Throw "no antag inclusion" for incident/CCIA reports into the garbage

[Guest]

With some exceptions. We should be able to file reports on non-antagonist characters who act unjustifiably shitty regardless of antag involvement. The rules prevent you from knowing what a wizard does come next round anyway, and you would be very quickly hit with the discipline stick if you screamed "OH SHIT NUKE OPS" in IC despite our rule against metagaming. If they clearly and willingly did something against procedure that did more harm than good, we should be able to report them. Antags are completely excluded from IC reports, in that you can't report an escaping cultist for being a cultist in an incident report.

Take for instance: A security officer finds a cult book in the possessions of a trespasser. The sec officer immediately proclaims it contraband despite the fact that it's a dusty old nondescript tome to the average onlooker. They whine and bitch about an IAA chewing them out and calls them a hobknocker. The player of the IAA wants to keep this IC and report it so it's dealt with, in IC. But instead, we have arbitrary guidelines currently existing that do absolutely nothing but further exacerbate the problem characters and allow them to get away with shittiness.

Corrupt sec officers, vigilantengineers, self-antagonizing civilian staff and terrible docs/scientists have found a way around your system, DOs. They act all well and good until a valid antagonist appears, in which that's their excuse to be as borderline awful as possible in IC, completely ignoring the premise of roleplay standards and existing consequence. I say this unironically, they don't deserve that privilege at all. People. Need. To roleplay. Reasonably.

As our loremaster has said countless times before, all antagonists are canon within the lore. Specific player-characters that are rolled to be antagonists for one round, are not canon antagonists in the state of the lore progression.

I'm really tired of having to be told repeatedly "hey if you don't like it file a character complaint" because the DOs refuse to do anything bold or fail in trying to push forward IC standards. I am not after the player for roleplaying, I am after the character for acting like an uppity asshole.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

I'd have to agree. Of course, antags should never be the subject of IRs, but we should be able to have them in the context of the report, even if only referred to as, 'the criminal,' or 'the prisoner.' It would still be more helpful than excluding them 100%

[Gollee]

Then file player complaints. Anything DOs touch through IRs is canon. If we touch antag incidents, we give those morons rope to gain meta-knowledge, and I don't want to open that kettle of fish; it'll just start a whole new host of issues.

We can canonise low level incidents, and just alter details to exclude antags, but we can't act in significant antag zones; unless you want people like the above unnamed security officer to have precedent and grounds to act like she knows about cults, etc.

[UnknownMurder]

If I am able to propose an amendment.

Stating antagonist involvement are permitted as long as:

The Antagonist is a:

-Traitor (with little or no antag items)

-Revolutionary (since they don't usually use uplink)

Filing a complaint due to malpractice or careless because of Wizard, or Changeling, or Heist which would be a giant no as they bring a big change to the round and would be unfair to file a charge on them as they can change the 'mood' of the Security.

You cannot label, "He had an Emag Card." You can label, "He had somewhat a card that opens everything." Keep it somewhat cryptic.

After filing a complaint form, you are prohibited from remembering or bringing the issue, known items, and whatever happened in the round, etc.into the station as it appears to be meta-information. You are expected to roleplay as you would normally.

Some rules along the lines. I hope everyone knows where I am getting at. I am neutral, but security should have high professionalism when dealing with all antagonists.

[SierraKomodo]

After filing a complaint form, you are prohibited from remembering or bringing the issue, known items, and whatever happened in the round, etc.into the station as it appears to be meta-information. You are expected to roleplay as you would normally.

 

This wouldn't be possible. The incident has to be canon in order for CCIA to actually have taken action on it. It'd make 0 sense for CCIA to investigate an issue that everyone's prohibited from remembering even happened.

[UnknownMurder]

It does makes sense to me. Just don't bring your knowledge to the game and forming a fork, a dual character...

Also, you haven't explained why this isn't 'canon'. Let me reiterate this in another way.

Unknown the Antag takes Sierra's laser gun.

Officer Sierra beats the crap out of Unknown.

Officer Mofo steps in, and calms down Sierra while filing out a complaint.

Footnote: If this is not canon... Then, they choose not to report to the staffs. Thereforth, making this suggestion invalidated.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

It's completely possible to do it like it was done with the antag contest, in which all action was canon. Where necessary, just fill in a John Doe. Our setting is rife with corporate espionage and security incidents. There is a reason that a science station has a fully stocked armory filled with lethal weapons. This game and the entire concept of SS13 is that we're working on a dangerous tin can in space surrounded by rogue mercenary groups, corporate spies, syndicate agents, and horrifying space monsters! And at least lore-wise all of them are canon, and there's a precedent - I've been picking and choosing major antag events to canonize for awhile now and it's been going on at a good pace. No one's screamed at me yet anyway

Being involved with an antagonist should not allow people to get away with being poopoo supreme. Roll a random number generator for the antagonist's name and continue on as necessary. DO's should be trusted to be intelligent enough to work out when something is good enough to roll with, and it's easy enough to ask myself and admins (probably admins but hey im available) on whether or not something can reasonably be called canon.

I mean our CEO Miranda Trasen target of a canon terrorist attack on the Aurora, and lived to see tomorrow because she's a changeling.

I think we can give DO's wiggle room.

[Susan]

Don't like it.

Mainly because in about 90% of antag scenarios, the threat is high or unreal enough that standard procedure has to be ignored entirely or circumvented to deal with it.

[Gollee]

What Sue said. It's too easy for people to write things off as "But I had to because of the antagonist" and because we do interviews instead of log-delve or observe; we can't gainsay them on that.

[Lucychan42]

I agree with Sue, as well. There isn't a standard protocol for "holy fucking shit someone is bombing the station/some guy is eating people and shapeshifting/what the hell is this guy a wizard or some shit/etc." And frankly, because the rounds aren't canon that means it's always a surprise, something the characters haven't ever seen before. Imagine never experiencing an act of terrorism and suddenly you're trapped on a station with a who-knows-how-equipped terrorist that's skilled and deadly enough to kill multiple people. You'd freak the hell out in most circumstances; sure you can be strong and do your job, Aerianna is terrible with containing her emotions but she does her job well regardless.

There's only so much that can be reasonably done. Do I think there's things worthy of punishment? Yes. An incident where the warden and half of security harassed a doctor for forgetting soporific was extremely unprofessional of them, and I wish a report could have been filed for that. But there are also situations where it's more reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt regarding having to contain or survive supernatural and/or hostile forces.

tl;dr Some slack should be given for situations that are essentially hostile and unknown scenarios.

But. All staff, security, engineering, medical, service, command, research, they should be held accountable if they react in a way that escalates or worsens the situation, or otherwise fail to do their duty in a way that is extremely negligent. A security officer being on edge and being a bit flash-happy is fine, to me. That same officer harm-batoning anyone who threatens them is not okay. An engineer messing up the engine? Don't let him set it. An engineer opening vented areas with no regards to the damage to other station areas? He should probably have a nice long talk about how pressure works. Medical staff that fails to respond to a situation? If it was dangerous, well duh, they don't have defense and bringing a saw isn't exactly in character for anyone. Same medical staff charging into a hostile situation with a saw? Remind him what security is and what his actual job is supposed to be.

I can keep listing them but you get my point. There should be some leeway but if neglect of duty or unnecessary escalation results, some effort should be into keeping the situation as "there was some terrorist on the station but security was so on edge the honestly did more harm than the terrorist." Aerianna has had canonized events but I just keep it so vague that nobody can gain any useful knowledge other than Aerianna's own experience. Either that, or she has dreams about the situation. Of course, she never learns anything from them; she doesn't ever know what a "Nar'Sie" is or that vampires are real. But she does have the baseline concept of "okay that's not normal, what's going on" that most characters have, if not further.

tl;dr 2: Some situations should warrant a report, and it is entirely possible to keep it vague. Aerianna calls traitors "Terrorists", the existence of Xenobiology could rationalize some antagonists existing but those involved are ordered to keep silent or hell, wouldn't surprise me if NT had a way to alter memories and erase them entirely to avoid a panic once the situation was resolved. Two birds with one stone, yeah?

[Guest]

What's the point of the DO corps if it completely forbids itself from being involved with something that's a core part of the game and is the centerpiece of the round, then? What can DOs do that administrators can't?

[Gollee]

We deal with behavior that doesn't quite require admin intervention, as well as consistently poor characters. We also deal with some events and most faxes. We are a canon entity with IRs, otherwise we would end up with players declaring our judgements non-canon, or trying to gain meta-knowledge from antag interactions.

Everything has a drawback or a limitation, this is the DO one.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

why are we arguing that none of our characters deal with any traitors. Multiple high-intensity rounds have been canonized as happening with everyone involved being a part of it.

1) Miranda Trasen was the target of a bombing that killed 9 people. She boarded as a changeling.

2) A tour group had someone arrested for being a spy.

3) A diplomat was detained and sparked riots on biesel.

4) It is established in the basic lore and setting that these things happen all the time.

I repeat that using lore (that i'm in charge of?) to argue against this is a fallacy.

 

tl;dr Some slack should be given for situations that are essentially hostile and unknown scenarios.

 

When the police shoot an innocent person during a stressful situation, they do not get a free pass because it was a 'stressful situation'. Yes leeway exists, but this leeway is what we're arguing to give DO's. Our characters in security and medical are meant to be professionals and trained to deal with a crisis. This means that they can deal with a crisis. Dealing with a crisis is what people trained to respond to a crisis are trained to do. If they fail to respond to a crisis despite their training to respond to a crisis and instead just act like total poopoo supreme then they should be handled IC if the situation is one reasonable enough to have in an IR. There is complete backing of the lore to explain why the station deals with spies and enemy agents so much.

 

the existence of Xenobiology could rationalize some antagonists existing

 

All antagonists exist. All antagonists are canon. Cultists exist off the station even during extended rounds. Changelings have infiltrated the corporation and a variety of governments and society. vampires roam around even on extended, off-station. The wizard federation is a game faction that no one has knowledge of, but it exists.

[Skull132]

Alternative: adjust the DOs reaction as necessary, and get them to actually take context into consideration.

Chasing textbook execution of an arrest whenever half the station's blown up is unreasonable, so, don't do it. Take into consideration the situation, the stress the character is put under, and go from there.

[SierraKomodo]

Alternative: adjust the DOs reaction as necessary, and get them to actually take context into consideration.

Chasing textbook execution of an arrest whenever half the station's blown up is unreasonable, so, don't do it. Take into consideration the situation, the stress the character is put under, and go from there.

 

Except DO's can't even do that. The report is immediately shot down as 'There was an antag, close it'.

[Skull132]

Alternative: adjust the DOs reaction as necessary, and get them to actually take context into consideration.

Chasing textbook execution of an arrest whenever half the station's blown up is unreasonable, so, don't do it. Take into consideration the situation, the stress the character is put under, and go from there.

 

Except DO's can't even do that. The report is immediately shot down as 'There was an antag, close it'.

 

Well, the suggestion is to change that, and what I described would be a way through which to actually make the change possible.

[Guest]

Except DO's can't even do that. The report is immediately shot down as 'There was an antag, close it'.

 

That's the point of this thread. DOs are effectively irrelevant from a gameplay standpoint because 9 out of 10 rounds that are voted in during the day are rolled secret, which is a high probability for antags. That means there's above an 80% chance that the DOs will not be able to deal with any tangible IC nonsense for the day, even if incidents are fairly valid but become waived because a wizard was smack in the middle of it.

The DO corps immediately becomes a fluff position where its only responsibilities are pretending that Central Command has any lee-way or effect on the station's personnel and being an overglorified fax jockey, when you consider that almost every primetime round during the day is a round with an antagonist, and something they can't deal with even if the antagonist is not the primary focus of a report.

To iterate my points:

 

• Unless the focus of the report is on reporting the antagonist for their antag-like behavior, all behavior from non-antagonist crew members is to be taken into account and investigated as IC canon.
• Exceptions apply in the instance that the round effectively ends in a complete disaster, in which off-the-books conduct would be more or less acceptable if it meant the life of the crewmember in particular. E.g., when the station just turns into swiss cheese due to singular or combined efforts of antags to cause chaos. These rounds would be reasonably considered not canon, though.

[Susan]

Can we literally not have 'mass murder changeling wizard bombs exploding' as a typical shift for stations.

Because it literally would become one.

If we canonize interactions with antags, then I fail to see how we combat metaknowledge. If I'm part of an IR on Ana after shotgunning a shapeshifting people-eater, how am I supposed to just forget that if its made canon.

[Filthyfrankster]

It'd be strange for one officer who defended the station from vile nuke ops to see them attack again twenty rounds later and be all "Fuck, Well. I know how to deal with these guys." and pull every trick in the book because they 'Encountered' them before.

nah

No thank you.

If antags are involved, the round should NOT be canon unless it's something like that one AI who was 'legit' malf, kek or a silly event.