Mental Medication Additions

[BurgerBB]

Hextrasenil and trisyndicotin are honestly lacking when it comes to use. I don't think I've ever seen the drug once, and that's likely because the thing is purely cosmetic. This update changes it so that these reagents actually have mechanical implementation when it comes to antagonist interaction. There are various other changes included in this PR, but this change is likely the one that warrants the most discussion.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U75T6ytSt2orHpkIKJmY2wPZ61cfpKNY3piJJ8_9-gs/edit?usp=sharing

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4648

Edited April 25, 2018 by Guest

[Korinra]

Honestly I'd find this interesting, especially if it came with other needs. Like Hexatrasenil begins by giving a drowsy effect, slowing movement to half, then after a while it makes you drop what you're holding constantly. But while under the effect, it would be super hard to be an antag, and unless you get some kind of antidote, like charcoal to absorb it or ipecac to vomit it out, you'll see a message, "You've realized how your actions were wrong! You're antagonistic ways have to stop! [YOU ARE NO LONGER AN ANTAGONIST]". Of course this wouldn't work on things like Vampires, but it might give the psych a reason to TRY it on them from an IC perspective.

Additionally, there would be a moment of, "Do I confess my crimes?" kind of RP. Maybe the Detective already knows your PDA is an uplink, but wants to see if you'll confess that after treatment. Confession? We'll confiscate the PDA and provide a new one, hid that detail? Detainment for a while and we'll take the PDA anyway!

[Scheveningen]

No. These deserve to be removed from the code.

 

"You've realized how your actions were wrong! You're antagonistic ways have to stop! [YOU ARE NO LONGER AN ANTAGONIST]".

 

A message anything like this for a chemical compound would rank among one of the worst things to be added to the game. This harms antagonists and those with loyalty implants. This is not good.

[Kaed]

Like Delta says, no. Stop, cease and desist, don't make things worse than they already are.

https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10966 how about this suggestion instead, though I guess you've already read it, considering you felt the need to link this PR in the thread.

[BurgerBB]

Nah, I think these are great additions to code. They just need to be balanced appropriately.

[Scheveningen]

Were they balanced appropriately when you decided to make junk food give otherwise healthy humanoid beings cardiac arrest upon consumption?

It's dubious to say there's gonna be any balance in being able to subvert loyalty implants or antagonist status with chemicals.

[Sebbe]

If we are to have a chemical that REMOVES ANTAG STATUS make the other add antag status, simple balance.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I'm not going to stop being a traitor because you injected me with an antag antidote. We already have mechanics to remove antagonists through loyalty implants.

[BurgerBB]

I'm not going to stop being a traitor because you injected me with an antag antidote. We already have mechanics to remove antagonists through loyalty implants.

 

The plan is currently this:

As a non-traitor, having the anti-traitor medication itself will prevent you from becoming a rev/cult member, as well as send some cosmetic messages that you are encouraged to follow along with.

As a traitor, having the medication itself will not remove your antag status UNLESS an overdose occurs, that will start a process to remove the antag status. It will be very similar to cult deconversion where the process will be incredibly painful and life-threatening. The player itself has complete and total control to submit if they want.

I don't want to start a power creep where medication becomes a better alternative to adding/removing loyalty implants.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I'm not going to not become a rev because you gave me an immunization. This would be good for LRP servers but the encouragement of your medicine is not enough to overpower my character's passion to see a classless society.

Having the overdose remove antag status encourages overdoses.

Your base level of these medicines is already incredibly powerful. A Chem machine will be more potent and dangerous than the armory.

[sonicgotnuked]

I shall state my shorthand opinon in one word. No

Anyway, all the mechanics that these magical antag status drugs are all something that loyalty implants can achieve. The prevention of converting against cult and rev can be solved through loyalty implants and the removal of antag status will be much the same. What would stop medical creating overdose sized pills to remove antag status? Instead of creating magic antag pills, how about figuring out another rework or simply just removing them?

Another point I would like to adress, antag status is an excuse, not a ruling to fight every step you go. The phycologist could actually roleplay with the cult trying to figure out why people snapped instead of force feeding them some pill. This can be the case with all antags.

[BurgerBB]

ALRIGHTY THEN.

I changed it so that Hextrasenil and Trisyndicotin function more mechanically and more realistically.

Hextrasenil acts like a cult conversion where every now and then, it will ask you if you give in and revoke your antagonist status, while putting you under a torment of pain. The beauty of this medication is that the person who is being overdosed has to be overdosed for at least 120 seconds for the final stages to start kicking in. The final stage has a 5% chance to trigger a prompt every 60 seconds on whether or not you wish to give in. This value is likely too small, and will be changed for future use (Probably around 30% chance or so.)

Trisyndicotin is similar where you'd have to be overdosed for a long period of time for the effects to take place, but there is no prompt to convert. Note that this only removes the loyalty implant, and does not make the person an antagonist of any kind. The drug itself is renamed, and the lore of the drug now makes total and completely sense.

This has not been implemented yet, but Trisyndicotin will only be obtainable by uplinks ;they will not be able to be made. Hextrasenil will likely require a cargo material, such as platinum, in order to be produced. This makes it so that revolutionaries can either target cargo or medical to prevent production of this drug.

[Kaed]

You're really dead set on this idea about the drugs directly interacting with antagonism, huh? I still don't care for this, but we'll look at it on its own merits.

So what I'm seeing here is not, in fact, that this item only works on traitors and revs as you seemed to originally indicate, but that it works on any antagonist, because it's based entirely on their antagonist state, with no refinement involved at all. This results in the nonsensical situation where you can drug antagonists whose resources are based on innate powers rather than equipment, like a vampire or changeling, to make them lose their powers. Because truly, loyalty to Nanotrasen is so powerful that it can change your very alien biology and purge the taint of the Veil from your heathen body.

Nanotrasen is a divine being, right? No? What do you mean it's just the name of an entirely mundane company?

Binary choice popup windows are also extremely awkward when you are not expecting them. It takes over your window and it is possible to accidentally select one of the options without having time to read them because you were typing something for roleplay. It's the nature of the client, and not really something that's fixable, but at least most of the time, you know it's coming when you are on a cult rune or someone walks up to you to give you something, or they have been talking to you about joining their secret revolution for a few minutes.

I also see you plan to rework the other one from an almost on the nose syndicate drug to an entirely on the nose 'syndicate nanites' chemical. Every revision you make strains harder to push your idea of disabling loyalty implants. I can see what you're going for here, because we questioned how a chemical could do this, so you decided to make it a nanite soup instead.

Except that this chemical is supposed to be here for two actual reasons:

-To cure pacifism, a trauma

-To act as an aggression booster and encourage betrayal of your coworkers

So, by doing this, and planning to make 'Syndites' unobtainable outside of uplinks, you have removed the cure for pacifism from the game general in your quest to make this a loyalty implant disabler. Are you going to make a new drug now that cures pacifism? How far are you going to need to strain this just to get what you want?

There is no need for a process that disables loyalty implants so easily. They can be removed via surgery, or by being a fresh clone because hardly anyone replaces a loyalty implant once you clone someone. These work just fine, and aren't hacky and conceptually unstable.

Nor is there a need for constant popup windows to de-antag yourself in the way that normally only admins can do.

Rather than keep trying to patch this idea and add further revisions and new chemicals to compensate, maybe you could just... stop? Go back to making cardox bombs and the other stuff you're working on? Those actually seemed like something I'd want in the game.

[sonicgotnuked]

I would have to agree with Kaed. Out current in game ways to remove implants is supposed to be challenging via getting whoever down onto surgery. Cult already can be deconverted, Rev too if you decide to try talking to the person, and bassicly any other antag via loyalty implant.

[Scheveningen]

Again, no. Stop trying to see this through. You have not once considered the value of the other arguments posted here that are overwhelmingly against this idea.

What's the point in trying to discuss the issues of this suggestion with you if you've barely given the people against this suggestion the benefit of the doubt in regards to their arguments? At this point it is arguably much easier to rabble-rouse people to be against any of your future suggestions compared to trying to have a discussion with you as to why some of your implementations for game development are outright harmful for the roleplay environment being built here.

All you've done for this suggestion is performed minor adjustments to make the proposed feature marginally less like what it was originally in order to make the original criticisms, outdated criticisms. This is an extremely manipulative method of feature development, and you need to actually stop and listen for a change.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Guest

[LordFowl]

Discussion of memes on reddit have no place in the suggestion forums. If you take umbrage with someone's personal conduct you can discuss it with them privately, it does not belong in the suggestion thread. Furthermore, inflammatory and impassioned remarks are likely only to derail the thread into petty squabbling, which will satisfy no parties. Please check your responses.

[BurgerBB]

What's the point in trying to discuss the issues of this suggestion with you if you've barely given the people against this suggestion the benefit of the doubt in regards to their arguments? At this point it is arguably much easier to rabble-rouse people to be against any of your future suggestions compared to trying to have a discussion with you as to why some of your implementations for game development are outright harmful for the roleplay environment being built here.

 

okay lets look at your arguments and what I did to the pr

 

"No. These deserve to be removed from the code. A message anything like this for a chemical compound would rank among one of the worst things to be added to the game. This harms antagonists and those with loyalty implants. This is not good. "

 

since I'm clearly not going to remove this PR because I strongly disagreed with the removal, I lessened the effects of it by making the deconversion of antag very similar to cult, where only antags can submit if they feel like it's within their character to submit during the possible torture of the pill.

 

All you've done for this suggestion is performed minor adjustments to make the proposed feature marginally less like what it was originally in order to make the original criticisms, outdated criticisms. This is an extremely manipulative method of feature development, and you need to actually stop and listen for a change.

 

you are literally criticizing me for listening to feedback and making the appropriate changes. Implementing a new, custom framework for over-time effects so the thing isn't instant isn't just a "minor adjustment", it fundamentally changes both medicines as people are concerned about. I swear, if I outright remove the PR you're just going to accuse me of trying to be a populist.

[Kaed]

The major 'disconnect' here is that you aren't actually listening to the feedback we're giving you. I get it, you liked the idea and you've put work into it. This is one of the issues that can come up when you start work on a controversial project before actually checking if the medium you're making it for is receptive to it.

So, here's the deal. I'm seeing a lot of you retreating into defensiveness, claiming we're unwilling to work with you, that we're unappeasable and just frankly not understanding how you're trying to compromise with us on this. You focus on specific parts of people's arguments that you can dissect and refute while ignoring the rest of the things they are saying, like throwing up a smokescreen. You skate over well-reasoned arguments by not even responding to them. These are all fairly standard tactics for trying to avoid directly addressing the actual problem.

But we're being very clear about our message here, Burger. We do not want this content. We do not want de-antag drugs. We do not want anti-loyalty nanite soup. We've said "No.' In basically every way imaginable, ranging from long discourse about why it's a bad idea to 'I do not care for this' to just bluntly saying No in bold letters. Both here and on your PR. It doesn't matter how you revise the idea, it's the fundamental concept that is causing pushback, not the implementation.

And yeah, there's been a couple people who did sort of like the idea, in one way or another. But that's not the main message I'm seeing here.

So you have a choice at this point. You can either listen to us and work on other things, or you can decide that we're all wrong and continue your PR while ignoring all criticisms. Because frankly I haven't seen much in the way of you actually putting up a real arguement in defense of your idea other than 'I like it, I think it'd be cool, and I'm not removing the PR." while pretending to accept feedback, but actually only selectively listening to the parts that support your ideas.

[Pacmandevil]

The major 'disconnect' here is that you aren't actually listening to the feedback we're giving you. I get it, you liked the idea and you've put work into it. This is one of the issues that can come up when you start work on a controversial project before actually checking if the medium you're making it for is receptive to it.

 

Alrighty boyes lets just shove this little lie down the toilet here.

There wasn't any fucking feedback.

ON THE FIRST PAGE:

First comment likes it, provides a reason why.

Second is "Delet this i don't like it harm antagonis and loyalty despit that bein point?!"

Third is just useless bandwagoning from you without any substance.

Big Ol' Burgey Boye saying it'd be fine if it was balanced.

Delta throwing useless shit from another PR to say their """feedback""" of "delet this" was good and that everything burger does is bad.

Actual (not too in depth) feedback.

Jackboot failing to use imagination in 2d spess where he's a lore nerd

Burger trying to explain this further because apparently nobody can read PRs

Jacboot double-downing on his no imagination.

Notice how there was one actual bit of feedback here, and how it was not even a sentence? whew there's a lot to go off of there.

"delet this REEEEEEEEE" isn't feedback. folks. explain why you're reeing and perhaps someone will actually listen to it.

[Scheveningen]

"delet this REEEEEEEEE" isn't feedback. folks. explain why you're reeing and perhaps someone will actually listen to it.

 

You clearly haven't been reading the github in combination with this thread either. I will point out you hopped into this thread just to insult everyone for their responses in it. Nice one.

Here's something I pinged Burger on discord with, which he's neglected to directly reply to, for some strange reason! It's funny how he complains about a lack of feedback especially when he doesn't even respond to it.

 

.

 

It's dubious to say there's gonna be any balance in being able to subvert loyalty implants or antagonist status with chemicals.

 

This particular point I presented on the very first page went ignored by the OP. The entire concern of how it would affect the non-antag and antagonist dichotomy was just glossed over as Burger made it so that the chemicals instead asked the aforementioned antagonist for their OOC consent to revert their antag status instead.

It is not quantifiable how ridiculous the aforementioned mechanic is. But it sounds pretty ridiculous at first hearing it.

Drugging people with chemicals is not hard. It is just as easy as drawing liquid from a needle, using harm intent and stabbing someone with it as the entire 15 unit solution is injected into them. Who cares if you broke a needle? Being able to drug one person with a significant amount of a solution is incredibly powerful, moreso powerful than hypos.

Loyalty implants were deliberately put into the game and administered roundstart to a few round-sensitive roles to ensure there isn't a possibility of someone becoming an antagonist with almost absolute or near absolute power in the relative interest of the station locale, barring loyalist shenanigans. Loyalty implants are also very useful in the event someone needs to be de-converted from a serious antagonist role while still keeping them working on the station. This is reserved for high payroll personnel, usually, for those who are otherwise indispensable.

And the OP wants to completely shake up this tentative balance by making chemicals screw with antag and loyalty implant status? What is the actual merit of this idea beyond implementing edgy mind-control features, as if being dominated by a vampire wasn't inherently oppressive enough?

But you know, belittle people's arguments, call people salty and otherwise refuse to see the merit in those arguments. Because I've seen more decent justification as to why we should be against the OP's implementation rather than why we should be for it.

Let's even check out Kaed's implementation and what you thought of i-

 

.

Ah, well, what you and Burger thought of it, rather.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4652

I heavily invite both Pacman and Burger as well as anyone else with any stake in this discussion to read the contents of Kaed's PR and compare them in opposition to Burger's, and see what would be far more ideal.

But generally speaking, I find that drugs that emulate psychosis that's left up to the player to roleplay accordingly, based on what their character would do rather than what the player would do, is more of an attractive idea.

 

I don't want to start a power creep where medication becomes a better alternative to adding/removing loyalty implants.

 

Then

D o n ' t

[Pacmandevil]

You clearly haven't been reading the github in combination with this thread either. I will point out you hopped into this thread just to insult everyone for their responses in it. Nice one.

 

That's a rather brash thing to assume, considering the github is one of two good things about Aurora.

Regardless:

There's balance in everything when done right, so your first point is moot. and I've suggested ways of balancing it.... On the github. Such as the chemical's effects only being maintained after long term overdose, which burger is working on in the PR. it's not going to be "ooga booga one needle." So that point will be moot soonish.

 

Drugging people with chemicals is not hard.

 

You're right, that's why it'll require long term usage, likely far more than 15 u from a single needle.

 

Loyalty implants were deliberately put into the game...

Nope. we just got them from the bay base, who got them from the tg base. they're just used like that today.

 

And the OP wants to completely shake up this tentative balance by making chemicals screw with antag and loyalty implant status? What is the actual merit of this idea beyond implementing edgy mind-control features, as if being dominated by a vampire wasn't inherently oppressive enough?

 

That's the plan, yeah. there's already a shitload of "edgy mind control mechanics" in game - including loyalty implants. and these are significantly less oppressive than Vampire's meme win button.

 

Let's even check out Kaed's implementation and what you thought of i-

Your image doesn't work for me, but it's safe to assume that you took a screenshot of me thumbs-downing it as a full indication of my opinion.

Yes, I dislike the PR. good one.

Which I don't do without reading the PR. it's been thumbsdowned for more reasons than just "Xdd they disagree with bURGAeR!"

* It completely changes the theme of the chemicals. which I dislike. Making it just things like increased aggression, instead of aggression towards authority. I agree that aggression towards Nanotrasen specifically is a bit much,

* It changes some of the chemicals to the old fluff chemical tier that add nothing good tot he game.

*It changes the taste to milk for whatever reason.

so I still feel Burger's would be better once it's tweaked.

 

But generally speaking, I find that drugs that emulate psychosis that's left up to the player to roleplay accordingly, based on what their character would do rather than what the player would do, is more of an attractive idea.

Kaed's implementation still has that, but whatever.

 

D o n ' t

 

He isn't. you'll need a shitload of drugs, which will in general be a bit more of a pain in the ass than a spank and bank surgery that takes less than 2 minutes to do. or 12 seconds if you have a loyalty implant.

[BurgerBB]

Your image links are broken, but I had to check my discord for whatever you sent me.

 

 

You mentioned me at 9:48AM in a public channel (cough) on a weekday instead of directly private messaging me and you're complaining I haven't responded to you. Have you considered that given that I may have missed it?

It isn't a powercreep because loyalty implants and holding someone until transfer are the far superior option than using high-risk, expensive, hard to make (the recipe calls for platinum now, as per feedback), hard to monitor medication. In order to even give medication as a non-antag, you'd have to do it realistically and under medical supervision. A book was added as per feedback to remind WHITELISTED Heads of Security and Captain that they can't just give antipsychotic medication to people just because they can. I must also remind you that loyalty implants are super easy to administer, they are just a simple injection while the medication to deconvert an antag doesn't deconvert them instantly, they must wait like 3 minutes and then BE ASKED to be deconverted from antag as per feedback.

The traitor medicine was made to be more realistic in lore as per feedback. changing it from simple chemicals to nanobots that conflict the loyalty implant nanobots. The traitor medicine can no longer be made by anyone, as per feedback. The traitor medicine price was increased as per feedback.

I can't help but laugh, and then cry afterwards, when people say that I'm not listening to feedback. The only feedback I'm working with is "NO THIS IS A DUMB POWERCREEP." and when I try to implement that feedback, I still have people saying it.

[Scheveningen]

Pacman:

 

There's balance in everything when done right, so your first point is moot. and I've suggested ways of balancing it.... On the github. Such as the chemical's effects only being maintained after long term overdose, which burger is working on in the PR. it's not going to be "ooga booga one needle." So that point will be moot soonish.

 

Up front, it's going to be generally less than impactful if you choose to gate its effectiveness by deliberately overdosing someone with the chemical in addition to timegating it. Say they spend 5-10 minutes of their round being OD'd for their antagonist status or loyalty implant status being removed. Something to consider: Isn't it less time-consuming to either implant the antagonist, or just remove the loyalty implant out of someone through surgery, which can be done in much less time if the operating surgeon knows the procedures like the back of their hand?

The original point I held may be moot in the case of timegating it, but another point pops up in which, "Okay, so now this is adjusted to be potentially less optimal than the conventional methods." Which is not necessarily power creep but it behaves in the inverse. Something to consider?

 

That's the plan, yeah. there's already a shitload of "edgy mind control mechanics" in game - including loyalty implants. and these are significantly less oppressive than Vampire's meme win button.

 

I like the phrase, "Less is more" when it comes to introducing features. It's important not to be redundant when trying to add variety. And also important not to completely supplant an existing feature with a new one. Either it overshadows or it is overshadowed. Striking a decent balance is too difficult to reasonably expect and often takes more time than it is worth investing in.

 

Your image doesn't work for me, but it's safe to assume that you took a screenshot of me thumbs-downing it as a full indication of my opinion.

Yes, I dislike the PR. good one.

Which I don't do without reading the PR. it's been thumbsdowned for more reasons than just "Xdd they disagree with bURGAeR!"

 

You pointed out earlier that Kaed was mindlessly bandwagoning on my earlier statements without adding anything to the thread. Which I didn't appreciate and ended up noticing that the same could've been observed of you and Burger via your downvoting of his suggestion. It doesn't matter if it's true per se if Kaed is bandwagoning or if you two are bandwagoning on each other (I personally view it that neither is true), but it's hypocrisy, simply, and I had hoped you recognized it at the very least.

 

It completely changes the theme of the chemicals. which I dislike. Making it just things like increased aggression, instead of aggression towards authority. I agree that aggression towards Nanotrasen specifically is a bit much,

 

I am very much into psychology, see, and I've taken to reading a lot of material on mind-altering drugs recently because it's a subject I plan for in regards to a thesis I'm doing in the near future for academic purposes.

I believe there is more inherent benefit to working towards making mind-altering drugs in the game semi-realistic or at least practical enough that people can feel very much immersed when they get doped up on aggression stimulants. Or inhibitors. Whatever creates an illusionary situation for a player without forcing them to think a specific way but allow them to act in broad terms based on suppression or aggression, respectively to the aforementioned drugs.

If the game gives the associated character certain feedback messages that have more of a general, but broad/vague context, it allows players to improvise based on the situation they're in while they're affected by the drugs. That'd give a little bit of interesting feedback to the player to have some damn fun with getting drugged up by psyche-altering pharmaceuticals.

 

Kaed's implementation still has that, but whatever.

 

I'm drafting up other ideas to along with his idea, as I don't think Kaed thinks his PR is quite finished yet.

Burger:

 

You mentioned me at 9:48AM in a public channel (cough) on a weekday instead of directly private messaging me and you're complaining I haven't responded to you. Have you considered that given that I may have missed it?

 

I pinged you, dammit!

More seriously, I assumed you were perfectly fine with having a discussion over the related channel. My mistake for doing it the wrong way, it does look silly and as if I was demanding an answer from you.

 

It isn't a powercreep because loyalty implants and holding someone until transfer are the far superior option than using high-risk, expensive, hard to make (the recipe calls for platinum now, as per feedback), hard to monitor medication. In order to even give medication as a non-antag, you'd have to do it realistically and under medical supervision. A book was added as per feedback to remind WHITELISTED Heads of Security and Captain that they can't just give antipsychotic medication to people just because they can. I must also remind you that loyalty implants are super easy to administer, they are just a simple injection while the medication to deconvert an antag doesn't deconvert them instantly, they must wait like 3 minutes and then BE ASKED to be deconverted from antag as per feedback.

 

The initial implementation was flat-out powercreep when the PR was put up. You then changed it to be more gradual, to the point where "how gradual" is actually extremely significant enough that what I mentioned before about time-gating makes the power creep work in the inverse. Instead of it being a more inherently powerful and viable feature than what already exists, it seems to have larger potential to just be overshadowed by the more traditional, tried-and-true methods.

So it is still powercreep (especially the OD thing), except the current implementation seems designed to be overshadowed by the existing methods. Does that make any sense?

 

The traitor medicine was made to be more realistic in lore as per feedback. changing it from simple chemicals to nanobots that conflict the loyalty implant nanobots. The traitor medicine can no longer be made by anyone, as per feedback. The traitor medicine price was increased as per feedback.

 

It's fine if it's traitor-available only. More psyche-warping drugs that antagonists can exclusively use is certainly fuel for hilarity, but it brings up a new issue where it somewhat lampshades the mind-slave implants from the other servers. It is obviously not exactly as severe as the mind-slave implants, but given the nuances of how mind-control mechanics work in roleplay, people will have subjective expectations that will lead to IC confusion. A large reason why most other contributors have otherwise stayed away from introducing such themes of having traitors be able to forcibly influence people in such a way, because on the servers that have it, it's not exactly the most positive influence on gameplay due to how generally unreliable in feedback that mindslaving really is. If you happen to influence someone who is not even moderately robust, you will get almost no value from investing resources in influencing them.

 

I can't help but laugh, and then cry afterwards, when people say that I'm not listening to feedback. The only feedback I'm working with is "NO THIS IS A DUMB POWERCREEP." and when I try to implement that feedback, I still have people saying it.

 

Because you can't wipe away every single imperfection or issue with a change. The issue may still exist no matter what you do, or new issues will be created upon addressing the old ones.

[Kaed]

And yet, despite all the rarity and how hard you're making it to get this medicine and utilize it (which is weird, because you're taking it from 'why would anyone not use this' to 'why is this even ever going to be used if it's such a hassle'), there has been no explanation on how it can take away antagonist powers and abilities for characters such as changelings, wizards, and vampires, other than just 'it's a de-antag medicine'.

What you're creating is a panacea chemical in regards to antagonists, painting everything with a broad brush as if every antagonist can be solved with the same solution. They currently can't, and frankly, they shouldn't. 'antagonist' status is something that is largely an OOC concept, and with a few small exceptions, you can't interact with it IC. The ones that can have a plausible reason for allowing them to be removed - a religious exorcism of Nar'sie influence on a crew member, for instance. Even loyalty implants don't actually de-antag you, unless that changed recently. They just make you loyal to NT, which means you can't rabblerouse anymore.

A chemical is a cold, unfeeling substance, and it has no relationship to any concept or ideology. It doesn't think, talk, or have emotional attachments to any set of morals. Assuming that an antipsychotic chemical you made from platinum (or whatever) and truth serum can somehow impress upon every antagonist type in the game that 'what they are doing is wrong and they should stop (being an alien monster)' is lazy design from both a coding and lore perspective. There's really no way to describe such an effect other than 'it's magic, stfu'.

As an aside about my PR, it's definitely still up for refining, but I want to point out that the 'flavors' of these two chemicals were 'paper' and 'freedom' before I tweaked them, both of which are random nouns related to the "NT are evil bureaucrats" meme rather than actual flavors, so I changed them to be actual flavors relating to the chemical effect. For instance, 'warm milk' is generally taste associated with relaxation, which seemed fitting for an aggression inhibitor.

[BurgerBB]

New explinations: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U75T6ytSt2orHpkIKJmY2wPZ61cfpKNY3piJJ8_9-gs/edit?usp=sharing

 

And yet, despite all the rarity and how hard you're making it to get this medicine and utilize it (which is weird, because you're taking it from 'why would anyone not use this' to 'why is this even ever going to be used if it's such a hassle'), there has been no explanation on how it can take away antagonist powers and abilities for characters such as changelings, wizards, and vampires, other than just 'it's a de-antag medicine'.

What you're creating is a panacea chemical in regards to antagonists, painting everything with a broad brush as if every antagonist can be solved with the same solution. They currently can't, and frankly, they shouldn't. 'antagonist' status is something that is largely an OOC concept, and with a few small exceptions, you can't interact with it IC. The ones that can have a plausible reason for allowing them to be removed - a religious exorcism of Nar'sie influence on a crew member, for instance. Even loyalty implants don't actually de-antag you, unless that changed recently. They just make you loyal to NT, which means you can't rabblerouse anymore.

A chemical is a cold, unfeeling substance, and it has no relationship to any concept or ideology. It doesn't think, talk, or have emotional attachments to any set of morals. Assuming that an antipsychotic chemical you made from platinum (or whatever) and truth serum can somehow impress upon every antagonist type in the game that 'what they are doing is wrong and they should stop (being an alien monster)' is lazy design from both a coding and lore perspective. There's really no way to describe such an effect other than 'it's magic, stfu'.

As an aside about my PR, it's definitely still up for refining, but I want to point out that the 'flavors' of these two chemicals were 'paper' and 'freedom' before I tweaked them, both of which are random nouns related to the "NT are evil bureaucrats" meme rather than actual flavors, so I changed them to be actual flavors relating to the chemical effect. For instance, 'warm milk' is generally taste associated with relaxation, which seemed fitting for an aggression inhibitor.

 

did you know that loyalty implants and my medicine share the near exact same code as eachother (https://imgur.com/a/5JkM7zw)

did you know that loyalty implants do not actually remove antagonist abilities