[Resolved] Staff Complaint: Garnascus and AimlessAnalyst

[Araskael]

BYOND Key: Araskael

Staff BYOND Key: Garnascus and AimlessAnalyst

Game ID: bC1TXf

Reason for complaint: Breaking of and lack of roleplay.

Evidence/logs/etc: http://pastebin.com/wL78Jb9D

I was the antagonist of the round as a traitor. I geared up, and thought the first thing I should do is to disable the AI so they don't instantly lock me and end the round simply as that. So, I retrieved an intellicard so I wouldn't have to destroy the AI. Instead of subduing the threat, the AI [played by Garnascus] simply turned on the lethals and killed me in two shots and the end.

I've also noticed AimlessAnalyst break character to add on what was being said in DSAY, except In-Character, and admits it, while nobody seemed to take issue by it. (See picture example below and logs above)

Additional remarks:

I personally feel this is extremely low-roleplay. I've tried to inquire about it, and got responses that I expect on other low-roleplay servers. I understand the chaotic nature of SS13, and perhaps I am being too critical, but I feel the title of 'high-roleplay' is extremely misleading if it is the case that people worry more about the gameplay than actual roleplaying in character. The AI in the round, from what I described above, felt very sudden and without any roleplay. One of the points I've brought up in the DSAY was that it seems the antag almost has to powergame, or is even expected to powergame, in order to get anything done in a round. I feel this completely defeats the purpose of roleplaying and just turns more into a deathmatch, which then I would rather just be playing Overwatch or TF2 or something. Especially as an antag, I try my darnedest to give my all and provide an interesting role-play and interaction, and especially to not take another player out of the game, but that seems impossible with how roleplay is conducted here.

On the same note, I admittedly let loose in the DSAY, and I understand I have a very bad way of communicating even under stress, especially my sarcastic responses about being a horrible antag [Or technically good in a completely gameplay definition, all roleplay aside]. However, my arguments I've made remain the same even in a calmer state. It is something I've noticed for a while playing on this server, an issue that I personally came across. Roleplay doesn't feel like it is taken to a high standard here, as I've seen countless of times; for example;

 

 

I understand, I make jokes too, but in a high roleplay environment, I don't break character intentionally. While I apologize for my rash behavior, it is something I've been seeing for quite a while and hoped it would be rectified. Near the end of the logs provided, it was assumed that I was wishing that everything would go my way and believe that everyone else is wrong and I am right; that is completely false. It is my complete intention to provide interesting roleplay, I am completely fine with my character dying or something bad happening to my character if it was roleplayed well. To clarify, I'm not expecting a novels worth of roleplay, but something more than simply instantly carrying out an action just to "valid the antag". I've seen this happen time and time again from countless other players.

I completely try my best to understand everyone's perspective on this, but I sincerely hope that others can make sense of my own. I hate myself to be an asshole, but roleplaying is a hobby that I very much enjoy doing. There are an extremely small amount of good roleplaying outlets that do the same thing that this game can do. I try to have the best of intentions in mind, and I care about making other people happy more than myself, which in turn makes me happy. I hate to be making this complaint, but it is about time that I have made one. I completely understand this is a game, but there is a clear distinction between a roleplaying [especially high roleplay] game and an objective based game such as Overwatch, Battlefield, etc etc; those sort of games are meant to be detached and where you mindlessly or competitively have fun without any in-character, while a more immersive roleplaying game is much more involved with a fictional character that you assume the role of with no objective besides making interesting roleplay. That is my perspective of this.

To note, I am not saying these two players are the central issue of the entire server, but unfortunately are what stirred this specific exhibit.

[TishinaStalker]

Sounds like you were messing with a machine. You shouldn't expect RP from cyborgs+AI because they're very huge threats to antagonists. If they're ordered to go in and subdue someone, they're not realistically going to stop and RP with you before they take you down. They're going to run up and they're going to take you down. Exactly like they were ordered to or protocol demanded.

Also: HEAD ADMIN(Garnascus) says, "i was afk up until you blew the door open"

Sounds like you got the shit end of the stick out of a knee jerk reaction? This whole thing is either: A) You got the knee jerk of a reaction like said back there. B) You expected something unrealistic. Is the AI meant to just go hologram, lock you in a room, and hope you stay in there long enough for it to RP before it clears the security threat? No. Especially not when there's an intruder in its core and one of its laws demands self preservation. Otherwise, that's where the whole "(synth) isn't following laws" complaint comes in from others. If you infiltrate the AI core, you should prepare for the worst.

The real issue relies on I don't know if I just can't read properly or not. Were you stunned and THEN fired on with lethal turrets? Or were you fired with lethals on the spot? Because if it's the former, that's where I would take issue.

[Araskael]

Sounds like you were messing with a machine. You shouldn't expect RP from cyborgs+AI because they're very huge threats to antagonists. If they're ordered to go in and subdue someone, they're not realistically going to stop and RP with you before they take you down. They're going to run up and they're going to take you down. Exactly like they were ordered to or protocol demanded.

Also: HEAD ADMIN(Garnascus) says, "i was afk up until you blew the door open"

Sounds like you got the shit end of the stick out of a knee jerk reaction? This whole thing is either: A) You got the knee jerk of a reaction like said back there. B) You expected something unrealistic. Is the AI meant to just go hologram, lock you in a room, and hope you stay in there long enough for it to RP before it clears the security threat? No. Especially not when there's an intruder in its core and one of its laws demands self preservation. Otherwise, that's where the whole "(synth) isn't following laws" complaint comes in from others. If you infiltrate the AI core, you should prepare for the worst.

The real issue relies on I don't know if I just can't read properly or not. Were you stunned and THEN fired on with lethal turrets? Or were you fired with lethals on the spot? Because if it's the former, that's where I would take issue.

 

I honestly do not feel that synthetics should be exempt from roleplay, it is a severe break in it if they are simply just the exception to the rule. I had a very clear shot to the AI core itself, I could have just sniped it to death but I did not, and I am fairly certain the AI saw me firing at the turrets in the core that automatically fire stuns so that I may card the AI without harming it. I was already on critical, moving at an extremely low pace, and even retreating, where they turned on lethal, which killed me in two shots. I don't consider that subduing. That is simply murder. It would've made sense if I was actually shooting at the AI itself, trying to kill it, but that may be my personal opinion. The AI has an extremely large presence in the game, and yet seems to be exempt from roleplay as you've confirmed, and so its mere presence is a break of immersion if it doesn't adhere to the same rules. I really hope this isn't the case.

[TishinaStalker]

I honestly do not feel that synthetics should be exempt from roleplay, it is a severe break in it if they are simply just the exception to the rule.

 

Lemme rephrase myself so that it makes more sense. In a combat situation, you should not expect synths to stop and chat. Organics, ehhhhh, because they can still choose to surrender and stuff. Don't expect machines to back down because they have orders to follow to the letter; because they're machines. For the most part, if lethals are being exchanged between two parties, don't expect the other to give up the ghost because it wants to survive too. That only works on unarmed people; in which case I could defend you, but that wasn't the case here.

 

I had a very clear shot to the AI core itself, I could have just sniped it to death but I did not, and I am fairly certain the AI saw me firing at the turrets in the core

That is simply murder. It would've made sense if I was actually shooting at the AI itself, trying to kill it, but that may be my personal opinion.

 

That is most definitely your personal opinion. You two were exchanging lethals and just told me that you had the chance to kill it. It kind of sounds like Garn and Jenn are saying in those logs. You infiltrated the core with lethal weapon(s), you are firing lethals in the core, and you SHOWED intent to kill and damage both station property and the AI itself (both being covered by AI laws). Your personal intent is irrelevant in this case because carding the AI is definitely not what you show by firing lethals at its turrets and there's no way he could've known that carding him was your true intent. Lethals is definitely the nuclear option, but it's a valid option regardless in this situation. If you weren't firing lethals, then that would be a totally different story, and using lethals would most certainly have been wrong. When you were showing intent to potentially destroy the AI, then gloves come off, and it needs to use every tool at its disposal (within reason as the situation escalates) to stop you. I'm sorry, but you should've been more prepared to deal with the AI.

[Araskael]

I honestly do not feel that synthetics should be exempt from roleplay, it is a severe break in it if they are simply just the exception to the rule.

 

Lemme rephrase myself so that it makes more sense. In a combat situation, you should not expect synths to stop and chat. Organics, ehhhhh, because they can still choose to surrender and stuff. Don't expect machines to back down because they have orders to follow to the letter; because they're machines. For the most part, if lethals are being exchanged between two parties, don't expect the other to give up the ghost because it wants to survive too. That only works on unarmed people; in which case I could defend you, but that wasn't the case here.

 

I had a very clear shot to the AI core itself, I could have just sniped it to death but I did not, and I am fairly certain the AI saw me firing at the turrets in the core

That is simply murder. It would've made sense if I was actually shooting at the AI itself, trying to kill it, but that may be my personal opinion.

 

That is most definitely your personal opinion. You two were exchanging lethals and just told me that you had the chance to kill it. It kind of sounds like Garn and Jenn are saying in those logs. You infiltrated the core with lethal weapon(s), you are firing lethals in the core, and you SHOWED intent to kill and damage both station property and the AI itself (both being covered by AI laws). Your personal intent is irrelevant in this case because carding the AI is definitely not what you show by firing lethals at its turrets and there's no way he could've known that carding him was your true intent. Lethals is definitely the nuclear option, but it's a valid option regardless in this situation. If you weren't firing lethals, then that would be a totally different story, and using lethals would most certainly have been wrong. When you were showing intent to potentially destroy the AI, then gloves come off, and it needs to use every tool at its disposal (within reason as the situation escalates) to stop you. I'm sorry, but you should've been more prepared to deal with the AI.

 

I understand your perspective on it. I don't at all blame anyone for this way of game, but it's just not the type of game I'm looking for or what I expected from the server's rules or title. In the end, I suppose it is always only my issue and nobody else. So, the only logical thing for me to do is to just not play anymore and try to find another sort of game that holds the same degree of roleplay. I don't mean that in a condescending way, but it's obvious I seem to have a different definition or nobody is understanding my position. I'll keep an eye out on this thread for any other comments, but I think I'm going to make the decision to not return to the game. Hopefully to greener pastures.

[TishinaStalker]

That's reasonable. Hope you have fun wherever you do go.

[Absynth]

This is ridiculous, synthetics should have to roleplay just like everyone else; it's a high RP server. Why are they exempt again? Laws? You mean the ones that are so vague that they're meaningless?

[TishinaStalker]

This is ridiculous, synthetics should have to roleplay just like everyone else; it's a high RP server. Why are they exempt again? Laws? You mean the ones that are so vague that they're meaningless?

 

Because they were exchanging lethal fire. Please read the thread before commenting something that was already addressed on this thread.

If you fire lethally at someone who also has lethal means, expect them to use it. He fired on the AI lethally, the AI fired back lethally. One of them died, the other didn't. Do you want the AI to stop and try to exchange words while it's under immediate threat? Because if that's the case, then I will also proceed to PM every single person that gets into a combat situation, and fails to say some arbitrary message when bullets are flying at them. That would fall under... ERT, mercenaries, security, anybody that ever picks up a gun, anybody that fires said gun, etc.

Yeah, no. That's not gonna happen.

[Araskael]

This is ridiculous, synthetics should have to roleplay just like everyone else; it's a high RP server. Why are they exempt again? Laws? You mean the ones that are so vague that they're meaningless?

 

Because they were exchanging lethal fire. Please read the thread before commenting something that was already addressed on this thread.

If you fire lethally at someone who also has lethal means, expect them to use it. He fired on the AI lethally, the AI fired back lethally. One of them died, the other didn't. Do you want the AI to stop and try to exchange words while it's under immediate threat? Because if that's the case, then I will also proceed to PM every single person that gets into a combat situation, and fails to say some arbitrary message when bullets are flying at them. That would fall under... ERT, mercenaries, security, anybody that ever picks up a gun, anybody that fires said gun, etc.

Yeah, no. That's not gonna happen.

 

I don't mean this in an insulting way, but I don't feel you understand what I am saying either. Everyone I've spoken to in this issue uses this argument liberally but it is far from my intentions or truth. People think that I just simply want all combat to go away, to have us playing in a boring old office typing sentences of words to eachother. No. I am extremely experienced in roleplaying games, playing them since around 2006, and have a considerable amount of different ways to roleplay. The whole point of a roleplaying game is to get immersed into a character, play them out, and if playing with other people, have an attempt to make it interesting for the other person. In this sense, it is considered very counter-intuitive to create a character that not only doesn't want to engage in any social interaction, but simply just kills things without any intention or interaction whatsoever. In this case, the AI had MORE than ample time to subdue me, or even call in a security officer, and to clarify again, I am not expecting the AI to simply drop their defenses and come up to me in person and be like "Please Mr. Criminal person, put your weapons down pretty please", but to perhaps actually disable the criminal or call for someone who can instead of just instantly murdering them and bring me out of the game completely. To simply have a round where your own motive as a player is simply to gear yourself up and ready yourself to "robust" the antagonist is no different than any of the other low-RP servers. I'm NOT trying to tell people how they should enjoy a video game, but if you play a game that is advertised as one thing and you get an experience that is completely opposite to that, then of course someone who is looking for the advertised experience is going to be upset. For example, if you played a game that glorifies its superb racing mechanics, but the game turns out to be a walking simulator with a racing background. If people do not feel like roleplaying, or are tired of roleplaying, they shouldn't continue playing the roleplaying game. I really have no clue how else to explain this any further, I am not the only person who feels this way, but in this server and frankly the entirety of SS13 that is basically low to no RP, this minority has no place anywhere.

[Garnascus]

So, heres what the core looked like after i came back from AFK. Granted this screenshot was taken AFTER i had killed you but it does show where everything was.

https://gyazo.com/1e79344b76c34e79f04810dfc839f4bc

I was tabbed out and i only tabbed back in after you blew open the inner core door with some sort of bomb. Then you shot a few lethal laser rounds in at something as evidence by the carbine on the floor that has half a clip. I didn't immediately shoot you with lethal weaponry only because i was having a bug where i couldn't open the turret menu. It was just a blank screen. I tried to let the security officer in who heard the explosion and shit but after some sort of dialogue between the two of you i was told to lock you in.

At this point i re-logged to fix the bug as the admin logs will show, jenn even commented on me "lagging" but i wasn't. When i came back online you where firing lethal weaponry right at my inner turrets so i enabled my own turrets and turned you into a burning cinder. If that isn't enough to justify me enabling lethal weaponry on my turrets then i dont really know what is. You where extremely ill prepared and for some reason you didn't try to change or alter my laws since you had access to the law computers and the various modules. You could have also cut a camera so that i would not have been able to use my turrets.

The thing to take away here is there are consequences to being ill prepared or just being bad at the game. People like to say that their isn't such a thing as being good or "trying to win" on a heavy RP server but preparing yourself appropriately for assaulting the most secure area on the station isn't even close to power gaming. I am not a mind reader, your intent of the situation is irrelavent. Stop trying to use it as a defense. I had no way to know you had anything but my utter destruction in mind.

TLDR come better prepared next time and dont expect people to overlook severe and repeated mistakes.

[Araskael]

So, heres what the core looked like after i came back from AFK. Granted this screenshot was taken AFTER i had killed you but it does show where everything was.

https://gyazo.com/1e79344b76c34e79f04810dfc839f4bc

I was tabbed out and i only tabbed back in after you blew open the inner core door with some sort of bomb. Then you shot a few lethal laser rounds in at something as evidence by the carbine on the floor that has half a clip. I didn't immediately shoot you with lethal weaponry only because i was having a bug where i couldn't open the turret menu. It was just a blank screen. I tried to let the security officer in who heard the explosion and shit but after some sort of dialogue between the two of you i was told to lock you in.

At this point i re-logged to fix the bug as the admin logs will show, jenn even commented on me "lagging" but i wasn't. When i came back online you where firing lethal weaponry right at my inner turrets so i enabled my own turrets and turned you into a burning cinder. If that isn't enough to justify me enabling lethal weaponry on my turrets then i dont really know what is. You where extremely ill prepared and for some reason you didn't try to change or alter my laws since you had access to the law computers and the various modules. You could have also cut a camera so that i would not have been able to use my turrets.

The thing to take away here is there are consequences to being ill prepared or just being bad at the game. People like to say that their isn't such a thing as being good or "trying to win" on a heavy RP server but preparing yourself appropriately for assaulting the most secure area on the station isn't even close to power gaming. I am not a mind reader, your intent of the situation is irrelavent. Stop trying to use it as a defense. I had no way to know you had anything but my utter destruction in mind.

TLDR come better prepared next time and dont expect people to overlook severe and repeated mistakes.

 

Because my character had no intent on rewiring or whatever the AI system and rule the station, they didn't even know how. Though alright, intent is irrelevant, and seemingly so is roleplay. I have not once shot at the core itself, a laser weapon can shoot right through glass, and into the core itself, and the AI had more than enough time to resort to alternative methods to simple murder. That aside, as I am trying to say again and again, my defense is the quality of roleplay, which as far as I know is the point of the server and is a part of the rules. The AI or cyborgs is seemingly exempt from any of these rules.

"•Killing in self-defense in NOT preferred. If possible, always try to flee, or disable your opponent. If your character does commit a murder in a canon setting, please roleplay out the effects it would have on your character as well."

This whole situation aside, I have seen human characters commit these same sort of acts, called the admins about it, and those players were commended and defended. To me, this is a severe break in roleplay. My intentions are as altruistic as I possibly can make them, I want this to be a fun roleplay environment for everyone, but with any of this happening it can be near impossible to do so.

[Garnascus]

You're going to keep shifting blame and arent going to consider at all the mistakes you made here. Your entire premise and points are either flawed or straight up invalid for reasons i have already stated. AI and synthetics also have different parameters for force escalation. You had a weapon set to lethal intent and had breached into my core room, i thus shot you with lethal weaponry. Its really that simple. Do not expect me to go along with you trying to card me.

[Garnascus]

...Shit, i fat fingered a button and deleted a post of yours. Sorry about that.

[Araskael]

I mentioned something along the lines of that I'm not blaming you for all of the issues of the server, but I feel there is an issue with the policy and how roleplay is conducted on this server. On a completely gameplay level, I completely understand that I screwed up and should have been more robust and stuff. On a roleplay level, I feel it is very unfair that I was removed from the round so suddenly without any prior action or roleplay. If I were to storm in and instantly kill the AI with no prior actions or roleplay, I would be the one who is in the wrong here. I feel that not many is understanding my point of view and the issues there are present in roleplaying in this server.

[Garnascus]

sure it might be unfair but the game you are playing is basically a "how will i die" simulator. Their are about a billion ways you can die horribly and sometimes nothing you can can prevent it. No its not always going to be fair either. In this case you could have prevented it so i do not feel your further points are valid.

[SierraKomodo]

I'm gonna chime in here for a second and bring up the one thing that's standing out to me most about this:

A lawed AI, without any law changes (As evidenced by what both of you have posted), killed a /traitor/ (Implying its a crewmember), and used 'following law 4' as the reason for it. You directly violated law 2 in the process of doing so, by causing lethal harm to a crewmember. Unless interpretation of the laws has changed again, this violates the currently standing 'If an action would violate laws, you cannot take that action, period' (Which is something I have been bwoinked for in the past. I've also been bwoinked for not saving someone who was suffocating because opening the door would have vented about 8 other people, but yeah).

[Garnascus]

A crew member was breaching into my inner core room with lethal weaponry. Their is no magic shield on them just because they are crew at that point.

[Shadow]

Did you, at least, try to stun them first instead of killing them?

Did you inform command? Was there even command?

Did they were any armor that partially protected them from the stuns?

[Garnascus]

Did you, at least, try to stun them first instead of killing them?

Did you inform command? Was there even command?

Did they were any armor that partially protected them from the stuns?

 

all we had was a single sec officer, no command. He was wearing the breacher suit so stuns would be totally ineffective.

[Jennalele]

Actually, they were using a traitor ID card with a fake name. They wouldn't be recognized as crew by the AI when in the core- lethals did not violate any laws as they were not identified as crew.

I was Taras, the officer that came to investigate. I heard a shit ton of stun rounds go off, so its not like Garn immediately lethalled them down. Even if they were one more stun from dropping, or 20, Garn would have had no way to tell, and so when they came back in after waving a gun at my face, I can understand moving to lethals.

[SierraKomodo]

Well, with that in mind, I'd say how Garnascus handled the situation is fine. Unidentified person in a breacher suit with lasers shooting up your inner chamber and blowing holes in the doors definitely warrants stopping him as per law 4, and law 2 wouldn't apply since he couldn't be ID'd as crw.

[Faris]

Well, with that in mind, I'd say how Garnascus handled the situation is fine. Unidentified person in a breacher suit with lasers shooting up your inner chamber and blowing holes in the doors definitely warrants stopping him as per law 4, and law 2 wouldn't apply since he couldn't be ID'd as crw.

 

I agree, after further information was shown, it seems like in my opinion what Garnascus essentially did was he had a check list with him ticking off options until it reached the requirement of lethal countermeasures.

[Araskael]

I still don't think anyone completely understand what I am trying to argue, but there is only so much that I can present or argue at this point. In the end, I am powerless to do anything about it, and it just feels futile to even make the effort here. While I thank you for the time with addressing this issue, I don't feel as if anything will improve in this respect. With that said, with the many issues pertaining to roleplay, or lack of thereof, I don't think I can continue playing, and the fact that you're losing a very capable roleplayer should be concerning in some way. Though I doubt my departure would mean anything anyway.

[Garnascus]

I still don't think anyone completely understand what I am trying to argue, but there is only so much that I can present or argue at this point. In the end, I am powerless to do anything about it, and it just feels futile to even make the effort here. While I thank you for the time with addressing this issue, I don't feel as if anything will improve in this respect. With that said, with the many issues pertaining to roleplay, or lack of thereof, I don't think I can continue playing, and the fact that you're losing a very capable roleplayer should be concerning in some way. Though I doubt my departure would mean anything anyway.

 

You are not special and you have already been replaced. You made a complaint, asserted a position and multiple staff have weighed in vindicating my actions. If their are no objections i will assume i am good to lock this in about 24 hours.

[Araskael]

I still don't think anyone completely understand what I am trying to argue, but there is only so much that I can present or argue at this point. In the end, I am powerless to do anything about it, and it just feels futile to even make the effort here. While I thank you for the time with addressing this issue, I don't feel as if anything will improve in this respect. With that said, with the many issues pertaining to roleplay, or lack of thereof, I don't think I can continue playing, and the fact that you're losing a very capable roleplayer should be concerning in some way. Though I doubt my departure would mean anything anyway.

 

You are not special and you have already been replaced. You made a complaint, asserted a position and multiple staff have weighed in vindicating my actions. If their are no objections i will assume i am good to lock this in about 24 hours.

 

Good to know that you're handling your own complaint and are unbiased, and clearly not resorting to ad hominem. Thank you for confirming my cynicism about the state of affairs of this server and the attitude of the admins about their players.