Slime Mutation Reagent Nerfs + Rework

[BurgerBB]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5819

Why I feel this is necessary:

Right. So once you turn into a slime (not a slime person, a slime) you are practically dead and out of the round. You have two options: One, spend your entire rest of the round in xenobiology being studied, or two, spend the rest of the round being a nuisance by farting around, absorbing station pets, absorbing assistants. Once you turn into a slime, that's it. You can't turn back without admin intervention or a wizard.

Both of these are some pretty shit RP and I feel unfit for an HRP server. For all intents and purposes, advanced slime toxin is a instant-killing chem because of this. This PR effectively turns it into more of an HRP esque thing by turning them into a monkey, which, with the proper medication, can be cured.

 

[Diona Gestalt (654)]

Why not make slime status be curable/timed instead, then? 

If xenobiologists randomly mutate people into slimes - bwoink them same as for randomly bombing people out of existance. Would you nerf maxcups for deleting people?

If xenobotany has this chemical in too many plants - add more chemicals to lower changes/lower it's probability/make botanists use safety meassures.

If thorny lv7 vines might make you into a slime... there was exactly 1 such thing seen in server existing, admin said. Too rare to cause trouble.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Diona Gestalt (654)

[BurgerBB]

10 hours ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

Why not make slime status be curable/timed instead, then? 

If xenobiologists randomly mutate people into slimes - bwoink them same as for randomly bombing people out of existance. Would you nerf maxcups for deleting people?

If xenobotany has this chemical in too many plants - add more chemicals to lower changes/lower it's probability/make botanists use safety meassures.

If thorny lv7 vines might make you into a slime... there was exactly 1 such thing seen in server existing, admin said. Too rare to cause trouble.

Maxcaps actually take effort to make.

[Scheveningen]

You're wrong there. You can make them in 10 minutes.

You're also taking what makes xenobiology, xenobiology, by opting for a lazy solution to an issue that is hardly even a problem.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Scheveningen

[LordFowl]

Black slime gel also takes effort to make.

[BurgerBB]

Saying that a PR is a lazy solution is a lazy response and will be ignored. It does not build upon the PR nor does it provide alternatives to solving a problem that you admit that's a problem.

Let me repeat my points to we can get back to an actual argument.

A monkey instead of a slime is great because monkeys can be cured with a somewhat difficult to make medication or the use of a genetics machine. Advanced Mutation Toxin is practically an instant killing chemical because you're irreversibly changing someone's species and marking them for death. There is nothing HRP about this and given how sensitive everyone is to death, it's rarely used in an HRP environment, which is why I think it will see more use if it just turned people into monkeys.

 

[Scheveningen]

It is a lazy solution. I do not need 10 paragraphs to describe how this change is unnecessary, nor do I need an essay to describe how fallacious your reasoning is.

..and there's plenty 'HRP' about it, it has infinite potential for fun and conflict. You're taking on the most fundamental components of a slime's DNA structure and fashioning it into a tool to warp the DNA of other living beings into slimes. Being turned into a monkey is incredibly boring, because monkeys die if they get remotely sneezed on with force-based weapons.

It's a tool used by antagonists, largely, to produce intelligent player slimes. And player slimes are INCREDIBLY fun and robust when used properly, moreso than monkeys and how limited they are. Why do you want to remove that? Because "muh HRP?"

This is the pussywagon keys all over again. If we keep following this silly path of using 'muh HRP' as the sole justification for removing things there won't be anything left for people to enjoy using.

You're taking a really fun tool out of the game just to do what genetics would already be capable of doing were it left in the game.

Sliming yourself is actually something you can do as an antagonist currently to cause a lot of havoc and hilarity with slime reproduction if you wanted. Slime gameplay is seriously fun because you're mostly invulnerable to the typical methods people use against antagonists.

Removing things just because it doesn't get enough use is not fun for the people who have yet to get antagonist in the xenobiology role.

18 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

given how sensitive everyone is to death

this isn't a reason to remove any mechanic from the game and replace it with something that makes using it worse off.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Scheveningen

[BurgerBB]

Quote

It's a tool used by antagonists, largely, to produce intelligent player slimes. And player slimes are INCREDIBLY fun and robust when used properly, moreso than monkeys and how limited they are. Why do you want to remove that? Because "muh HRP?"

You're taking a really fun tool out of the game just to do what genetics would already be capable of doing were it left in the game.

Sliming yourself is actually something you can do as an antagonist currently to cause a lot of havoc and hilarity with slime reproduction if you wanted. Slime gameplay is seriously fun because you're mostly invulnerable to the typical methods people use against antagonists.

This isn't HRP and fit for an HRP server.

[Scheveningen]

You haven't provided any objective reasoning as to why it isn't fit for an HRP server.

[BurgerBB]

Where is the roleplay and escalation for an antag turning themselves into a slime and then being a nuisance? There is none. You'd be hard pressed for anyone to create an actual working gimmick involving them turning themselves into a slime mob and wreaking havoc.

[Scheveningen]

2 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Where is the roleplay and escalation for an antag turning themselves into a slime and then being a nuisance? There is none. You'd be hard pressed for anyone to create an actual working gimmick involving them turning themselves into a slime mob and wreaking havoc.

Citation please! You are only so far making statements and establishing it as if it is true.

[GreenBoi]

25 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

This isn't HRP and fit for an HRP server.

Then tell me, how is turning into a monkey fit for HRP? We're a goddamn science-fantasy server that follows and continues off of their own universe's rules, half of the shit you see is just handwaved sci-fi technobabble that doesn't even have much of an explanation besides "Oh, it's a very complicated formula that's simplified through computers!" or "Bluespace is VeRy MySteriOUS!!!1"

 

Just randomly shouting "TURNING INTO SLIMES ISN'T FIT FOR HRP" won't do much once you take into account: A) This happens very rarely, B) Roleplay CAN be generated if the person turned into the slime acts out from the others, either by not caring to eat or some other gimmick they have in mind. Slimes themselves are also "VeRy MySteriOUS" so no one knows what the fuck they can and can't do.

 

1 minute ago, BurgerBB said:

Where is the roleplay and escalation for an antag turning themselves into a slime and then being a nuisance? There is none. You'd be hard pressed for anyone to create an actual working gimmick involving them turning themselves into a slime mob and wreaking havoc.

This is also nonsense. Through this logic, you should also remove turning into a Lich and wreaking havoc, or becoming a Cult construct. Sometimes it's not about the escalation to it, but rather how it's handled given that this is OOCly antagonist-exclusive. Very rarely will it be used by a non-antagonist unless special measures call for it. I agree with Schev with the statement that this PR is very unnecessary. It's not like turning into a monkey isn't already accomplishable (Science can still print Genetics Board but due to the ban on Super Powers, no one really does it unless they want to turn someone into a monkey or if there's a certain powergaming ling around).

 

I will only support this when you do the following:

-Actually give a reason in which turning into a slime who can talk TCB doesn't enable roleplay

-Explain how becoming a Monkey will do any better considering there'd be a handful of Scientists who don't know Genetics considering it isn't a focused field on the Aurora

[Scheveningen]

Not to mention how monkeys lose their ability to speak TCB and thus can't speak. They have to make gestures to be able to roleplay, whereas slimes telepathically speak to people.

[Pratepresidenten]

I think sliming in itself is fine as is. But the issue that prompted this thread should be addressed instead. The fact that xenoflora plants has a chance to mutate into this insta-slime toxin that turns you on touch without any prior warning. The incident wasnt the cause of careful breeding and harvesting of the extracts, it was a random mutation.

Not gonna say I know shit about xenoflora, but this seems like a really dumb thing to instantly delete someone from the round and turning them into this, giving them limited options that doesnt strike others as shit plays and grief.

I dont know if xenoflora has any protective gear, or gloves or if those even protect against some of these mutant strains. Some prick, some release spores? I think that maybe this should be looked into instead of hacking at the toxin itself.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Pratepresidenten

[Scheveningen]

So essentially this thread was born off the 1 in a million occurrence of RNG combining with something else even more problematic than this and not the inherent nature of this mechanic itself.

I love the precedents we set with suggestion threads, but if what Prate said is true, we need to start scrutinizing suggestions now.

[BurgerBB]

The toxin is the problem, not the randomness issue. 

 

The equivalent is a sewage pipe leaking into a city. What I'm suggesting is closing the sewage pipe while others are suggesting just using sandbags. Sure placing sandbags around the city solves the problem but what I'm proposing actually fixes the root issue.

Edited December 23, 2018 by BurgerBB

[Scheveningen]

No, the issue is that the toxins was administered and incorporated by an AI-driven vine mass WITH instant-sting administering in addition to BEING ABLE TO HOLD THOSE REAGENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Context is important. And you're going about this in the most foolish way.

[BurgerBB]

Also as a reminder I given all my points and I don't have to explain anything further. If you read the rest of the thread, you will understand my stance on this, but I'll repeat this once again for those who don't like reading.

 

Slimes;

- Can't transform back

- Kill/Capture/Contain on Sight

- Incredibly lethal when attacking people

- Unbalanced health and movement speed

Monkeys:

- Can transform back via medicine or genetics

- Not kill on sight

- Lethal as a punch

- Balanced Health and movement speed

 

[Scheveningen]

Monkeys cannot transform back with any medicine currently on the wiki. Genetics has been stripped barebones to the point where it'd be surprising to see if anyone actually manages to get the DNA analyzers back into a department and manage the components essential to doing work to reverse monkeyizing.

You're essentially giving antag xenobios a punishment for daring to try to exploit the fruits of xenobiology for antagonistic purposes because you either got owned by RNG or you were a bystander to seeing people get owned by RNG.

Or rather, essentially, you're taking away something useful from them for something they had nothing to do with directly.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Scheveningen

[CampinKiller]

The issue that caused this wasn’t even caused by an antag, but some poor sob who got random stung on an extended round, and then proceeded to LRP around the station and attack anyone and everyone.

 

The ability for that to happen should go away. Whether it’s this way, or taking away the instant fuckup, it needs to go. To the people in here worrying about antags being affected, when was the last time you saw an antag do anything with slimes that didn’t either:

 

1. Turn into a LRP mess 

2. Go from 0 to 100 in the span of about 30 seconds, escalation-wise

 

hell, when’s the last time slimes were even used by an antag?

 

 

[Scheveningen]

You guys need to stop using allegorical examples as if it's a solid argument. Just because you haven't seen somebody use it well doesn't mean it's impossible to be used well.

[Ornias]

1 minute ago, BurgerBB said:

I don't have to explain anything further.

 

you should get this on a macro if you don't have one already.

permanence isn't bad, especially when it's in a manner that can almost solely only be caused by antagonistic action. we've had one case of it coming about incidentally, and if we want to argue that that's grounds to change a feature, then we may as well start removing anything that can have a tangible effect on the round.

someone being reverted into a monkey is silly and comical, whereas someone being turned into a carnivorous slime is scary and deadly. something isn't Low-RP because there's no speel surrounding it, or because it takes someone out of the round. something's Low-RP when it's unbelievable and doesn't drive the co-operative story. being turned into a monkey-man is unbelievable and doesn't drive the story. being turned into a monster the crew has to put down does.

 

nobody's going to take this proposal seriously until you take their criticisms seriously.

[BurgerBB]

1 minute ago, Scheveningen said:

Monkeys cannot transform back with any medicine currently on the wiki. Genetics has been stripped barebones to the point where it'd be surprising to see if anyone actually manages to get the DNA analyzers back into a department and manage the components essential.

You're essentially giving antag xenobios a punishment for daring to try to exploit the fruits of xenobiology for antagonistic purposes because you either got owned by RNG or you were a bystander to seeing people get owned by RNG.

I'm done arguing with you.

You have proven that you cannot argue civilly by calling suggestions put forth "foolish" or "lazy".

You have proven that you cannot be bothered to read anything I put forward as I explained several times in this thread that there is medicine that can reverse this, specifically Ryetalyn.

You have proven that you are not here constructively because you have not given any appropriate feedback that could improve or built upon this project thread.

You have proven that you're being overly manipulative and dramatic by claiming that this punishes people despite it affecting no one except someone's desire to wreak havoc with slimes.

 

Any chemical that transforms you instantly, irreversibly, into something that is either undesirable, overpowered, or both is unfit for HRP. Even an admin-only chemical, the zombie virus chemical, isn't instant-transform. The xenomorph chemical isn't instant-transform. I'm pretty sure that wizard transformation staff was also nerfed as well, but I would like someone to correct me if I was wrong.

 

 

[GreenBoi]

14 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Also as a reminder I given all my points and I don't have to explain anything further. If you read the rest of the thread, you will understand my stance on this, but I'll repeat this once again for those who don't like reading.

 

Slimes;

- Can't transform back

- Kill/Capture/Contain on Sight

- Incredibly lethal when attacking people

- Unbalanced health and movement speed

Monkeys:

- Can transform back via medicine or genetics

- Not kill on sight

- Lethal as a punch

- Balanced Health and movement speed

 

You ever think the reason slimes are that way is because transforming into a slime is supposed to be a hard feat? Even if you're a Skrell Xenobio or a Traitor Borg, it still takes half an hour to get to black slimes (if RNGesus is even REMOTELY generous that is, other than that, it takes about an hour, nearly the entire shift) and it's not like there aren't more effective, less detrimental methods for a Traitor to use. Why potentially fuck over your life by becoming a slime when you can, i dunno, USE ANY TOOL FROM YOUR UPLINK instead?

 

Now, I'm not saying not to remove the feature due to it rarely being used. I'm against this purely because it's meant to be damaging due to the toughness to get into. Even the Vault you can break into within like 5 minutes if you're a Ninja, Wizard, or Traitor. Sure, you might not survive leaving, but you can still do that. Black Slimes are meant to take a while to get to and you're expected not to live for longer than maybe 10 minutes? 20 if you're good.

On a related note, as Ornias said. Permanence does not automatically equate to LRP. Turning it into a timed chemical just makes it tedious and boring and all it'd encourage is for the AI, Engineering, or Borgs to find the slime, lock it into a room and wait the OOC amount of time until it's over, then take the person to the Brig for HuT or maybe even mental treatment for why the fuck they'd do Self-Experimentation so carelessly. PERMANENCE makes it more threatening both ICly and OOCly. If a Xenobiologist tests it on a  monkey and sees that it's long-lasted and/or permanent, they'll think hard ICly "Should I really do this?". OOCly, you'll have to have known how things might end as soon as you decided to roll with slimes as a Xenobiologist. This issue really isn't much of an issue, I find it exaggerated to get people to support it. The only part of this PR I'd support would be the "10% each tick" part but even then, I think it should be upped to 35 or 40%, maybe even 60% so it's still a pressing issue.

[BurgerBB]

Slimes can crawl through vents and have moment speed that rivals a tajara running. Just for clarification, I'm not talking about the slime humanoid race, but the slimes themselves.