fan of talking.

Next time i'll use a gun and a bomb. And when some janitor (off-duty deathsquad, of course) will try to disarm me with his mop while i'm holding one finger on the detonator and have gun aimed on his head, we'll talk about IC issues .

Again, thanks for your time!

Edited November 10, 2014 by Guest

[Frances]

I've never heard of a situations like that. Why would anybody risk life of a person this way? I mean, seriously? Defending your store from a criminals while they are trying to rob you is completely different story.

Some clarifications - according to Sue, you originally aimed your gun at the detective - which is when the bartender decided to make a move for his shotgun. Thus, totally justified, given your character was distracted ICly, and not in a position to stop the bartender immediately.

 

Anyway, my point is - hostage situations never get any RP here - at least in my experience (not only as a person who is taking hostages). It always goes haywire when a one of civillian - an off-duty space spetznaz/Own Man superhero guy starts trying to take the situation in his hands, while endangering lives of other people. That's not how civilian personnel of the station should act.

Except the bar was filled with security - and the bartender's shotgun pretty much exists literally for these situations. Granted, it would be more common for it to kick out aggressive drunks than actual hostage takers, but it is a self-defense weapon, that is perfectly validated in use for any situations in which an aggressor enters the bar with clear nefarious intents.

As for the logs, go ahead and present them? I'm not sure what they prove, you were told very clearly twice that the matter was an IC issue, and not to be discussed via ahelp anymore.

[Data]

Some clarifications - according to Sue, you originally aimed your gun at the detective - which is when the bartender decided to make a move for his shotgun. Thus, totally justified, given your character was distracted ICly, and not in a position to stop the bartender immediately.

 

I aimed gun at some random person sitting at the corner counter, sipping his drink. Maybe he was a detective, still, i had my gun aimed to his head and two seconds passed.

[Frances]

Some clarifications - according to Sue, you originally aimed your gun at the detective - which is when the bartender decided to make a move for his shotgun. Thus, totally justified, given your character was distracted ICly, and not in a position to stop the bartender immediately.

 

I aimed gun at some random person sitting at the corner counter, sipping his drink. Maybe he was a detective, still, i had my gun aimed to his head and two seconds passed.

That does give enough time for anyone else to grab a weapon, should they wish.

[K0NFL1QT]

I was there when this happened, so I think it's justified me weighing in. I spotted your character in the hall, with no ID and a gasmask on to mark them as 'Unknown', dragging a wrapped parcel behind you. I chased you from the medlobby to the bar, hitting the "HALT! SECURITY!" hailer as I followed. You ignored it and ran into the bar, where you aimed a gun at some barfly and ordered us all to get down and not make radio contact. As ordered, nobody touched their radios.

Now, to clarify, there was a Detective right outside the door with easy access to their revolver. I was the Head of Security, only a few squares away, with an energy pistol in my bag. There was the barman with the shotgun, plus the doctor and the guy you locked down with your gun. Yes, you had a hostage, but two of the three of us who had weapons and weapon training had a clear shot at you. We didn't immediately fire because you had the civilian in your scopes. The barman is entirely justified using their weapon to end conflicts in the bar area, and although they put their aim on you they did not fire. You fired first in reaction to having a gun pointed back at you. You elevated it out of a hostage situation into a fire fight by shooting first, before anyone had chance to speak.

In about two seconds there would have been three guns on you. How would you have reacted to that, then? I doubt you would have surrendered, as someone probably should when a stand off goes three to one. I suspect you would have just doubled down on your threats, like so many hostage takers. In which case, we probably would have taken our shots at you to neutralize your threat after a bit of posturing, unless you specifically maneuvered the hostage between yourself and all three of us. You didn't. You shot the barman in the face. They closed their shutters while me and the detective took you down. Once you were tazed, I cuffed you.

Now, the doctor who joined in after you were detained was plainly out of order. They apparently had no weapon training, nor reason to start firing into a defused conflict. They picked up your dropped weapon and shot at you while I had you in cuffs, but shot me, the Head of Security, in the chest with a laser rifle and then shot your characters arm off with a revolver before themselves getting stunned. Afterwards they said they had no idea the conflict was over, or that there were any Security present, despite it being quite plainly obvious.

Personally, I don't think the situation warranted a ban, but I didn't see your reaction to admin intervention. It was a botched hostage attempt with a well trained and armed presence in the crowd. Nice try, but no cigar. What sucked is that you immediately ghosted, which I would say is really bad form on a Heavy Roleplay server. "Oh shit, Sec busted me. I'm done with this round".

[Erik Tiber]

Now, the doctor who joined in after you were detained was plainly out of order. They apparently had no weapon training, nor reason to start firing into a defused conflict. They picked up your dropped weapon and shot at you while I had you in cuffs, but shot me, the Head of Security, in the chest with a laser rifle and then shot your characters arm off with a revolver before themselves getting stunned. Afterwards they said they had no idea the conflict was over, or that there were any Security present, despite it being quite plainly obvious.

I know I am not involved in this matter at all, but I seriously think behavior like that warrants either a character or player complaint. I've observed behavior like that happen many times before (although this is somewhat hypocritical of me)

[Data]

Erik Tiber, thanks for your input. For your information, with a powerful gun, especially one using bullets, one shot is enough to blow hostage's head off completely, making cloning unavailable. Also, if a person aims on somebody or is using special action that makes him prepare remote signaler to send a signal to blow up a bomb, no matter what happens to this person - stun, death or anything - will still make his finger twitch by reflex and make a shot/blow up a bomb. No matter how much armed security officers there, the hostage will die and be rendered uncloneable/bomb will go off. Not many people care about that, and, like you, 95% of players will attempt an armed rescue if they feel confident, without any regard for hostage's life, which makes hostage situations and RP they can produce almost impossible to play out. I tend not to use that, when other players don't seem to want to help me play it out, because nothing good will come out of it, and at least one person's round will be ruined.

I think hostage situations can enrich RP experience on heavy RP server like an Aurora. Like i suggested, it would be nice if there'd be some addition to SOP or CR about hostage situations. How security should act and such. Even when security's actions result in a dead body, no one seems to care, and admins say it's an RP situation. Don't know how it's done in spess, but IRL police forces won't try to "shoot now talk later" when a criminal's finger is on the trigger. Dunno how it's done in Murrica though, i heard your cops are pretty harsh.

Anyway, when security's rescue attempt results in a death, no one cares and there are absolutely no consequences to the person whose actions resulted in a death of a hostage. This seems a bit unfair.

I think guidelines should be added for such situations, based on IRL procedures. If server staff would be interested, i can try to find some material, though, as you can see, my Engrish is simply terribad (from russia with love <3). There should be some reprecussions for a spontaneous rescue attmept resulting in death of a hostage for a person who failed it and/or acted not accordingly to guidelines. Like a 3-day security job-ban, or something like this, it's an RP server after all.

Don't think i'm raging or something, i just honestly think hostage situations can enrich RP on our favorite server, especially for antags and security. I saw and participated in quite some situations like that in Aurora, and they go trainwreck most of the time. Security have no idea how to act, and antags are twitchy and unsure if their RP atempt is going to be supported or not and expect to be powerplayed by sec or just a passing assistant (former war hero deathsquad ert spetsnaz operative) with a toolbox.Probably that should go in suggestions, but i decided to post it here, since it semms to be kind of relevant.

Thanks for reading my post ^_______^

Edited November 10, 2014 by Guest

[Valkrae]

I'd like to chime in and state that Data wasn't banned for the situation that happened.

He was banned to how he responded to Sue's intervention. Sue repeatedly asked him to cease the argument, however, Data continued to argue over the ahelps.

I was a witness to this situation, and can vouch for Sue about the incident.

[Data]

I'd like to chime in and state that Data wasn't banned for the situation that happened.

Errr... Yeah, you right... It's explained in the OP-post, in the "reason" section.

[Jennalele]

Alright, I've got some input here. It's more along the lines of how to improve said hostage RP if you expect to be taken seriously. I'm going off a specific tactic here that could have been another way to approach the same bar hostage situation you attempted yesterday.

One. Don't rush. When you run into the room with your gun out, screaming, almost everyone in the room with a weapon is going to go for it out of gut instinct. Walk in casually, sit down and wait. Blend into the buzz of patrons.

Two. Evaluate your surroundings. The examine verb is your best friend. After you stroll in, casually looking like a part of the crowd, if you realize that the room you're in happens to be chock full of security, both on and off duty, perhaps you should find a better mark elsewhere.

Three. Numbers. As Skull said, the more people in the room there are, the more unpredictable variables you'll have set out, and the more likely it is that chaos will break loose like a rampant bald during a prison break. Like the golden rule of Nuke Ops, you want to keep it simple. When the number of hostage takers to hostages exceeds a 1:2 ratio, you're gonna have a bad time.

Four. Shit happens. Things don't always go to plan. People get disarmed, people get flashed, people shoot the wrong people sometimes. One of the most important things to keep in mind is that this is a game- We're all in it for the fun. If you're playing just to win, you may want to rethink your strategies as an Antag. To add to this, though, ghosting the second things go south for you is incredibly poor form, and more along the lines of a griefer's behavior than a proper antag's. The fun doesn't stop at the arrest- I've seen some incredibly interesting situations rise from antags and prisoners being transferred to permabrig, solitary confinement, and the like.

It's understandable that people want their plans to work out without a hitch, but that's rarely the case, to be honest. This applies in general, really, but if one considers their job done at the time of their plan's execution, it might be a good idea to step back from antagging for a while and try to re-evaluate what the role is on the server. All in all-- Remember that the goal of an antagonist is not just to "Win" at their decided tasks. It's to engage the crew in fun and RP. This is just as much the antagonist's job as it is the crew involved, in many cases!

[Guest]

Additionally. When considering to create an awesome traitor situation where you hold up the bar and whatnot and expect to get out, you had better follow these steps to survive. Professional criminals do this all the time.

1. Know your surroundings. Before deciding to capture the captain or hold up the bar with a lethal weapon, it's best if you scout the place out and look for optimal entry and exit points. Perhaps an electrocuted vending machine can work to your advantage if you manage to hack it to shoot lethal electrodes. Maybe the bartender is visiting the chemist for a short bit, so you can steal his shotgun that he left in the bar. Are there areas where security can enter when you don't want them to?

2. Pick your battlefield. Unless you're armed with a combat shotgun, hiding in a maintenance tunnel with no way out is a very bad move. Remember to use cover to your advantage and perhaps even set traps as a plan B if something goes awry, or even if that was part of your plan all along.

3. Remember to be subtle. Subtlety is not killing all members of the bar without any RP. Subtlety is sending a very clear and understood reason as to why you're committing the crime, and telling witnesses that you yourself did it. It'll be something to remember.

4. Be properly equipped for the situation. Consider yelling at chemistry or R&D to make smoke/crude flashbang grenades for you. Or, make them yourself if and when you have the access. It's always good to have a backup plan.

5. When in doubt, ask for help. And by this, I mean ahelp, primarily. Clearly and concisely tell the staff what you want to do as a traitor and they'll definitely attempt to assist you in fleshing out the flaws in your plan. Note that they don't directly give you the objective. They're merely there for inspiration and guidance to be a better antagonist. ICly, I would recommend asking for help from your 2d spessman friends. If you have any. They'll usually assist you if they have something to gain from it. Oh yeah, that brings me to my next point.

6. Have a damn good reason for what you're doing, some sort of backstory as to why you're holding up a bar, for instance. Are you slowly becoming disillusioned with the corporate dealings of NanoTrasen? Are you a planted agent of the Sol Alliance? Or do you have a debt to pay to a criminal syndicate, a debt not easily bribed out of.

Consider the latter. Remember, being an antag is about making the round fun for everybody, not just necessarily winning. But if you can be robust and someone who can think on their feet, you'll be making grounds for being a great antag.

[Erik Tiber]

I'm just wanting to make clear that I take absolutely no stance with respect to Data's conduct, only that of the doctor. Who really should get an actual thread, I mean this utterly literally, because stuff like that should be made an example of. Also, Jennalene's advice seems rather good. Hostage taking is probably difficult and require careful planning.

[Data]

Thanks for your advices, Jennalele. I try to act exactly as you described, but, like i said here multiple times, it seems that lives of a hostage don't give criminal ANY leverage. Sometimes the hostage will rush and try to disarm you with bare hands, without any regard for his life, and sometimes security officer who was walking nearby will just rush in, knowing that his actions WILL result in a hostage deaths. My problem is with that mostly, forget the bar situation, which, i admit, is not an example of flawless planning, i'm talking about lack of players' regard to life in generally. Every time i observe or participate in hostage situations i observe the situation going trainwreck because someone does not respect Aurora's rules - act like your character woild realistically act, no powergaming, no metagaming.

[Valkrae]

I noticed, right off of the bat with this situation, that you did not have the upper hand at the beginning of this hostage situation. You were outnumbered, and more importantly, outgunned. If I saw someone take hostages, and I had a shotgun, you'd better believe I'd take the shot. As well as, there were multiple off-duty officers in the bar. There was also a Security Borg wandering the hallways just outside of this whole event.

[Data]

If I saw someone take hostages, and I had a shotgun, you'd better believe I'd take the shot.

 

Yes, that was not the best situation for me (the bar one). But, like i said, you should understand - if a person is aiming at someone or is using special action that prepares remote signaler to send signal to a bomb - the shot WILL go off and the signal WILL be sent even if you oneshot the person - it's called a reflex shot/signal (the finger on the trigger will twitch if a person is attacked - it's a game mechanics). So you just said that if you'd have a shotgun (or even bartender's one loaded with beanbag shot, which is not very effective) - you'd try to take a shot, which would automatically result in a death of a hostage (an uncloneable one, if the hostage is aimed on with a revolver/shotgun with battle ammunition), even if you stun/instakill me. I don't think i support your decision - it'd ruin a round for at least one innocent person (or more, if there is a bomb) who could be possibly remain unharmed, it'd prevent a possibly interesting RP situation, and you certainly would be fired if there's a good HoS/Captain (at least that's how it's done on some of my favorite NON-Heavy RP servers) . But it's your decision, and i respect that, of course.

Thanks for your input, Valkrae!

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'm going to go with everyone else on this one. Sounds like you signed your own death warrant here.

[Guest]

Ban's expired, things were learned, everyone made it out of this thread happy...

I can definitely call this resolved.

[Frances]

I left it open because there was some discussion still going on, but yeah, locking.