Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[Brayce]

BYOND Key: Brayce

Staff BYOND Key: Garnascus

Reason for complaint: Perceived misuse of Admin powers.

Evidence/logs/etc: I don't have logs of the events leading up to it, but bad shit happened, and I did a stupid, and ended up dead as a result. My issue begins with the events after my death. I don't have logs for this part as SS13 crashes if chrome is open, and I receive a Staff PM. I got dead. I was raging in D-chat when Garnascus came in, and asked if I wanted to be a construct. I was mad after getting exploded and I don't like dying, or killing others If I can help it so I said no. Then I scroll over to see my body disappeared, and I soon see the reason why. The body got turned into a construct. Which couldn't of happened since there was no ghost in it except.. there was? I asked dead chat was told cultists could do that normally, but I had some doubts so I ahelped it.

http://prntscr.com/bql1rl

And got

http://prntscr.com/bql2a5

The rest of the conversation.

http://prntscr.com/bql31i

http://prntscr.com/bql471

http://prntscr.com/bql4li

http://prntscr.com/bql4vf

I then waited a while to see if anyone else would respond, but they didn't. That being said it was a hectic round people were killing and dying left, and right so many people might've been ahelping with other issues.

I talked to Serveris6 about it after ahelping again requesting someone other than Garnascus respond, but after a few messages he asked me to hold on for a moment, and didn't answer back for the rest of the round. Feeling like my options in discussing it with staff then, and there have run out I'm making this complaint. My question revolves around my feeling that Garn misused his admin abilities to bus another ghost into my corpse to further his own Antagonist goals, and denying me the option, and possibility however slim to reenter the round as that character as a non-antag. Is this usage of admin abilities typically allowed to further antagonist actions they themselves are personally perpetrating upon the crew? I don't know, and couldn't get a concrete answer from any of the staff online.

Additional remarks:I have a personal distaste for Garn's style of play when antaging, and while I might not agree with that style. It is no less valid within the rules than the style I try to follow. That has unfortunately colored my perception of him, and in turn this complaint. For that, and the salt I extrude when dead, I apologize.

[Garnascus]

So, a bit of a backstory in the few minutes before i killed you. I had just blown up the armory and dispatched a secborg who came looking around. I notice you near the armory but you turned around and ran as soon you saw an angry tree geared in tac armor and a laser carbine. I figured it was fine to leave it at that. I Headed back toward the armory to find you there, i aimed my saber at you which was loaded with lethal rounds. I did a /me *tendrils of frost points to the ground*. You did a /me *oliver roadman holds up the shotgun*. Seeing you chose not to surrender a small firefight broke out between us, i of course fired the first shot however.

You retreated back into the armory and constructed walls preventing me from getting in. Unfortunately i had a bomb in my bag which i used to breach the area and kill you. My intent originally was just to convert you, once you resisted i opted for turning you into a construct. You chose to opt out of becoming a construct and ghosted. Personally i dont like that but a lot of staff think its ok, and their reasoning isnt invalid. I engaged a fight with you with the goal of adding to the cultist armory in SOME fashion. So when you explicitly declined in dead chat i asked fellow staff members in msay if they where up for being a construct. Itzal, a retired admin said yes so i used VV to add his ckey into your body and do the deed.

Their is definitely a lot about this situation that will raise eyebrows, i will attempt to explain why i think its ok for me to do this.

Criticism 1 You denied Brayce any chance of getting cloned just because he didnt want to be a construct

This was brought up by you in your original ahelp, frankly i have never believed that anyone is entitled to being cloned. I have always been very critical of kills becoming washed away because cloning exists. My philosophy has always been that if a kill is valid; meaning it doesnt break any server rules, then i dont mind what steps a player takes to ensure that the individual Stays fucking dead. Its controversial, i get that. You have to understand though we are a heavy RP server with antags. If you opt out of playing ball with certain antag actions, like declining being a construct i do not think its fair to complain when i make sure you do not come back from the dead. There is a mere thirty minute respawn timer, you can join as another character and play.

Criticism 2 You used your position as an admin to further your goals ingame

This one is trickier to defend, because at face value its correct. I have the privilege of being an administrator for this server. That allows me access to verbs and information the average player just doesn't have. I have in the past found replacements for others that decided to ghost instead of becoming a construct. At the very least i am consistent, anything i would do for myself i would always afford other players. Still though, that takes time for the average player. I am an admin myself so i could just do it myself in this instance. Should i have gone through another admin just like another player? probably, yeah. We had serveris on at the time who could have done it. I felt at the time that there was no issue with what i did. To me it was simple, "theres an open spot for a construct".

Finally, i want to offer a rebuttal to your dislike of my antag play. I know i do not make many friends with the way i play antag. I love this game the best when shits blowing up, people are scrambling trying to save dieing crew, changelings are threatening to eat the other half of the station, nuke ops murder all of command. I love high action, high death, and incredibly tense situations. It makes sense i attempt to bring this out in my antag play and for the most part i think i succeed. People die though, a LOT of people die when i antag. In this situation i at least communicated my intentions with the other cultists and made them aware of exactly what i was going to do. I gave the message many times and all cultists had multiple chances to tell me to fuck off and wait. If im going to go loud as a team oriented antag i have to have everyone else with me.

[Skull132]

First, regarding general perms usage:

• Don't influence the round in favour of one side or another without a valid RP reason (Specifically antags v crew)
• Don't give yourself an advantage you would not reasonably extend to another player
  
• Don't disrupt the course of the round in a major way without a vote
  
• If at all possible, for stuff that affects you in the round, see about getting the actions you want to undertake reviewed by another admin first

 

From what Garn just said in his reply, the last rule was broken, as Serveris was around. Though how active, I do not know at the time. While the rule can be ignored if no other administrators are active, it should not be ignored in any other case. It's not a formality, it's procedure.

Secondly, the, "Make a construct and render the body uncloneable," spiel just sounds like a dick move on all fronts. And admins are kinda suppose to be the example of, "Hey, these guys aren't awful dicks." Granted, ghosting to deny a soul stone might be considered a dick move as well, however, since the situation originated out of combat (and was a bonus), it's not that bad in my opinion. Were it a well roleplayed out conversion, or something else of that line, then yeah, Garn would have been in the right. But this seems sketch to me as well.

[Bedshaped]

Finally, i want to offer a rebuttal to your dislike of my antag play. I know i do not make many friends with the way i play antag. I love this game the best when shits blowing up, people are scrambling trying to save dieing crew, changelings are threatening to eat the other half of the station, nuke ops murder all of command. I love high action, high death, and incredibly tense situations. It makes sense i attempt to bring this out in my antag play and for the most part i think i succeed. People die though, a LOT of people die when i antag. In this situation i at least communicated my intentions with the other cultists and made them aware of exactly what i was going to do. I gave the message many times and all cultists had multiple chances to tell me to fuck off and wait. If im going to go loud as a team oriented antag i have to have everyone else with me.

 

I don't like when you antag as Tendrils for pretty much the exact reasons someone brought a complaint against another Rambo Diona: http://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6207

If you did what you do on any other species I wouldn't care either as long as it's not gank.

I thought we changed the way Diona can have complete instant understanding of combat too.

Edit: Yeah it was changed... so what does this mean for Antags?

 

EDIT: It is no longer allowed for Diona to engage in combat as non-security (Unless its self defense), Diona will also not be allowed to know how to combat unless they are security, According to our Lore Dev, Killer. As such this scenario will never happen again.

[Dreamix]

If you did what you do on any other species I wouldn't care either as long as it's not gank.

Psst. Antags are off-limits. Antags can do anything, as long as it's not really stupid. Antags (and antag Dionea) can even know every department and be trained in martial arts. Just imagine they're trained operatives, not some random employees.

But, yeah. OOC tools (BST, spawning items) should not be used to influence any IC-stuff, unless the round is still in the OOC phase (like the nuke ops who are still on their syndie-base).

(But who I am to judge, considering that repeatedly flying through the station as a BST, not really doing anything but annoying the fuck out of the crew, is okay for some particular people.)

[Skull132]

Mkay, I've had some time to think about it.

I'd say that in this particular instance, the act of pulling another ghost in to be the shell was a bad move. Why? Because the shard was, in this case, used as a tool of opportunity. Garn was fine with making the body uncloneable, specially if Brayce refused being turned into a construct (consider it a fair exchange), but then taking someone from ghostchat and putting them into the shell is just bad form. Not only because it's subverting the game's mechanics, but because it's also an unsportsmanlike move, in my opinion.

[DatBerry]

I think garn deserved to get a construct, he RP'd it out, he won the engagement, but couldn't get it because brayce ghosted, ghosting is forfeiting your right to continue playing that character the whole round, since not even cloning can bring you back once you ghost out of cryostorage, so the unclonable part isn't really a valid argument in my opinion.

But i also think he should've asked serveris first, if not, he has other IC methods to get a construct, like manifesting ghosts.

[Nanako]

As much as i hate cult, i'm on garnascus side here.

Becoming a construct is something cultists can force you to do, if you opt out of the willing choice to resist or join as a cultist.

Constructs are supposed to be nonconsensual, and opting out of it is kind of unsporting

Its an unresolvable issue that the player can't actually be forced to do anything, so replacing the construct seems like a perfectly reasonable fix

[DatBerry]

will be moving to archive due to inactivity, if you wish for the complaint to be re-opened, PM me or another staff member.