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[Resolved] Player Complaint - Ward Sagan


Guest Marlon Phoenix

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

BYOND Key: Jackboot

Game ID: bRm-bhAG

Player Byond Key: Pisest

Staff involved: House of Synth (answered my later questions)

Reason for complaint: Pisest's character, Ward Sagan, hung himself in the little lobby area on the surface area of the station, during a wizard round. His body was hanging from the ceiling over a stool right next to a public hallway, immediately outside the elevators. My character, Jawdat, spotted him when moving to the shuttle for CT and stopped to pull the firelocks to prevent on-lookers from gawking and call security to the scene. Because the round was ending it didn't go anywhere.


The round was wizard and as far as I know Ward Sagan did not speak to the wizard. From what I saw they had a long talk with the station chaplain, Feros, and that was it. Their suicide was the result of apparently canon interaction between crew and himself. He then committed suicide and said that he never agreed that it was canon.


I do not think it is fair or reasonable to kill yourself during normal interactions with people and then wipe it away as non-canon. Acts of conflict are usually canon unless voided by all parties involved. I do not want to walk into a suicide scene during a, for example, an extended round then be told it never happened. You can't do something as terribly dark and uncomfortable as hang yourself in a public area after fighting depression then go "jk im fine :)" later. That is very bizarre.


If I am wrong and this action was the result of antagonist interaction or on the periphery of it then fine but if Ward Sagan hung himself because of normal encounters and the player is saying it's not canon then that is very unreasonable. I wouldn't want the suicide retroactively made canon on Sagan but I do want to make sure pisest understands the rules on canonity and the weight of his actions during regular non-antag stuff.


Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation?

I assumed it was valid at the time and did not ahelp. When I saw it was wizard I was a little suspicious and asked [mention]HouseOfSynth[/mention] if the suicide was valid and they said it didn't look like it.

Approximate Date/Time: November 9th at 2:38 am.

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As the player of Ward Sagan, I had planned on trying to RP out the depression a bit more before I attempted suicide. With the incoming CT, I didn't really have as much time as I would have liked to speak to anyone about it at length IC given I had 13 minutes before the round started and I had not even started the plan for suicide.

With little time left, I had planned that I would start a last-ditch suicide attempt and for people to come up the elevator, since I saw a bunch of people standing by the elevator along with the wizard before I went to the surface. It was there I'd hoped the AI or one of the crew would notice and do something about it. Unfortunately, everyone was preoccupied because of the wizard who was at the elevator lift on the main level during that 5 minute period. Antag was more interesting at the time I guess. It's not that I don't understand canonically, but I feel that if the antag had not been around to disrupt the flow of traffic, someone would have stopped Ward or at least asked how he was doing.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

That is an unfair and very unusual method of handling canonity and ramification of character death. If you don't have time to suicide properly then don't do it. You can't put it on other people to prevent your character from doing this - it is your character and you control what he does and his motivations. I'll set aside the heavy baggage of playing through depression and suicide in our multiplayer roleplaying game and just address it by repeating that it's very unfair that you subjected me to all that baggage only to retcon it.

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It's also a bit unfair to assume people don't make mistakes in their execution of roleplay events and have to be openly chastised in a complaint over it.

 

I'll set aside the heavy baggage of playing through depression and suicide in our multiplayer roleplaying game and just address it by repeating that it's very unfair that you subjected me to all that baggage only to retcon it.

 

'Unnecessary baggage'? You walked past his corpse hanging from the rafters, your character did what they needed to in order to prevent the suicide victim displayed in public from creating a scene, you called security to handle it but then the round ended shortly after, right? Your character did what was reasonable in IC but I don't think you're doing what's reasonable OOCly if you feel the need to call out this player in a complaint over such a thing that is barely problematic. This doesn't really affect you and could've easily been resolved if you prodded the contacted admin to speak to the player about it and then asked later about the resolution, but it seems you're skipping steps here.

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Technically, what happened here was canon, so your character should be dead, but we don't force these things on characters unless stated. This is the reason why you're required to ahelp before self harm or suicide, which you didn't in this case, otherwise you'd be told of the conditions of permitting you to do this.


So, NOT I'm going to force you to canonize this action, but I will be applying a warning due to the breach in rules. In the future, you're required to ahelp any instances of self harm or suicide for staff approval.

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I would like to offer an option for the character to return as playable via a supervised inpatient round. The idea is that Ward would be cloned but be confined for observation and treatment to the medical sub-level. I would offer to provide this treatment with my psych character Jack Tanner. I had previously had an extended session with Ward and discussed his depression at length, so it is a natural fit. Also I would hate to lose Ward's character in medbay due to this unfortunate situation.


EDIT: I did see the unedited post by @Sharp but still offer an extended counseling/inpatient session if desired.

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I would like to offer an option for the character to return as playable via a supervised inpatient round. The idea is that Ward would be cloned but be confined for observation and treatment to the medical sub-level. I would offer to provide this treatment with my psych character Jack Tanner. I had previously had an extended session with Ward and discussed his depression at length, so it is a natural fit. Also I would hate to lose Ward's character in medbay due to this unfortunate situation.


EDIT: I did see the unedited post by @Sharp but still offer an extended counseling/inpatient session if desired.

 

As far as I'm aware. Suicides don't get cloned lore wise, not just on the station.

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Well, apologies for not Ahelping before self-harm. I read the rules once when I started on this server about 3 months back but have not checked them again since; besides bwoinks from admins of course citing them. I just try to operate on common sense and things like "Would he do it?" type questions. As for expecting people to pick up the IC baggage, yeah I figured the AI who saw it go down would report it to security and security might come robust Ward's drunk ass back into a more well-conditioned, sober state, and eventually the chaplain who sparked his depression spiral would be called into question, but I'm assuming security had their hands tied with other matters or nothing was reported by the AI.

Anywho, apologies if I breached the rules in some way, it was certainly not intentional for me to not Ahelp before self-harm. I never thought something like that would be considered rule-breaking since I'd done it before as a changeling antagonist. I certainly do *not* want to have Ward deaded during this round when I feel had the wizard not been at the elevators on the main level, a different outcome would have occurred.


I'll take that warning no problem though. I understand how it'd be confusing for situations like this. Again, sorry.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

I don't know why this complaint got the attention of clucking hens from the peanut gallery. Other than I appreciate how this complaint was handled. Glad it could be sorted out.


We have not allowed characters to be cloned from suicide for a long time, and cloning is not really done for aurora crew off the actual aurora station. If you die and are not cloned on Aurora, your character is RIP. That has not been a thing for a long time, I think about 2 years or at least a year. That policy of being cloned off station is just random people saying it exists - it's a rumor. ahelping before you commit suicide will definitely make these sorts of things easier.

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I don't know why this complaint got the attention of clucking hens from the peanut gallery.

 

Excuse me, but you are out of line and quite frankly, your attitude sucks. I am involved in relation to having RPed the character's depression. You are the bringer of the complaint, not the responding admin. Act like it.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

I don't know why this complaint got the attention of clucking hens from the peanut gallery.

 

Excuse me, but you are out of line and quite frankly, your attitude sucks. I am involved in relation to having RPed the character's depression. You are the bringer of the complaint, not the responding admin. Act like it.

 

Not you. There was an entire post from a random non-involved non-staff person deconstructing everything I said in relation to why my complaint is invalid. Guess not specifically complaining about them made it seem like I was talking to you? Why I said peanut gallery and not 'those involved in the complaint'.

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We have not allowed characters to be cloned from suicide for a long time, and cloning is not really done for aurora crew off the actual aurora station. If you die and are not cloned on Aurora, your character is RIP. That has not been a thing for a long time, I think about 2 years or at least a year. That policy of being cloned off station is just random people saying it exists - it's a rumor. ahelping before you commit suicide will definitely make these sorts of things easier.

 

That policy needs to be publicly visible where it cannot be missed, then, because not everyone is aware of this nuance and it hasn't been brought up in close to a year or more.


The reason why I deconstructed the complaint is because this is about an issue relating to an RP nuance and not everyone knows about it because this information isn't immediately accessible without crawling through dozens of search results for context, which someone who isn't aware of this isn't going to go out and do.

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Okay, third times the charm. I posted two posts stating this is resolved and gave it ample time, they just didn't post for some reason.


The player in question was given a warning to ask for permission in the future when conducting acts of self harm or suicide. Locking and archiving.

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