[Resolved] Datberry Complaint

[Azande]

BYOND Key: XanderDox

Staff BYOND Key: DatBerry

Game ID: bP1-cZjd

Reason for complaint: Not enforcing the rules properly

Evidence/logs/etc: See GameID, Ahelp crashing makes it impossible for me to screenshot logs from chat.

Additional remarks:

Essentially, Hackon Something, Scientist, decided to spend the entire shift doing weapons research, this would be FINE. However, it was revealed that Hackon was a changeling. Now, this would still be fine - Antags should be able to use their departments to their advantage! But this is what happened.

I was the Research Director, and I was printing off some weapons for security (code red), I printed off a demolecularizer, and while I was handing Security other guns, Hackon came in and picked the demolecularizer up, I kindly asked him to hand it to me, as I printed it off for myself, he said no, I asked him again, he ignored me and printed force gloves, I ordered him to hand it back to me, and he pushed me across the room with the gloves, and then picked up a riot shield that was in the lab for whatever reason, and began bashing my face in, this is VERY minimal roleplay.

I finally get grips on what's happening and flash him, so I begin kicking him in a panic because at this point, I'm a one-handed RD with a flash and nothing else. He gets up, and pulls out a lawgiver, and begins opening fire on me, with intent to kill me. This is the absolute barebones RP possible.

Now, I wouldn't have an issue with this, if he had tried to RP with me more, OR even tried to seem like an antag earlier in the shift. However, he did not, he spent the shift researching weapons, filled his bag with an armoury worth of different methods of killing people, and then just opened fire when he got his chance.

An antag, per our rules, is meant to drive story, roleplay with people, and make the round enjoyable. Hakon did not do this, so I ahelped.

Datberry, who this complaint is about, responded, and was quite unhelpful and even somewhat dismissive. I accused Hakon of powergaming (since he printed off plenty of weapons and just shoved them in his bag near round-end), and instead of investigating anything, he immediately responds that I should get the official definition of powergaming, recite it back to him, and explain how it applies.

It is NOT the player's responsibility to prove guilt, it is the player's responsibility to report questionable incidents, and then for staff to INVESTIGATE it and determine what occured, and then make a decision. I should not have to be the Prosecution inside of an ahelp, and prove anything before staff will investigate.

I then asked to speak with an admin because I was not OK with how my ahelp was handeled, I was told every staff decision is final on-server, and I could not speak with an admin. If this is admin-policy, I'd like it explained WHY by a senior admin or Headmin.

The goal of this complaint is not to in anyway, damage Datberry of his chance to become a moderator, but I would like to see Hackon's conduct addressed.

[Scheveningen]

I was the Research Director, and I was printing off some weapons for security (code red), I printed off a demolecularizer, and while I was handing Security other guns, Hackon came in and picked the demolecularizer up, I kindly asked him to hand it to me, as I printed it off for myself, he said no, I asked him again, he ignored me and printed force gloves, I ordered him to hand it back to me, and he pushed me across the room with the gloves, and then picked up a riot shield that was in the lab for whatever reason, and began bashing my face in, this is VERY minimal roleplay.

I finally get grips on what's happening and flash him, so I begin kicking him in a panic because at this point, I'm a one-handed RD with a flash and nothing else. He gets up, and pulls out a lawgiver, and begins opening fire on me, with intent to kill me. This is the absolute barebones RP possible.

 

Contrary to popular belief, antagonists are not meant to escalate in this way, and are held to almost (I say almost because you don't need the same in-round escalation to decide to assassinate a crewmember, but you still need to act like you premeditate your antagging and show it fairly clearly, going 0 to 100 is not escalation, it is terminal velocity) the same standard as other characters when it comes to violence. I'm curious as to why Datberry dismissed this adminhelp without making an attempt to investigate this and administered the burden of proof onto a player whose role on-server doesn't constitute investigating the issue, but rather, it being the moderator's job.

I also don't quite understand why trial staff who has been mod staff before would tell someone to explain to them why this is an admin-actionable issue (rather than taking 5-10 minutes to figure out what happened and explain what did happen) if Xander happened to already explain the issue, you only pose that question when someone has been making stupid adminhelps that don't relate to situations that require a bit of investigation.

[DatBerry]

The initial Ahelp:

:Request for Help: /(Winoa Summers)() () () ()XanderDox?DIBSPPJMPHakon ()? just opened fire on me and started killing me for no reason, he's a ling but tthere was nothing leading up to it, he just went at me

 

This is very misleading, he did not open fire on you for "no reason" you were ordering him to return the weapons, and he had assumed you were going to get him arrested. and the wording Implies he started shooting right off the bat. on the contrary, all he did at first was push you with force gloves and held a riot shield. You went after him with a flash. and stomped him. then he pulled a lawgiver and shot you, he did not even give chase after you ran away and left you to escape.

 

: [Player PM]/(Winoa Summers)()XanderDox?I printed something off from the autolathe and he grabbed it, I asked him to hand it to me, he refused, I ordered him too, he threw me with gloves, started bashing my face in with a shield, then I flashed him, he got up, pulled a lawgiver, and opened fire, I supsect he printed off a lot of shit thats in his satchel, it's clear powergaming :/

 

A changeling was printing weapons during code red where security was armed by the armory and you were on your way to arm them with more weapons, now he had so many reasons to stop you, even kill you. but let's address the powergaming point.

 

Powergaming = Also know as 'playing to win'. If you're trying to complete your objectives, kill the antagonists, or 'win', at all costs and ignore RP, you may be better off somewhere else. This includes having your character unafraid of death or pain, resistant to any torture, ready to battle alone against a crowd of opponents, or, being unarmed, senselessly attacking a gun wielder or hostage taker. This also includes loading up your character with items 'just in case', for example wearing internals 'just in case' there's a hull breach or plasma leak. Or wearing a spacesuit indoors for no reason. Further, this includes using knowledge that your character would not possess: such as knowledge of changelings, the cult, syndicate, etcetera, and acting on it.

 

The definition of powergaming, as stated the changeling was first of all, an antag. that alone is a reason to get a weapon. secondly it was code red and everyone was dying. security armed and what not.

 

to : PM/(Winoa Summers)()XanderDox?so what you're saying is that a scientist ling printed guns, you started a confronation with them, and ended up shot, and that is powergaming?

: [Player PM]/(Winoa Summers)()XanderDox?I didn't start a confrontation with them, a science ling printed off tons and tons of shit (powergaming, they have ling powers for a reason), I asked for a single thing I printed off back, and they attacked me, and then when I started fighting back they literally unleashed a lawgiver onto an unarmed research director.

having ling powers doesn't mean you can't use other equipment, I still don't believe you think this is a valid argument, your question came off threatening to the changeling, thinking you wanted him to hand over all his weapons, and believing you would get him arrested, not to mention you were going to arm security, his main counter force. he had enough reasons to KILL you. but he did not unload at you from the beginning, he pushed you and smacked you with the riot shield, hardly a murder attempt, you flashed them and as far as i know, made no attempt to escape until you unleashed fire at them.

 

literally unleashed a lawgiver onto an unarmed research director.

???? why would he even care? don't give him security standards to escalation of force, they're the bad guy, they're not expected to follow lethal weapons regulations. and you were hardly unarmed, you had an instant stun weapon you have already used, and taking someone down with a flash is hilariously easy. He had no reasons to give you another shot at flashing him.

 

An antag, per our rules, is meant to drive story, roleplay with people, and make the round enjoyable. Hakon did not do this, so I ahelped.

I would argue he did drive a story, he played the shady insubordinate scientist who attacked the RD and let them off the hook so they could report it or do whatever they want. and you can't judge someone's roleplay on your own interactions with them alone. and lastly, antagonists are already having it hard, Do you really want us to start bwoinking antags for making weapons and shooting people who flashed them?

 

It is NOT the player's responsibility to prove guilt, it is the player's responsibility to report questionable incidents, and then for staff to INVESTIGATE it and determine what occured, and then make a decision. I should not have to be the Prosecution inside of an ahelp, and prove anything before staff will investigate.

 

I told you to quote it because what you were reporting as powergaming does not fit under the definition.

 

I then asked to speak with an admin because I was not OK with how my ahelp was handeled, I was told every staff decision is final on-server, and I could not speak with an admin. If this is admin-policy, I'd like it explained WHY by a senior admin or Headmin.

Honestly, i said this because there wasn't any active and free admins at the time, i believe only prate was not afk and they were already dealing with other issues. and I had two other adminhelps to deal with and didn't want to extend the PMs anymore.

 

The goal of this complaint is not to in anyway, damage Datberry of his chance to become a moderator, but I would like to see Hackon's conduct addressed.

Not really related, but if you ever think I am doing a sub-par work, don't shy off from making a staff complaint, It was a very busy round for me in PM handling to the point where i had to completely stop playing and I may have made a mistake, that you or someone else could point out. but i believe this time I've addressed all concerns.

 

this is actually funny because i was a full mod for a long time before retiring due to irl business, it's just that it's the second time someone tried to use it and I don't see see the need for ad hominem when ahelping.

 

Now to delta's reply.

 

Contrary to popular belief, antagonists are not meant to escalate in this way, and are held to almost (I say almost because you don't need the same in-round escalation to decide to assassinate a crewmember, but you still need to act like you premeditate your antagging and show it fairly clearly, going 0 to 100 is not escalation, it is terminal velocity) the same standard as other characters when it comes to violence.

They did not kill them, hardly, they pushed them and whacked them, and they came back and flashed the ling. even after all this they did not kill them nor attempt to follow them and silence them from speaking.

here's the sequence of events from how I understood it:

RD walks in and prints a weapon

scientist ling takes weapon

RD asks them to hand it over

scientist pushes them with force gloves and bashed them with shield

RD gets up flashes them and kicks them on the floor

scientist gets up and unloads at RD

RD escapes

scientist doesn't chase.

the scientist had enough reason to fight, and their other claim, as i stated before, was that the antag was powergaming by hording weapons, during code red. and that's why i asked them to check the rules themselves because that is not what i would call powergaming, not by a long shot.

[Azande]

The initial Ahelp:

:Request for Help: /(Winoa Summers)() () () ()XanderDox?DIBSPPJMPHakon ()? just opened fire on me and started killing me for no reason, he's a ling but tthere was nothing leading up to it, he just went at me

 

This is very misleading, he did not open fire on you for "no reason" you were ordering him to return the weapons, and he had assumed you were going to get him arrested. and the wording Implies he started shooting right off the bat. on the contrary, all he did at first was push you with force gloves and held a riot shield. You went after him with a flash. and stomped him. then he pulled a lawgiver and shot you, he did not even give chase after you ran away and left you to escape.

 

: [Player PM]/(Winoa Summers)()XanderDox?I printed something off from the autolathe and he grabbed it, I asked him to hand it to me, he refused, I ordered him too, he threw me with gloves, started bashing my face in with a shield, then I flashed him, he got up, pulled a lawgiver, and opened fire, I supsect he printed off a lot of shit thats in his satchel, it's clear powergaming :/

 

A changeling was printing weapons during code red where security was armed by the armory and you were on your way to arm them with more weapons, now he had so many reasons to stop you, even kill you. but let's address the powergaming point.

 

Powergaming = Also know as 'playing to win'. If you're trying to complete your objectives, kill the antagonists, or 'win', at all costs and ignore RP, you may be better off somewhere else. This includes having your character unafraid of death or pain, resistant to any torture, ready to battle alone against a crowd of opponents, or, being unarmed, senselessly attacking a gun wielder or hostage taker. This also includes loading up your character with items 'just in case', for example wearing internals 'just in case' there's a hull breach or plasma leak. Or wearing a spacesuit indoors for no reason. Further, this includes using knowledge that your character would not possess: such as knowledge of changelings, the cult, syndicate, etcetera, and acting on it.

 

The definition of powergaming, as stated the changeling was first of all, an antag. that alone is a reason to get a weapon. secondly it was code red and everyone was dying. security armed and what not.

 

to : PM/(Winoa Summers)()XanderDox?so what you're saying is that a scientist ling printed guns, you started a confronation with them, and ended up shot, and that is powergaming?

: [Player PM]/(Winoa Summers)()XanderDox?I didn't start a confrontation with them, a science ling printed off tons and tons of shit (powergaming, they have ling powers for a reason), I asked for a single thing I printed off back, and they attacked me, and then when I started fighting back they literally unleashed a lawgiver onto an unarmed research director.

having ling powers doesn't mean you can't use other equipment, I still don't believe you think this is a valid argument, your question came off threatening to the changeling, thinking you wanted him to hand over all his weapons, and believing you would get him arrested, not to mention you were going to arm security, his main counter force. he had enough reasons to KILL you. but he did not unload at you from the beginning, he pushed you and smacked you with the riot shield, hardly a murder attempt, you flashed them and as far as i know, made no attempt to escape until you unleashed fire at them.

 

literally unleashed a lawgiver onto an unarmed research director.

???? why would he even care? don't give him security standards to escalation of force, they're the bad guy, they're not expected to follow lethal weapons regulations. and you were hardly unarmed, you had an instant stun weapon you have already used, and taking someone down with a flash is hilariously easy. He had no reasons to give you another shot at flashing him.

 

An antag, per our rules, is meant to drive story, roleplay with people, and make the round enjoyable. Hakon did not do this, so I ahelped.

I would argue he did drive a story, he played the shady insubordinate scientist who attacked the RD and let them off the hook so they could report it or do whatever they want. and you can't judge someone's roleplay on your own interactions with them alone. and lastly, antagonists are already having it hard, Do you really want us to start bwoinking antags for making weapons and shooting people who flashed them?

 

It is NOT the player's responsibility to prove guilt, it is the player's responsibility to report questionable incidents, and then for staff to INVESTIGATE it and determine what occured, and then make a decision. I should not have to be the Prosecution inside of an ahelp, and prove anything before staff will investigate.

 

I told you to quote it because what you were reporting as powergaming does not fit under the definition.

 

I then asked to speak with an admin because I was not OK with how my ahelp was handeled, I was told every staff decision is final on-server, and I could not speak with an admin. If this is admin-policy, I'd like it explained WHY by a senior admin or Headmin.

Honestly, i said this because there wasn't any active and free admins at the time, i believe only prate was not afk and they were already dealing with other issues. and I had two other adminhelps to deal with and didn't want to extend the PMs anymore.

 

The goal of this complaint is not to in anyway, damage Datberry of his chance to become a moderator, but I would like to see Hackon's conduct addressed.

Not really related, but if you ever think I am doing a sub-par work, don't shy off from making a staff complaint, It was a very busy round for me in PM handling to the point where i had to completely stop playing and I may have made a mistake, that you or someone else could point out. but i believe this time I've addressed all concerns.

 

this is actually funny because i was a full mod for a long time before retiring due to irl business, it's just that it's the second time someone tried to use it and I don't see see the need for ad hominem when ahelping.

 

Now to delta's reply.

 

Contrary to popular belief, antagonists are not meant to escalate in this way, and are held to almost (I say almost because you don't need the same in-round escalation to decide to assassinate a crewmember, but you still need to act like you premeditate your antagging and show it fairly clearly, going 0 to 100 is not escalation, it is terminal velocity) the same standard as other characters when it comes to violence.

They did not kill them, hardly, they pushed them and whacked them, and they came back and flashed the ling. even after all this they did not kill them nor attempt to follow them and silence them from speaking.

here's the sequence of events from how I understood it:

RD walks in and prints a weapon

scientist ling takes weapon

RD asks them to hand it over

scientist pushes them with force gloves and bashed them with shield

RD gets up flashes them and kicks them on the floor

scientist gets up and unloads at RD

RD escapes

scientist doesn't chase.

the scientist had enough reason to fight, and their other claim, as i stated before, was that the antag was powergaming by hording weapons, during code red. and that's why i asked them to check the rules themselves because that is not what i would call powergaming, not by a long shot.

 

I kind of oppose everything you've written here in terms of the situation. Me asking him to hand over something of mine that he picked up is not 'threatening' or 'implying I'll call security'.

I asked him to hand me something that I printed and was on the floor, just as I would if I dropped my PDA, or anything else belonging to me, I asked three times and there was never any implication I was going to call security or escalate, I did not disarm him or try to remove them.

To imply me flashing him was escalating, he was literally bashing my face in with a riot shield and I had already been in medical three times with life threatening injuries, and was missing an arm from an earlier door shocking. He cornered me against the door and was hitting me, so he got flashed and of course, I started kicking him - my character was angry. He then escalated by taking out a lawgiver and opening fire on me after running away from where he was laying down, OPENING fire on an unarmed, unarmoured Research Director that he could have taken hostage. He WOULD have killed me if I had not moved out of the path of his final bullets before he was forced to flee by the security outside the window.

The reason it escalated to him using guns was not, me kicking him, it was him throwing me with forcegloves and bashing me with a shield multiple times.

As well, antags are entirely held to escalation expectations! Not as stringent as Security, but the expectations exist in the rules that I copy and pasted to you in our ahelp conversation:

From The Rules

CONFLICT AND ANTAGONISTS

Only escalate conflict in a realistic manner - some characters might overreact, but you would not realistically go berserk or attempt to kill someone if they stole your prized pen, for instance. Again, your character must be motivated enough to commit to more drastic action, as they undertake it.

ON BEING AN ANTAGONIST

Being an antagonist does not exempt you from any server rules. Being an antagonist is meant to give you easier access to character motivation with which to generate roleplay, and access to certain tools to assist with that as well.

•The primary goal of antangonists is to DRIVE A STORY AND TO GENERATE INTERACTION. Be creative when coming up with objectives, and try to do things which will be fun for others, not only yourself. Do not resort to the bare minimums of generating a story through mechanical means, either. This means: no unmotivated/not roleplayed out mass murders, etcetera. See the rules below for further clarification.

•Only resort to killing if it makes sense or drives a story. Randomly killing someone because you’re a traitor will get you removed right quick. This also means that murder for the sake of murder is punishable. However, in certain situations, murder can serve as a tool, if none other applicable. If you’re uncertain, ask for guidance via adminhelps.

[DatBerry]

I kind of oppose everything you've written here in terms of the situation. Me asking him to hand over something of mine that he picked up is not 'threatening' or 'implying I'll call security'.

I asked him to hand me something that I printed and was on the floor, just as I would if I dropped my PDA, or anything else belonging to me, I asked three times and there was never any implication I was going to call security or escalate, I did not disarm him or try to remove them.

 

that may be the case to someone with a focused person, but say "hand over the weapons" to a changeling that was printing off illegal weapons and stocking during red alert with security armed, it's very likely to be understood as "hand over all the weapons you've got", which was what the player thought.

but ok, look at it from another perspective:

antag steels

antag gets caught by boss

boss demands he hands over goods

antag pushes over the boss and bashes them.

 

To imply me flashing him was escalating, he was literally bashing my face in with a riot shield and I had already been in medical three times with life threatening injuries, and was missing an arm from an earlier door shocking. He cornered me against the door and was hitting me, so he got flashed and of course, I started kicking him - my character was angry. He then escalated by taking out a lawgiver and opening fire on me after running away from where he was laying down, OPENING fire on an unarmed, unarmoured Research Director that he could have taken hostage. He WOULD have killed me if I had not moved out of the path of his final bullets before he was forced to flee by the security outside the window.

The reason it escalated to him using guns was not, me kicking him, it was him throwing me with forcegloves and bashing me with a shield multiple times.

he cornered you against a door you had access to, you could have very easily flashed him and ran off, but you decided to kick the guy who dared attack their boss and who had already stolen lethal weapons instead of running away, you've accepted the consequences of doing this. do not try to bash and antag and complain they shot you.

 

As well, antags are entirely held to escalation expectations! Not as stringent as Security, but the expectations exist in the rules that I copy and pasted to you in our ahelp conversation:

From The Rules

CONFLICT AND ANTAGONISTS

Only escalate conflict in a realistic manner - some characters might overreact, but you would not realistically go berserk or attempt to kill someone if they stole your prized pen, for instance. Again, your character must be motivated enough to commit to more drastic action, as they undertake it.

ON BEING AN ANTAGONIST

Being an antagonist does not exempt you from any server rules. Being an antagonist is meant to give you easier access to character motivation with which to generate roleplay, and access to certain tools to assist with that as well.

•The primary goal of antangonists is to DRIVE A STORY AND TO GENERATE INTERACTION. Be creative when coming up with objectives, and try to do things which will be fun for others, not only yourself. Do not resort to the bare minimums of generating a story through mechanical means, either. This means: no unmotivated/not roleplayed out mass murders, etcetera. See the rules below for further clarification.

•Only resort to killing if it makes sense or drives a story. Randomly killing someone because you’re a traitor will get you removed right quick. This also means that murder for the sake of murder is punishable. However, in certain situations, murder can serve as a tool, if none other applicable. If you’re uncertain, ask for guidance via adminhelps.

 

This was not:

A: a murder

B: without reason

even if they had managed to kill you, you've already stomped on them, and you were trying to arm security, he had a reason for your death. not to mention he could use your DNA as a changeling. was the escalation poor? probably, but it was still there. and they had a reason.

[Azande]

I didn't think he was a ling or a threat at the time, so I had no issue staying to wrestle with him, that's on me, yes.

But it was not a situation where I printed weapons and left, or him stealing. I literally printed it, and he picked it up two seconds later, and I specifically referred to the weapon, so do not try and say he thought I was talking about ALL of his weapons, because I referred to the weapon by name .

I was arming two security officers with a weapon each, to deal with a sol commando and the AI.

He was not a target of Security, as he had not antagged all round.

[Azande]

As well, it was attempted murder and would have been charged as such.

Any time you shoot more than three times at someone with lethal ballistics, you intent is to KILL.

[DatBerry]

I didn't think he was a ling or a threat at the time, so I had no issue staying to wrestle with him, that's on me, yes.

But it was not a situation where I printed weapons and left, or him stealing. I literally printed it, and he picked it up two seconds later, and I specifically referred to the weapon, so do not try and say he thought I was talking about ALL of his weapons, because I referred to the weapon by name .

I was arming two security officers with a weapon each, to deal with a sol commando and the AI.

He was not a target of Security, as he had not antagged all round.

 

As well, it was attempted murder and would have been charged as such.

Any time you shoot more than three times at someone with lethal ballistics, you intent is to KILL.

 

This was a paranoid alien that was doing illegal activity during code red, it's very easy to get paranoid even OOCly that security will be just around the corner.

I don't think applying police regulations on firing weapons would be valid on someone as already mentioned. someone who was panic firing after getting up from being flashed and kicked. not to mention, due to how slow rates of fire is, you can't fire in burst of two shots, thus you will have to go with firing till the target is down when you're forced to use lethal weapons. not like this would apply in this situation.

[Azande]

He had the time to try and tell the gun to fire 'high explosive' rounds at me, luckily he did it wrong - you think his intent was not to utterly destroy me still???

[DatBerry]

He had the time to try and tell the gun to fire 'high explosive' rounds at me, luckily he did it wrong - you think his intent was not to utterly destroy me still???

 

I didn't know that, but it doesn't completely invalidate his actions either, was it bad escalation? yea, probably. was his reasons to want you dead not enough? debatable. was it rule breakingly bad? I don't think so.

There is a certain point where rules can only get so strict and yet be noob friendly. not everyone is able to roleplay an antag to your standards from the get go, the important part is that they learn and improve, you can talk to them in OOC, forums or discord but I don't think it's staff's job to micromanage RP when it doesn't break the rules.

[Azande]

I didn't know that,

 

So you admit you failed to actually investigate the issue, or talk to the other player about their side, and instead just made a judgement on the few words that I told you. Thanks!

It is not really appropriate to talk to people like that in LOOC or Discord (a lot of people will tell you off in LOOC if you say ANYTHING about their character or their play) , and is definitely moreso the place of the admins.

[Scheveningen]

You can still make your case without sounding like a dick about it. Calm down, Xander.

[Garnascus]

Datberry i think you where being unfair to xander. If you actually told them to recite to you the definition of powergaming and then tell you how they broke then i hope you will steer the conversation in a healthier direction next time. As far as the call itself goes though i really do not see an issue here. The changeling was aware you where giving weapons to security which is his direct opponent. The changeling then instigated a scuffle over a weapon which ended in you fleeing from being shot with a lawgiver.

Notice how he didnt just pull out his weapon and gun you down. He escalated it from non-lethals to lethals. I also think it was fair of him to not chase you down and husk you. I assume he was quite capable of doing that.

[DatBerry]

So you admit you failed to actually investigate the issue, or talk to the other player about their side, and instead just made a judgement on the few words that I told you. Thanks!

 

neither you nor the changeling mentioned it at any point at all, I don't have access to full server logs and the part of logs i was given didn't show him changing the mode

 

It is not really appropriate to talk to people like that in LOOC or Discord (a lot of people will tell you off in LOOC if you say ANYTHING about their character or their play) , and is definitely moreso the place of the admins.

 

If someone is a constant shitter and they refuse to improve or listen to critique, then there is the player/character complaint sub forums.

 

Datberry i think you where being unfair to xander. If you actually told them to recite to you the definition of powergaming and then tell you how they broke then i hope you will steer the conversation in a healthier direction next time.

 

I told them to cite the powergaming rule so they can figure out why it didn't fall under it on their own, instead of just telling them it's not, instead xander told me I'm just a trial and haven't even read the rules and cited conflict rules instead, when they were arguing that stocking up on weapons as an antag was powergaming. It was prime time paranoia and the only other staff member not afk was busy, and I was handling two other ahelps alongside xander's. so him using ad hominem and moving the goal posts instead of understanding what i was trying to say stretched me thin.

[Azande]

neither you nor the changeling mentioned it at any point at all, I don't have access to full server logs and the part of logs i was given didn't show him changing the mode

 

 

The point of an investigation is to collect information that neither party shared initially, or forgot to make known. I don't know what moderators are able to access (whether localized logs are available) or what, but I'm sure there is some method to do so.

Onto your response to Garn in regards to me, you asked me to define powergaming and apply it to this situation, I would say that powergaming has a wider definition than just knowing more than your department, it also includes playing to win. I did insinuate/state that I did not believe you have read the full rules (tbh, I don't think most players have, perhaps not even staff), and that as a trial, you are not used to applying the rules.

So, what I cited you were three to four excerpts from the rules that I believe, the player/character had violated/broken. You responded by saying none of those included the definition of powergaming, however that was not the point, I highlighted good parts of the rules I believed the antag to have avoided.

I armed up two security officers who were vocally tasked with hunting down the Sol Commando, there was also a rogue AI at the time, the ling should have been aware if there was any time he could get away with his crimes, it was now.

[DatBerry]

The point of an investigation is to collect information that neither party shared initially, or forgot to make known. I don't know what moderators are able to access (whether localized logs are available) or what, but I'm sure there is some method to do so.

 

the only logs moderators can access are attack logs via var view, that's about it. the server logs i got from TT were for the confrontation before the fight, as your and the ling's story on how the fight went down, there was no reason for me to assume you or the ling were lying or hiding anything.

 

Onto your response to Garn in regards to me, you asked me to define powergaming and apply it to this situation, I would say that powergaming has a wider definition than just knowing more than your department, it also includes playing to win. I did insinuate/state that I did not believe you have read the full rules (tbh, I don't think most players have, perhaps not even staff), and that as a trial, you are not used to applying the rules.

So, what I cited you were three to four excerpts from the rules that I believe, the player/character had violated/broken. You responded by saying none of those included the definition of powergaming, however that was not the point, I highlighted good parts of the rules I believed the antag to have avoided.

 

as i said in my first reply, I was a full moderator before retiring, I've seen how rules were applied, applied them myself and was involved in discussing staff policies in admin/mod meetings. I did answer you how the ling did not break the other rules afterwards, because they had a reason and escalation. and I believe my decision was echo'd by garn here.

 

As far as the call itself goes though i really do not see an issue here. The changeling was aware you where giving weapons to security which is his direct opponent. The changeling then instigated a scuffle over a weapon which ended in you fleeing from being shot with a lawgiver.

Notice how he didnt just pull out his weapon and gun you down. He escalated it from non-lethals to lethals. I also think it was fair of him to not chase you down and husk you. I assume he was quite capable of doing that.

 

 

I armed up two security officers who were vocally tasked with hunting down the Sol Commando, there was also a rogue AI at the time, the ling should have been aware if there was any time he could get away with his crimes, it was now.

 

Even if security was not after him at the moment, he still had reasons to go after them, that sol commando may have very well been the other ling he had teamed up with shortly after your engagement, and even if he wasn't he had a very good reason to not want security armed with science weapons that flay brains.

The gamemode was paranoia, and i believe there was atleast 5 lings and traitors in total along with a malf AI. the round had been escalated to code red fire fights in the hallways and the ling didn't really have the time to start a dialogue with you while the station was burning down.

I think I've addressed all the points you've brought up now.

[Azande]

I'd like to drop this complaint.

[Faris]

Locking and archiving per request.