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Kaed

Cargo Retool

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Posted (edited)

The cargo bounty system appears to have been lifted wholesale from another server with much lower standards.  It's full of nonsense and memes and the rewards are all astronomically high compared to the economic value of items in cargo, which is the currently only benchmark we have for the value of items on the server other than merchants.  In some cases, it was possible to make huge profits simply ordering an item in cargo and sending it to the ODIN.  This is not balanced nor logical.

As such, I have overhauled the bounty system. Summary of changes:

-All values of bounties have been drastically reduced for sanity purposes. For the most part, all of them have been either reduced to 10%-50% of their previous value or retooled to reward a small amount based on the number/rarity of items in the bounty. Some more difficult to obtain items have higher values, but nothing like the old ones.  No longer can you cut up a few carrots grown in hydroponics and make over half the value of the cargo account instantly.  Items that can be ordered from cargo will always net you a loss in value, so you can't just game the system using the shipping.
-Anything that was an antagonist or illegal item has been removed.  Items in the bounty list should be possible to obtain by working with crew members, and not require a certain round type antag to be possible. Some items that encouraged illegal/questionable activity, like 'soylent green' or 'corgi meat' are also off the list now.  The ODIN is run by humans who are not insane.  They are not going to ask for human or dog meat, cyanide or night vision goggles.
-All items that are unique and belong to command staff/security have been removed, due to a tendency for cargo to waste large amounts of time badgering them to give up things like their captain's spare or telebatons.  These items should not be handed to cargo, nor should we be giving the cargo team a reason to feel they're obligated to it.  The ODIN should not be asking high profile items to be sent back to them from a remote station.
-Any bounty that was excessively silly or memey (talk of cow riots or tajaran uprisings, etc) has either been redescribed to stop being so, or has been removed if it is unsalvagable.

 

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6359

Edited by Kaed

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Posted (edited)

Thank you, I just never did them. Saw the same ones over and over and just seemed pointless anyway. Now they might be more realistic, might be more fun to do them. Now I just have to actually play. The memey ones were just annoying anyway. +1, remove ones that require like 8 potted plants too or 8 soaps. Just stupid, don't need interaction just to steal NT property and send it to them.

Edited by Hendricks

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You seem to have removed the earmuffs and monkey cubes and kebabs bounties, which are doable, while not removing the monkey hide or chainsaw or 30 cheese honkers or the 5 briefcases which are... far less so. You also left the "tank of plasma" as "plasma" instead of phoron. And the revolver (which, funnily enough, I think you can cut a capgun and have it count) which is also "unique" to the detectives that shouldn't be handed to the cargo team, as per your third point.

 

I'm curious as to why you decided to keep the frostoil bounty, but not the slime jelly? They would both take a Xenobot or Xenobio. Or space drugs, come to think of it. (And rezadone was kept. I don't think I've ever filled a rezadone bounty. Jeepers.)

 

You left 13 pancakes, but removed 3 kebabs. It feels like... you don't play a whole lot of cargo to know much about the bounties and how they get handled amongst the crew.

 

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 17:50, Hendricks said:

Thank you, I just never did them. Saw the same ones over and over and just seemed pointless anyway. Now they might be more realistic, might be more fun to do them. Now I just have to actually play. The memey ones were just annoying anyway. +1, remove ones that require like 8 potted plants too or 8 soaps. Just stupid, don't need interaction just to steal NT property and send it to them.

They will still be the same bounties. There will actually be fewer, so you will see the same ones repeated more, and they're worth less. More bounties should be added to counteract this hit to the fun meter. By that I mean, I've literally never seen bounties asking for the stuff in the /bot or /science lists.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Conspiir said:

You seem to have removed the earmuffs and monkey cubes and kebabs bounties, which are doable, while not removing the monkey hide or chainsaw or 30 cheese honkers or the 5 briefcases which are... far less so. You also left the "tank of plasma" as "plasma" instead of phoron. And the revolver (which, funnily enough, I think you can cut a capgun and have it count) which is also "unique" to the detectives that shouldn't be handed to the cargo team, as per your third point.

 

I'm curious as to why you decided to keep the frostoil bounty, but not the slime jelly? They would both take a Xenobot or Xenobio. Or space drugs, come to think of it. (And rezadone was kept. I don't think I've ever filled a rezadone bounty. Jeepers.)

 

You left 13 pancakes, but removed 3 kebabs. It feels like... you don't play a whole lot of cargo to know much about the bounties and how they get handled amongst the crew.

 

They will still be the same bounties. There will actually be fewer, so you will see the same ones repeated more, and they're worth less. More bounties should be added to counteract this hit to the fun meter. By that I mean, I've literally never seen bounties asking for the stuff in the /bot or /science lists.

-Monkey cubes: You can order them already in cargo, so it seemed like a pretty pointless bounty.  Why would you pay the Aurora more for monkey cube when you can order them cheaper from external shipping. Removed as such.

-Earmuffs: Too goofy of an item to reasonably be ordered from a remote station.  Also, irreplaceable and of sharply limited supply on the map.  Removed as such.

-Monkey hide: I feel like I've seen people make it. Am I wrong? Do you want me to remove it?
-Chainsaw: I remember seeing this one and planning to remove it.  Looks like I forgot.  Thanks for reminding me

-Honkers: It felt like somewhat of a challenge for cargo to go around gathering up all the cheese honkers, and they git rewarded a bit more than the total cost of 30 cheese honkers, and who is going to even miss them?  So I left it in.  Do you want it removed?
-I overlooked the plasma thing. I'll change it

-Revolver: Sure, I can take it off.

-Frostoil.  Not an illegal substance, hard to get, but possible to do.  Rare enough to try and get xenobio/xenobot to make some.  Acceptable.

-Slime Jelly: This is 100% a poison.  Why would they be asking for poison?  Removed, along with cyanide.

-Rezadone: Overlooked that.  Will remove. 

-Kebabs: I don't think they're even in this code. I checked before removing it, but maybe I missed it. 

Also, you're right, I don't play cargo. I'm going off general information on what is feasible bounties. Do you have suggestions for things you want added/removed?  Because 'put it back to how it was' is not acceptable here. It NEEDS changes.

Edited by Kaed

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Posted (edited)

I would literally rather die than go to every vending machine in the station, pay for as many cheesie honkers as exist, still not get enough and have to ask a janitor to restock it, and then load all 30 bags (if you manage it) onto the shuttle and not even get back the investment because the miniscule amount goes to the cargo account instead of your personal account that you use to buy things from vending machines.

 

I think it might greatly aid your PR to actually go and collect the bounties for a several rounds. Common sense can only get you so far if you haven't gone up to a chef and asked for 13 pancakes only to have them excrete tears for how many eggs that takes and say no while whipping up a quick batch of kebabs (which yes, we do have in the code) for the other bounty. Plus, with how reduced the rewards are (even if they may make more sense to you), doesn't mean it'll be enjoyable to go out and get them only to get 200 credits into an account. That covers a full shipping fee, not even counting anything you might need to order. Shit is expensive. Don't think of it like the station is being paid for the objects; think of it like the assets are being reshuffled. All of it is still NT money, the Aurora is just trusted to have a bigger share.

Edited by Conspiir

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

I would literally rather die than go to every vending machine in the station, pay for as many cheesie honkers as exist, still not get enough and have to ask a janitor to restock it, and then load all 30 bags (if you manage it) onto the shuttle and not even get back the investment because the miniscule amount goes to the cargo account instead of your personal account that you use to buy things from vending machines.

 

I think it might greatly aid your PR to actually go and collect the bounties for a several rounds. Common sense can only get you so far if you haven't gone up to a chef and asked for 13 pancakes only to have them excrete tears for how many eggs that takes and say no while whipping up a quick batch of kebabs (which yes, we do have in the code) for the other bounty. Plus, with how reduced the rewards are (even if they may make more sense to you), doesn't mean it'll be enjoyable to go out and get them only to get 200 credits into an account. That covers a full shipping fee, not even counting anything you might need to order. Shit is expensive. Don't think of it like the station is being paid for the objects; think of it like the assets are being reshuffled. All of it is still NT money, the Aurora is just trusted to have a bigger share.

I would literally rather die than play cargo for the sake of doing bounties.  I hate the idea of bounties and I hate playing cargo.  But I recognize that they need something to fill their horrible lives as (one of) the worst roles on station, I just think it needs to be balanced properly and not be full of memes.

That being said, thank you for your feedback, I'll listen to it even if I hate playing cargo.  I'll take another look at values.  Perhaps double al/mostly the current rewards I have.  I might also redo some recipes, because if pancakes are so hard to make they cause your chef to cry, the pancakes haven't been coded right.  They're literally just flour and eggs and milk batter you pan fry...

Edited by Kaed

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13 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I would literally rather die than play cargo for the sake of doing bounties.  I hate the idea of bounties and I hate playing cargo.  But I recognize that they need something to fill their horrible lives as (one of) the worst roles on station, I just think it needs to be balanced properly and not be full of memes. That being said, thank you for your feedback, I'll listen to it even if I hate playing cargo.  I'll take another look at values.  Perhaps double al/mostly the current rewards I have. 

And you're entitled to that. Just as I am entitled to say you may be approaching it with a bit of a heavy hand because you don't fully understand how it works, by your own admission. The memes should definitely be pruned out, but adjusting the rewards and what bounties are kept/discarded needs more tuning. Particularly since there isn't that much variety anyway.

 

17 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I might also redo some recipes, because if pancakes are so hard to make they cause your chef to cry, the pancakes haven't been coded right.  They're literally just flour and eggs and milk batter you pan fry... 

They're made with berries, which give only 2 per yield, and eggs, of which there are only 2 dozen. It takes 1 berry and 1 egg per pancake, but you make them in batches of 2. That means to make 13 pancakes, you actually need 14 eggs and 14 berries. Not the scope of this PR, but do know this. Would you be willing to play chef and consult chef players before making a PR changing recipes?

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8 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

And you're entitled to that. Just as I am entitled to say you may be approaching it with a bit of a heavy hand because you don't fully understand how it works, by your own admission. The memes should definitely be pruned out, but adjusting the rewards and what bounties are kept/discarded needs more tuning. Particularly since there isn't that much variety anyway.

 

They're made with berries, which give only 2 per yield, and eggs, of which there are only 2 dozen. It takes 1 berry and 1 egg per pancake, but you make them in batches of 2. That means to make 13 pancakes, you actually need 14 eggs and 14 berries. Not the scope of this PR, but do know this. Would you be willing to play chef and consult chef players before making a PR changing recipes?

Seems reasonable enough, both things you say here.  Again, though, what do you think should be added?

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26 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I hate the idea of bounties and I hate playing cargo.  But I recognize that they need something to fill their horrible lives as (one of) the worst roles on station

I'll listen to it even if I hate playing cargo.

If this isn't a joke, and even if it is, it's a shitty one, you need to chill out a little. Jesus.

The removal of memes are good. Nice. Though, from what I've looked at on Github, you're lowering the values so low they seem almost worthless to complete. Especially the mechs, which bring in around ~3000 only. Seems a bit too low.

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The rewrites of the messages are very welcome. As for everything else, it is pretty apparent that the author of the PR does not play cargo or a lot of other departments.
A lot of bounties are now basically worthless to complete, especially mech bounties. I get lowering the bonus for food and the like, but it should have been done on a more selective basis rather than a blanket lowering of everything to absurdly low values because it's "realistic". If you don't like bounties and don't play cargo because of it, that's fine. A lot of people enjoy doing them, though. I enjoy doing them as non-cargo, even. With this PR, there will be essentially no incentive for me or others to do so.
As for removed bounties: monkey cubes, earmuffs, night vision goggles and appendices are all possible to obtain on station and make for sensible bounties with cross-departmental RP. I especially don't get the removal of the appendix from bounties since it was mostly done using cubed monkeys and nobody had any ethical qualms. It's for a delicacy, after all.
The toolbox message doesn't make sense because sent toolboxes can be empty.
Singularity engines are still used in-universe and can even be set up on the station, so I don't see a problem with mentions of it appearing in cargo bounties.
Instead of removing slime jelly because it's poison, I'd rather change the message so that the jelly is sent to Upsilon. It's a pretty experimental reagent.

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Please explain whether you have used any framework to decide the new prices of items or bounties. Replacing ad hoc values with other ad hoc values for the sole reason of them sounds like an unnecessary nerf, especially when made by someone who admits to never playing cargo (and hating playing cargo, no less!). Allow me to explain some interesting choices you've made.

A stunprod bounty of one unit yields 130 credits.
In comparison, two security bots (2x stun baton + + 2x robot arm 2x helmet + 2x prox. sensor + roboticist engagement to assemble) yield 500 credits.
Yet still, two medibots - two cyborg arms, empty medkits, health analyzers and prox sensors - yield 4k (unchanged!)
Even better, for posibrains:
2 units are required for a reward of 1000 credits.
For the two, the materials cost is 2 sheets metal, 1 sheet glass, 1 sheet silver, 1/2 sheets gold, 1/2 sheets phoron, 1/5 sheets diamond. Assuming 100% efficiency at the protolathe level (not a given), the raw materials cost is:
2*5+1*5+1*50+(1/2*125)+(1/2*200)+(1/5*500) = 327.5 cr.
For a reward of 1000 - 327.5 = 672.5 cr, you expect:
1) For mining to actually mine all the minerals required,
2) For research to research the levels required to print the posibrains, upgrade their machinery to use mining's minerals efficiently, and actually print the posibrains to you (and hand them to you!).
This is two departments involved. For 673 credits profit. Likely less. Do you believe that fulfilling this bounty will be fun, satisfying or at least drive good RP?

Sindorman already commented on github a little about mechs, but I'll give you a similar analysis for good measure.

The Ripley yields 2500 cr and will require its parts (that again, assume 100% efficiency which is not a given), 5 sheets metal, 5 sheets plasteel, one central control module, one peripheral control module. You can sell it and complete the bounty without the drill and clamp.
Let's break it down.
Circuitry: 40 sulfuric acid (provided for free onstation, discarded), 2 glass.
Ripley chassis: 10 metal.
Ripley torso: 20 metal, 7 1/2 glass.
Ripley arms: 25 metal.
Ripley legs: 30 metal.
Total: 90 sheets metal, 9.5 sheets glass, 5 sheets plasteel.
The plasteel is unexportable and we need to establish a raw cost, which is two steel, one platinum, ergo 135 cr.
90*5+9.5*5+135*5 = 1172.5 cr materials cost.
This provides a better profit margin than posibrains at 1327.5 cr at arguably the same workload (assembling one is a bit of work for the roboticist). You still need research levels, but less than for a posi.

I'd tentatively call this bounty acceptable. However, answer the following: Why is an Odysseus 200 cr more expensive despite being made of literally the same materials?

Similarly, you should make Ripley/Ody exportable without bounties at the base prices you're suggesting (maybe make the Ripley 200 cr more expensive so it levels with Ody and thus makes sense) - the market for them is so immense lore-wise that robolizards can make a living off of building them, and a corporation of NanoTrasen's size would have an even easier time selling them or just using them on another facility. Leave combat mechs bountyable BUT make sure you balance for materials costs (seriously, a Gygax takes 2.5k to build its armor alone - 10 diamond sheets are no joke).

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When i put in cargo prices with arrow the rule of thumb was to have prices correspond to demand, whether or not its bought in bulk, and whether or not its part of a set and how much balance goes into considerations for sets. (Weapons and armor)

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1 hour ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

When i put in cargo prices with arrow the rule of thumb was to have prices correspond to demand, whether or not its bought in bulk, and whether or not its part of a set and how much balance goes into considerations for sets. (Weapons and armor)

Well, I have to correct you here.
Bounties were added much later than the rest of cargo and are currently not based on the payment-scheme we applied to cargo items.

They also wouldnt really fit in there, because a bounty is placed for a item that is currently in high demand for whatever reason.
-> And items that are in high demand usually have a higher price.

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