Staff Complaint - Pratepresident

[TheOrleans]

BYOND Key: TheNewOrleans

Game ID: b1B-cqlj

Staff Byond Key: Pratepresidenten

Reason for complaint: 

-Don't be a dick. We're all here to have fun, not fight and argue with assholes. Don't ruin the game for everyone else, and use common sense. This includes anything from attacking other people, starting arguments over nothing

-Only escalate conflict in a realistic manner - some characters might overreact, but you would not realistically go berserk or attempt to kill someone if they stole your prized pen, for instance. Again, your character must be motivated enough to commit to more drastic action, as they undertake it.

 

This traitor librarian, Saunan, who was roleplaying a bald, old-man, with some vision problems, decided to break my skull cause I didn't place a book back in its shelf. He told me to do it yelling at me and I said 'make me'. He got up (remember how he was acting before), and broke my skull with his cane, moving like a fucking ninja to avoid any defense from my side. I could hit him twice with my welding tool, but he knocked me down, leaving me blind and with severe damage. Once I was knocked down, he kept hitting me until I was nearly killed, pulling me away to keep hitting me.

 

Being a traitor is not a reason to fuck someone's round without a proper reason or proper escalation. I didn't have a chance to say a word, and he didn't say a word either, he just got up and hit me with his cane until he broke my skull, and continued to hit me when I was knocked down, ending my round (I wasn't cured in the following 20 minutes or 30 minutes, and then the shuttle came, so, literally, he ended my round)

In my opinion, there was no legitimate reason for that insane escalation, and saying that he was a traitor so he can kick people out of the round for nothing stablishes a dangerous standard

Approximate Date/Time:  05/06/2019  19:00 CEST time

Evidence/logs/etc: I don't have them

Additional remarks: None

Edited June 5, 2019 by TheOrleans

[Arrow768]

Well, two things.
If you want to contest the ruling of a staff member, you need to make a staff complaint.
Please update the formatting and let me or a mod/min know once thats done so it can be moved.

The second thing that confuses me is: (Shortened a bit for clarity)

Quote

This traitor librarian, [...], decided to break my skull cause I didn't place a book back in its shelf. He told me to do it yelling at me and I said 'make me'. He got up [and hit me]

Quote

I didn't have a chance to say a word, and he didn't say a word either, he just got up and hit me with his cane until he broke my skull

From what I see in that complaint, you taunted him by not returning the book and then told him to "make you do it".

[TheOrleans]

4 minutes ago, Arrow768 said:

Well, two things.
If you want to contest the ruling of a staff member, you need to make a staff complaint.
Please update the formatting and let me or a mod/min know once thats done so it can be moved.

The second thing that confuses me is: (Shortened a bit for clarity)

From what I see in that complaint, you taunted him by not returning the book and then told him to "make you do it".

What I mean by no words, is after he hit me in the first time, he didn't roleplay anything or said anything before starting to hit me, I was just writing and he started hitting me. 

 

Format changed for moving

Edited June 5, 2019 by TheOrleans

[Pratepresidenten]

3 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

-Only escalate conflict in a realistic manner - some characters might overreact, but you would not realistically go berserk or attempt to kill someone if they stole your prized pen, for instance. Again, your character must be motivated enough to commit to more drastic action, as they undertake it.

This bit is mainly aimed at at non-antags, as antags have much more leeway and they can escalate a lot harder than allowed as a non-antag.

The reason I deemed this as fine was because: 1) They were a traitor, 2) They didnt kill you. 3) You essentially taunted them with a childish "Make me" after they yelled at you to put the book back where it belonged.

Antags are already scared enough to make a move in fear of being bwoinked without a 10 minute back and fourth with their target. And your attitude towards them made this encounter valid, even if your interaction was rather brief. And he wasnt exactly bashing you in a maintenace tunnel on the sublevel, so his capture would be relatively easy.

So to summarize: You acted like a snooty brat, and you got your shit kicked in by a pissed off librarian.

[TheOrleans]

10 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

This bit is mainly aimed at at non-antags, as antags have much more leeway and they can escalate a lot harder than allowed as a non-antag.

The reason I deemed this as fine was because: 1) They were a traitor, 2) They didnt kill you. 3) You essentially taunted them with a childish "Make me" after they yelled at you to put the book back where it belonged.

Antags are already scared enough to make a move in fear of being bwoinked without a 10 minute back and fourth with their target. And your attitude towards them made this encounter valid, even if your interaction was rather brief. And he wasnt exactly bashing you in a maintenace tunnel on the sublevel, so his capture would be relatively easy.

So to summarize: You acted like a snooty brat, and you got your shit kicked in by a pissed off librarian.

I didn't get my 'shit kicked by a pissed off librarian'. I was ejected from the round by an antag who decided that all his gimmick was to be a 'pissed off librarian' that nearly killed someone for not putting a book back on a shelf. The only reason for not dying was the fast response from medbay.

I repeat, you are stablishing a very dangerous standard if you allow antags to start ruining people's round for trivialities such as 'not placing a book back on his shelf'. If you think that attitude deserves to have your skull broken, and be totally removed from a round, and the admin who reviews this incident supports you, you will have complaints regarding illegitimate escalation quoting this incident, and the ones who write their complaints will be totally correct, because you are literally going against the rules.

-Don't be a dick (Don't ruin the game for everyone else, and use common sense. This includes anything from attacking other people, starting arguments over nothing, which is EXACTLY what happened)

-Only escalate conflict in a realistic manner (but you would not realistically go berserk or attempt to kill someone if they stole your prized pen), and I think that not placing a book back where it belongs shares a lot with 'stealing your prized pen'

Also, 'give more freedom for the antags so they are not scared' is not a reason to allow them to kick the other players out of the round. This case is even worse, because the antag wasn't even trying to drive the round or performing a reasonable antag gimmick, he just abused his antag status to beat the shit out of someone, he was literally waiting for it.

I would say 'bored player' instead of 'pissed off librarian'

Edited June 5, 2019 by TheOrleans

[SatinsPristOTD]

I was, unfortunately, on for this event as my borg Dem-OS. Even for a traitor "gimmick" it was-- really subpar. We're talking "scraping the barrel" levels of subpar. Even after he beat the character to near death, the RP that "developed" from it didn't really push a narrative, it didn't build up a good gimmick, it didn't apply any sort of hRP to the situation. Basically, the sacrifice of Orleans character was not worth the low quality "gimmick" we received.

Honestly, it was so poor, I thought the guy was a greytider from a lRP server. Our antags should not be held to greytide standards.

I did ahelp it, and the gimmick was "okayed" simply on the basis that the guy was an antag. I even said to prate "He better be an antag because this is shit RP"... in HOPES the antag had an ace up their sleeve.

[Pratepresidenten]

I will agree to that their explosive reaction was very short sighted and poorly thought out. Absolutely trashing someone in the open for the snide remark is just asking to get caught and thrown in the brig. I was hoping something else would come of this, perhaps another traitor would make a big deal of it, or offer the victim a way to retaliate through illicit means.

There's always a hope something good can come out of a poorly planned volatile action, but didnt seem this was the case at all here.

[TheOrleans]

51 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

I will agree to that their explosive reaction was very short sighted and poorly thought out. Absolutely trashing someone in the open for the snide remark is just asking to get caught and thrown in the brig. I was hoping something else would come of this, perhaps another traitor would make a big deal of it, or offer the victim a way to retaliate through illicit means.

There's always a hope something good can come out of a poorly planned volatile action, but didnt seem this was the case at all here.

I think that's one of the main issues regarding this complaint. That feeling of: 'I got my shit beaten and I was thrown out of the round for nothing'

[Garnascus]

So lets see if i understand this series of events.

1. Librarian is an angry traitor

2. OP uses a book from the library

3. Librarian angrily demands the book be put back onto the shelf

4. OP declines saying "Make me"

5. Librarian attacks OP with his cane. Causing so much damage OP has to spend a lengthy time in medical being healed.

This is about as clear cut an IC issue as i could imagine i am afraid to say. 

[TheOrleans]

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

So lets see if i understand this series of events.

1. Librarian is an angry traitor

2. OP uses a book from the library

3. Librarian angrily demands the book be put back onto the shelf

4. OP declines saying "Make me"

5. Librarian attacks OP with his cane. Causing so much damage OP has to spend a lengthy time in medical being healed.

This is about as clear cut an IC issue as i could imagine i am afraid to say. 

Librarian attacks OP with a cane, breaking his skull, knocking him down, dragging him away to keep hitting way, causing enough damage that OP has to spend all the time that was left of that round nearly unconscious, blind, never being healed.

All because he didn't place a book back in its shelf and the librarian was a bored traitor that wasn't doing anything to drive a story or help to drive the round, or developing a gimmick, so he used the first reason he had to beat the shit out of someone, going against his own gimmick of old man with vision problems, moving like a ninja and destroying another player without any roleplay right before the beating, during this, or after this, so ejecting a player from the round was totally useless.

[Garnascus]

1 minute ago, TheOrleans said:

All because he didn't place a book back in its shelf and the librarian was a bored traitor that wasn't doing anything to drive a story or help to drive the round, or developing a gimmick, so he used the first reason he had to beat the shit out of someone, going against his own gimmick of old man with vision problems, moving like a ninja and destroying another player without any roleplay right before the beating, during this, or after this, so ejecting a player from the round was totally useless.

Its extremely easy for us to analyze the effects of things after the fact and try to say whether or not something was or was not good RP. It does not necessarily mean someone's actions where wrong. In this case i think its extremely unfair of you to absolve yourself here. You where quite literally inviting conflict by saying "make me". He is an antag and thus is allowed to try to kill people if he has a reason. I understand you did not enjoy this at all and i am empathetic to that. I do however still believe this is an IC issue. 

[TheOrleans]

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

Its extremely easy for us to analyze the effects of things after the fact and try to say whether or not something was or was not good RP. It does not necessarily mean someone's actions where wrong. In this case i think its extremely unfair of you to absolve yourself here. You where quite literally inviting conflict by saying "make me". He is an antag and thus is allowed to try to kill people if he has a reason. I understand you did not enjoy this at all and i am empathetic to that. I do however still believe this is an IC issue. 

No one enjoys being ejected from the round, the thing is that sometimes, ejecting someone from the round is legitimate if there's a reason and a goal behind it

You are saying he had a reason, that 'make me', it's a poor, VERY POOR, reason, but, maybe it's acceptable if there's a goal the antag wishes to achieve through the action (beating the sh** out of me)

Antags are not allowed to kill people without a reason, and the reason has to be valid, and if it's valid or not depends on the gimmick too, right?

-Reason to beat me: It's there, poor, but it's there

-Motivation to beat me: I don't find it. Trying to kill someone gets you in a lot of trouble, a traitor has to have a goal, a gimmick, an aspiration. What was the goal for this traitor? Was doing what he did good for him in order to achieve his goal? It was clear he would end up arrested (he didn't have any plan after beating me, no escape plan or anything), if I'm not wrong, he did it in front of an officer (Nova), so he would end up in Brig, and this would probably make achieving his goal very difficult, or at least, delay it (unless his goal could be achieved by getting arrested, which is not the case)

-Actions according to his gimmick: Error 404. Not found. Again, he was acting as a very old man, but then he moved like Flash up and down, very robust, indeed. Was he acting like an old man calling guys ma'am to annoy them, so they would react badly, so he could kick their ass?

 

Last question Garn. Are you saying that killing someone without any story around or gimmick around this is something acceptable for an antag?

I would like to know if the player had any goal, aspiration or gimmick. I think this would help quite a lot to understand if he was planning something, or if he just took his chance to beat someone to death using his antag status as excuse (this is how it feels, and I'm not the only one who posted about his poor RP)

Edited June 7, 2019 by TheOrleans

[Garnascus]

1 hour ago, TheOrleans said:

Motivation to beat me: I don't find it.

You would not put the library book back. 

1 hour ago, TheOrleans said:

as doing what he did good for him in order to achieve his goal? It was clear he would end up arrested (he didn't have any plan after beating me, no escape plan or anything), if I'm not wrong, he did it in front of an officer (Nova), so he would end up in Brig, and this would probably make achieving his goal very difficult

All of this is for him to decide. 

 

1 hour ago, TheOrleans said:

Again, he was acting as a very old man, but then he moved like Flash up and down, very robust, indeed. Was he acting like an old man calling guys ma'am to annoy them, so they would react badly, so he could kick their ass

He doesn't have to play combat badly just because he is old. 

1 hour ago, TheOrleans said:

Are you saying that killing someone without any story around or gimmick around this is something acceptable for an antag?

No

 

1 hour ago, TheOrleans said:

I would like to know if the player had any goal, aspiration or gimmick. I think this would help quite a lot to understand if he was planning something

You refused to put the book back.

You told him "make me"

He started a fight with you

You lost the fight very very badly. 

I am afraid this situation is that simple to me.

[TheOrleans]

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

You would not put the library book back. 

All of this is for him to decide. 

 

He doesn't have to play combat badly just because he is old. 

No

 

You refused to put the book back.

You told him "make me"

He started a fight with you

You lost the fight very very badly. 

I am afraid this situation is that simple to me.

Make me is the reason.

Reason and motivation is not the same imo.

Reason is the last action, the one that makes you do whatever you do.

Motivation is the background and the context, yeah, I didn't put the book back, but, what was the motivation around? How was that helpful to him to achieve is goal or gimmick, Garnascus?

It's for him to decide both the goal and the gimmick, but it's your job now to judge this, and you are evading it, not even trying to investigate it, the player didn't even write a thing in this post.

 

I'm going to write a last comment on my opinion about the incident, since I think this post is coming to an end. I've wanted to keep this away from the thread to see how the incident developed, but, after seeing it, I have to ask about this:

-In medbay, I was told that the player who did this was Alberyk.

-I spoke to Alberyk on discord and asked him if he was the one playing the character (won't do it again, Prate gave me a verbal warning to not do it ever again) and 2 minutes after this, Prate gave me the warning. Why would Alberyk care if he wasn't the player?

-The player, Saunan, who I have never EVER seen (I've been playing here for a good year already), didn't even comment in this post which is (ultimately) a complaint against him. And he doesn't even have a forum account with his name.

-(No offense in this one) You haven't even tried to investigate what happened, or EVEN ASKED the player to write his reasons here, which is SO standard procedure since, as I said, this is, a player complaint against him.

 

Put everything together and try to think how I feel about this right now.

Would you want to clarify this?

Think how strange it sounds to not even have the player I am complaining against, write a post here.

Maybe it's just that I'm overthinking, and since I have faith in this staff, I wondered if I could have an answer regarding this.

If the answer is a no, I don't want to clarify this, and since you have already judged this, as the Head Admin you are there's nothing else I can say.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by TheOrleans

[Garnascus]

15 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

Reason and motivation is not the same imo.

Reason is the last action, the one that makes you do whatever you do.

Ok but this isnt a distinction i make 

15 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

n medbay, I was told that the player who did this was Alberyk.

Based on the IP and CID of both Alberyk and suanan this is pretty much impossible. 

 

15 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

-(No offense in this one) You haven't even tried to investigate what happened, or EVEN ASKED the player to write his reasons here, which is SO standard procedure since, as I said, this is, a player complaint against him.

No, this is a staff complaint. 

15 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

Think how strange it sounds to not even have the player I am complaining against, write a post here.

The player was banned for unrelated issues. 

[TheOrleans]

7 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Ok but this isnt a distinction i make 

Based on the IP and CID of both Alberyk and suanan this is pretty much impossible. 

 

No, this is a staff complaint. 

The player was banned for unrelated issues. 

If the player is banned, this staff complaint has no sense

When I open a staff complaint, usually (all the ones I have opened for the moment at least) it's not against the staff member but against the punishment, so this was, indeed, a player complaint

Lock and archive whenever you want

And thanks for taking your time to clarify the issue

Edited June 8, 2019 by TheOrleans