Too much robust gamemodes.

[TrickingTrapster]

I feel like if I don't post it now I'll never do it so here goes. I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE cult, merc and raider rounds, purely because (most of) their appeal is solely based on "fuck up the station in some way". There is almost zero way to do these things peacefully. Especially since rounds take two hours and people that don't like the gamemode go cryo the second they find out. I'll go ahead and split cult from the other two and adress them seperately, to what I think are the huge issues with them.

So, merc and raider. I have less problems with raider than merc, because raiders have to get /somewhat/ creative on how they go about their objective and i HAVE seen them go well, but that's like 3% of all raider rounds. Merc is basically just a bunch of traitors given guns and saying "fuck it, we're shooting up the place". I know there's a little more to it than that, but I have to ask how this is considered engaging and creating fun for the crew? Mercs try to get as far as they can, get spotted, firefight ensues, either the mercs and a lot of the crew die and it's over, or the mercs get to the nuke and it's over. How is that engaging for anyone except the mercs, sec, and the occasional hostage? Might as well call the evac shuttle on the first sighting, it'll be over sooner that way. As for raiders, eh, they do it better, but still end up in waaaay too much firefights.

Now, the big one. Seriously, fuck cult. I hate it I hate it I /hate/ it. People do not check certain antag boxes for a reason. So getting converted when you didn't is entirely pointless since you will have A. no idea how to play cult and waste their effort and time put into it or B. cryo because you don't want to be an antag and make both the effort the cult put in worthless and waste all the time they spent setting you up for it. Now on to my second problem with cult. Why is it so irreversible ICly? I get that it's mechanically possible with the chaplain, but currently that ends up with one of three situations. Either the chaplain is a cultist, there is no chaplain, or the chaplain has no idea he can do that. Seriously, over the last, say, 20 cult rounds, how many deconversions have been made? I have never seen a single one. Maybe make it a little more obvious? There is currently no way to resist being converted, other than dying and getting soulstoned ANYWAY. My last gripe with cult... Why in the holy mother of memesus is it in secret rotation? This may be a little personal, but I hate it so much when I find out it's a gamemode I hate so much I go to cryo and have to wait for round end because it stresses me too much to play. At least merc gets voted every now and then so I won't even have the incentive to join, but when it's secret and raider and cult are in the rotation at least 3 out of the 5 rounds I can play are usually raider or cult. Maybe RNGesus hates me but this is getting ridiculous how much cult is popping up.

The fixes? Imo, either remove them from secret rotation and replace them with fun things, or better yet, up the possibility of a more fun gamemode (rev is not too bad but still not my favorite, vamp, ling and malf AI are meh and can end badly but don't have to, and wizard is just a great round because people finally realized that blowing up the station in the first 20 minutes is NOT the way to go. Traitor is basically extended anyway with a few scraps here and there.). Or, alternatively, please shift the focus from the robustness of "kill sec and we win" to something more RP-focused. Right now it's just build-up to a battle and from there it's play to win. I came here to roleplay, not play call of duty. (Okay sorry that was uncalled for but still.) Sorry for ranting, but I need to put this out there. I'm playing less and less because these imo cancerous gamemodes keep popping up.

[Chaznoodles]

Blame the players, not the gamemode.

[HouseOfSynth]

Agreed, it's a little unfair on those who want to play and not get rekt.. For example, one of my characters personality goes /completely/ against antagging.. Hence the reason I don't queue them for anything that directly makes them an antag.. So, they get shoved on a convert rune in the usual cliche way and I'm practically forced to die. I don't really get annoyed with dying in-game, but being forced into antag is just a little unfair since if people don't queue for it, chances are they don't know it or just don't want to play it. Cult also ends in either murdering a bunch of people, or the station being in disarray for extended periods of time.

Merc and heist? Well.. The problem I have found is people running out of ideas for gimmicks.. So they resort to the usual "try and stealth and kidnap someone for ransom" routine, and often fail.. So people end up dying, bombs get blown up and generally it doesn't involve most of the crew.. Perhaps a way to fix this is to add some randomised objectives on the "You are a merc/raider" screen as suggestions? You don't have to follow them, but if you have no clue what to do then it's something stable to fall back on.

But yeah, I think it is a problem and needs to be addressed in some way that pleases the majority.. Perhaps even adding some more gamemodes themselves? Since some are pretty stable such as cortical borer, being a good example..

[TrickingTrapster]

The players would improve if incentive would be taken away from "be as robust as you can to win". Like, really, the big appeal of merc and raiders is "you get free guns to shoot with". Getting the wrong vibes for a RP-centered game imo. Cult forces people to RP things they don't want to RP. That's just a no in general.

[nicemoreoften]

I feel like if I don't post it now I'll never do it so here goes. I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE cult, merc and raider rounds, purely because (most of) their appeal is solely based on "fuck up the station in some way". There is almost zero way to do these things peacefully. Especially since rounds take two hours and people that don't like the gamemode go cryo the second they find out. I'll go ahead and split cult from the other two and adress them seperately, to what I think are the huge issues with them.

So, merc and raider. I have less problems with raider than merc, because raiders have to get /somewhat/ creative on how they go about their objective and i HAVE seen them go well, but that's like 3% of all raider rounds. Merc is basically just a bunch of traitors given guns and saying "fuck it, we're shooting up the place". I know there's a little more to it than that, but I have to ask how this is considered engaging and creating fun for the crew? Mercs try to get as far as they can, get spotted, firefight ensues, either the mercs and a lot of the crew die and it's over, or the mercs get to the nuke and it's over. How is that engaging for anyone except the mercs, sec, and the occasional hostage? Might as well call the evac shuttle on the first sighting, it'll be over sooner that way. As for raiders, eh, they do it better, but still end up in waaaay too much firefights.

Now, the big one. Seriously, fuck cult. I hate it I hate it I /hate/ it. People do not check certain antag boxes for a reason. So getting converted when you didn't is entirely pointless since you will have A. no idea how to play cult and waste their effort and time put into it or B. cryo because you don't want to be an antag and make both the effort the cult put in worthless and waste all the time they spent setting you up for it. Now on to my second problem with cult. Why is it so irreversible ICly? I get that it's mechanically possible with the chaplain, but currently that ends up with one of three situations. Either the chaplain is a cultist (this cannot happen)

, there is no chaplain, or the chaplain has no idea he can do that. Seriously, over the last, say, 20 cult rounds, how many deconversions have been made? I have never seen a single one. Maybe make it a little more obvious? There is currently no way to resist being converted, other than dying and getting soulstoned ANYWAY. ghosting allows not being soulstoned, though an admin will probably ckey someone else in to play as a construct My last gripe with cult... Why in the holy mother of memesus is it in secret rotation? This may be a little personal, but I hate it so much when I find out it's a gamemode I hate so much I go to cryo and have to wait for round end because it stresses me too much to play. At least merc gets voted every now and then so I won't even have the incentive to join, but when it's secret and raider and cult are in the rotation at least 3 out of the 5 rounds I can play are usually raider or cult. Maybe RNGesus hates me but this is getting ridiculous how much cult is popping up. i like cult myself, but i believe it should be down a little: 99% of my antag rounds are cult.

The fixes? Imo, either remove them from secret rotation and replace them with fun things, or better yet, up the possibility of a more fun gamemode (rev is not too bad but still not my favorite, vamp, ling and malf AI are meh and can end badly but don't have to, and wizard is just a great round because people finally realized that blowing up the station in the first 20 minutes is NOT the way to go. Traitor is basically extended anyway with a few scraps here and there.). Or, alternatively, please shift the focus from the robustness of "kill sec and we win" to something more RP-focused. Right now it's just build-up to a battle and from there it's play to win. I came here to roleplay, not play call of duty. (Okay sorry that was uncalled for but still.) Sorry for ranting, but I need to put this out there. I'm playing less and less because these imo cancerous gamemodes keep popping up.

 

Don't really support this as I've seen great things come out of these modes, but I think adding a youth timer (such as those for heist and merc) for cult/rev could go a long way.

Edit: Here are my thoughts on the mentioned gamemodes.

Heist: Can be done well. I actually agree that there's a bit too much of a focus on robusting, because they get some of the best gear for killing (you can attack while cloaked, whyyyyyy) but not the best gear for stealing things (ONE BACKPACK?)

Mercenary: While mechanically they are much stronger than the heisters, they have the disadvantage of being instantly noticed as hostiles due to their military gear. Has improved since "nuclear emergency" and the addition of contracts and the antag contest, allowing more than "kill everyone".

Cult: The problem with this, I think, is that many people don't enjoy playing cult and just resist every conversion attempt. This results in a forcecult (bad) or a murderbone (worse) cult.

[TrickingTrapster]

Yes, if I have to rate the three, cult is the worst, merc in the middle, and heist is the lightest. I only occasionally play a raider round because I know it can be done well(only to be disappointed 30 minutes later) but I /always/ nope out of a cult because I KNOW I'm not going to enjoy it. The easiest solution as I see it is taking it out of the secret rotation, not sure how many people will agree. As for merc, it actually never happens unless voted on at which point I decide to play something engaging instead like MGSV.

[Ron]

Honestly, my two favorite gamemodes are Heist and merc. Cult can be removed for all I care though. I love being a merc/heister, playing against mercs/heister, and seeing mercs/heisters' in general. I've seen a lot of good gimmicks, and a lot of funny moments. Just need a good team that aren't shittlers, and most of the time if they /are/ shitlers they die by security, ERT, greytide, etc. Honestly, the only thing I could really suggest for merc is to make them have to get the code somehow other than spawning with it. I would say put it in the blue safe in the vault during merc rounds, but it is extremely impossible to get into that vault without an hour of work and knowing what you are looking for. Off topic, but I hate voted extended; I won't play if its voted extended. I'm fine with secret extended because there is that feel of "Something can happen" even if nothing does.

[Garnascus]

strongly disagree. In fact this game is at its best when the antags ARE NOT peaceful. Not having your antag preferences checked is fine but you have to remember you are playing on an RP server with antags enabled. you cannot opt out of all situations related to antagging. Its just not really possible. I dont quite understand why you think it should be removed from the secret rotation. It seems to me its just because "theres no way to do it peacefully" and "you dont like it". Which is fine, but you cant expect us to cater stuff just because someone doesn't like a thing.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Aurora is High Roleplay with Antags. Unchecking your antag boxes means you dont spawn as that antag but by joining an antag round or secret round you are accepting the unspoken agreement that you will participate in the round. If you don't then you can cryo. What you are wanting is to turn being a bad sport into an actual mechanic.

[Guest]

All of these game modes can be done in the worst ways, or in the best ways thought possible.

It's always been a user-input issue, and not an issue with the product itself. Unless, that is, you'd like to suggest something credible to go on and make changes around?

[TrickingTrapster]

I'm fine with consenting to some antagging, and on the face of it, the concept of merc and raider isn't too bad, but the incentives given to the players that spawn as said antags is just a little off imo. You spawn in a ship full of weapons, how would you not think to go loud from the word go? There are zero incentives for the mercs to interact with the crew other than sec, and even that is often just the firefight and the occasional hostage. Maybe have some official forged inspection documents spawned in so they can go around the departments taking high-end items as they inspect and no one watches? Something that /isn't/ a full-on gun but can be useful in stealing things from the station, like a shrink ray to size down shield generators, emitters or even the nuke and put them in your bag, making the crew wonder where they went? Just throwing ideas out there but I think spawning with only guns and combat gear isn't exactly putting players in the right direction for crew interaction, you know, the entire point of antags.

Also, the main reason I hate cult is the forced conversion thing. They get you on a conversion rune? It's over. You're either cult or dead. So that means either taking players out of their intended character or out of the round. Which is just a bad mechanic in my opinion. Maybe give the chaplain some extra tools to defend themselves or find out how to stop the cult? I mean, even if security catches a cult in current cult rounds, how much incentive do they have to call the chaplain on that? Even if they know runes are involved? The chaplain is /never/ called. Maybe make the chaplain a little more active in cult rounds? He's supposed to be pretty important, but the only time I see them taking part in it is when they die to it.

[Guest]

Also, the main reason I hate cult is the forced conversion thing. They get you on a conversion rune? It's over. You're either cult or dead. So that means either taking players out of their intended character or out of the round. Which is just a bad mechanic in my opinion.

 

The narrative of cult is not about the individual, it's about the collective narrative that's being driven. The moment anyone is converted to the cult, their life is to Nar'sie and to Nar'sie only. Either you play along, or just don't play.

 

Maybe give the chaplain some extra tools to defend themselves or find out how to stop the cult? I mean, even if security catches a cult in current cult rounds, how much incentive do they have to call the chaplain on that? Even if they know runes are involved? The chaplain is /never/ called. Maybe make the chaplain a little more active in cult rounds? He's supposed to be pretty important, but the only time I see them taking part in it is when they die to it.

 

Security calling the chaplain over for something they aren't even RP-wise able to come to a succinct conclusion about is just borderline tipping into metagaming, not pro-roleplay. Not to mention that a good deal of people in terms of faith are rather secular or keep their religious beliefs separated from their jobs. Especially security, the easiest job to fuck up on the planet in the eyes of everyone else. The last person that would be called is the chaplain in this regard, unfortunately.

[TrickingTrapster]

I get that it doesn't make sense ICly, and that is the entire problem. The only way to really de-cult someone is with the chaplain. Maybe get the chaplain himself to be more active, like whenever someone is converted, send them a message like "You feel a dark force at work..." or something like that. There is a way to fight the cult, but it's not really given enough emphasis.

Also, collective narrative? The only thing I have seen happen in cult rounds is this: "Hey, cool, we got a new member. Alright, now tell him to fuck off until we can summon Nar'Sie.". That may be a bit to the players but can't there be something like initiation rites? I find it a little unbelievable that a recently-converted person can immediately create perfect, working runes despite having zero knowledge of the occult beforehand. And if your counter-argument is, "But on the conversion Nar'Sie gives them the knowledge" then you might as well give the cult all their words from the get-go so they don't have to bother and get on with things.

[Ron]

I get that it doesn't make sense ICly, and that is the entire problem. The only way to really de-cult someone is with the chaplain. Maybe get the chaplain himself to be more active, like whenever someone is converted, send them a message like "You feel a dark force at work..." or something like that. There is a way to fight the cult, but it's not really given enough emphasis.

Also, collective narrative? The only thing I have seen happen in cult rounds is this: "Hey, cool, we got a new member. Alright, now tell him to fuck off until we can summon Nar'Sie.". That may be a bit to the players but can't there be something like initiation rites? I find it a little unbelievable that a recently-converted person can immediately create perfect, working runes despite having zero knowledge of the occult beforehand. And if your counter-argument is, "But on the conversion Nar'Sie gives them the knowledge" then you might as well give the cult all their words from the get-go so they don't have to bother and get on with things.

Well, you /can/ deconvert cultists already. It's a really small chance, and the cultist decides if they want to be deconveretd with an option box that pops up, much like being converted to a cultist. Now, the reason you don't see chaplains going around doing that is because there is a higher chance for you to hit the person with the null rod because "SLipped!" and does some damage to them, and then security shits a brick and kicks you out.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Guest

[TrickingTrapster]

Well, there we go. A change to improve cult: Make deconversions accurate, or make conversions able to fail without the target requiring to resist. At least one thing: Make the chaplain more active in cult rounds. Maybe not through other departments calling him, but through the chaplain himself sensing what's going on.

[Zundy]

Well, there we go. A change to improve cult: Make deconversions accurate, or make conversions able to fail without the target requiring to resist. At least one thing: Make the chaplain more active in cult rounds. Maybe not through other departments calling him, but through the chaplain himself sensing what's going on.

 

I think it would definitely be cool.if the Chaplain became aware, perhaps not straight away, but some time in via a prompt that shit was going down. He'd them be able to form a counter cult and then shit can get rad with good cult v bad cult v security and the crew.

[Guest]

actually if you just force cultists to drink holy water they convert automatically to non-cultist instantly whether they like it or not its really awesome

[TrickingTrapster]

My point about cult is that it's mostly not /fun/. Only for the players playing the cult. If anything it should be the other way around, according to the rules. Same point somewhat goes to merc and raider, they spawn with so many tools meant for killing other players(read: Taking them out of the round) that it becomes impossible not to use them. I'm not saying these antags are supposed to be peaceful, but the focus of these gamemodes is not "creating fun and engaging gameplay for the crew" but "have some fun and try to win since you can shoot anyone in your way". Or in the case of cult, "Get nine, get Nar'Sie". I think we need to shift the focus away from the robustness of these gamemodes.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I can't see your reasoning at all. You are making "roleplay" and "exposition" into the same thing. The entire point of this server is Heavy Roleplay With Antagonists. Right on the title card you see that you will be facing antagonists. Some of these antagonists are designed to have your character die. You agree to risk your characters death when you ready up to join a round that isn't extended. If you don't like the result of a round then you can opt out, play another server, or cryo if you play for a duration. There are consistent majority votes to play and enjoy mercenary and cult rounds and there are people that enjoy playing them equally so, myself included.

You do not need to have your hand held and have the antagonists gently caress you for the entire round. Sometimes you will die and you have to live with that. (LIVE WITH IT! GET IT???)

Even if you die in a round you don't need to stop playing. Cult specifically has many mechanics intentionally designed to give ghosts the chance to play as a construct. You can also play as a mouse, a drone, or respawn in half an hour.

[TrickingTrapster]

I'm perfectly fine with my character dying if it's actually played out, but not if it's "HEY LOOK BAD GUYS PEW PEW / OH HEY DARK SWORD SCHWING SCHWING". What I'm trying to say is that the focus of the three gamemodes is a little off: Raider and merc get a little too much incentive to kill, while cult gets too much incentive to play to win. I sign up for a round of roleplay, not a round of call of duty/ whatever melee fighting game there is. If my character gets taken hostage and sec is being idiots and rush in and I'm killed as a result of that, I won't mind as much, but if I'm killed because a random guy says "Hey look at this" and then starts spam-converting me I'm drawing the line. (A little bit of an extreme example but it's to illustrate my point).

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

What is an acceptable death when you're attacked by raiders?

[Chaznoodles]

What is an acceptable death when you're attacked by raiders?

 

Why are raiders killing and not heisting?

[Guest]

yarr harr pirates, that's why

[TrickingTrapster]

ICly, both heisters and mercs should logically try to cause as little collateral kills as possible, since the more they kill, the more heat they will draw and the more law enforcement will be on their ass. They should only kill when absolutely necessarily, not because they have a gun and the other guy's gun doesn't deal as much damage mechanically. I accept being killed in a round of raider or merc when they put some effort in the situation surrounding it, not running down a hall and just shooting their guns because they have guns and there was this one sec officer that saw them. Want examples of situations I accept and would be ICly possible, jackboot?

[Bedshaped]

I don't feel like AOOC is being used that effectively yet. It will take time but people need to put the effort into establishing how they can use their antag-ness to create RP.

My first use of AOOC was on baystation 12 as a merc. We organised OOCly that we were recruiters from Zeng-Hu Pharmaceuticals looking to head-hunt staff (probably very unrealistic). We spent a good chunk of the round talking to medical, scaring security and generally interacting suspiciously with the whole station without firing shots or damaging anything until it turned out that our credentials were faked.

Hence, the real root of the problem is the players not putting enough effort into their RP. Anyone who clicks on that antag button should be taking on the responsibility of creating roleplay for the station and this should be endorsed and enforced.