Make all harm intent hand-to-hand attacks default to punching

[Scheveningen]

Because xenos, that's why. At the moment, Tajarans/Unathi/Vaurca default to claw attacks rather than bludgeoning with their fists. This is an issue because they essentially have very powerful knives that can't be disarmed, but this is not so much a problem as the fact that this is enabled for them by default, so they can very easily kill someone in self-defense or in a brawl, the two most common RP-oriented fights.

The aforementioned species should be defaulted to standard bludgeoning punch attacks instead, and have to switch their attack type to claws. This makes them easier to scrutinize in an IC sense because they have far less excuse for essentially stabbing/slicing someone up like this.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

They can pull their punches.

[Carver]

From an RP standpoint this makes sense, as they should be very well looked down upon for acting like savages and resorting to claws in any sort of bar brawl or domestic dispute.

+1

[Pratepresidenten]

This topic has been made twice already, and it kinda just fizzles out. You posted in one of them aswell @Scheveningen

The main arguments were xenos cant punch as they cannot retract their claws, hence cant make a fist without injuring themselves.

I for one would love an alternative so I can sock some fucker in the face without getting hit with an arterial spray and be brigged for attempted murder.

[Kaed]

I prefer clawing as a default. Punches should be for weak humans and skrell.

Also I have never seen a claw fight 'accidently' result in death. Not unless they keep attacking the victim.

[Scheveningen]

10 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I prefer clawing as a default. Punches should be for weak humans and skrell.

Also I have never seen a claw fight 'accidently' result in death. Not unless they keep attacking the victim.

The idea is that a claw attack is more escalated than a punch. A fist-full of a punch is of greater escalation than a grapple. A grapple is more escalated than a push or disarm. Seeking to unbalance/disarm someone is pretty much the initial form of escalation.

A punch is a bludgeoning for the most part, but you mostly have to do 1.5x more punches than claw attacks to be at the threshold of potentially killing someone, as claws can hit vital organs upon exceeding thresholds of damage for an external organ. Since a single claw attack is nearly twice as damaging as a single punch, you should have to intentionally switch your H2H attack option to claws to escalate force from mere elbowing and slamming to direct usage of hand-knives.

[Kaed]

7 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

The idea is that a claw attack is more escalated than a punch. A fist-full of a punch is of greater escalation than a grapple. A grapple is more escalated than a push or disarm. Seeking to unbalance/disarm someone is pretty much the initial form of escalation.

A punch is a bludgeoning for the most part, but you mostly have to do 1.5x more punches than claw attacks to be at the threshold of potentially killing someone, as claws can hit vital organs upon exceeding thresholds of damage for an external organ. Since a single claw attack is nearly twice as damaging as a single punch, you should have to intentionally switch your H2H attack option to claws to escalate force from mere elbowing and slamming to direct usage of hand-knives.

It's standard for those races though. I don't approve trying to standardize attack methods into a human attack type, because you'll just get situations where we are never allowed to claw people, because people will act like it's attempted murder if you do.

The way it is now it's a racially flavored standard melee attack that deals more damage, and you're responsible for the damage you do, rather the attack type you do. 

I have never seen clawing people as serious as you seem to think it is. It's possible to pull your punches if you want, but that shouldn't be the standard. I never saw unathi as getting into fist fights. When they attack someone they're serious about it.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Kaed

[Scheveningen]

16 minutes ago, Kaed said:

It's standard for those races though. I don't approve trying to standardize attack methods into a human attack type, because you'll just get situations we are enough we are never allowed to claw people, because people will act like it's attempted murder if you do.

Much like a knife, you shouldn't be using your claws in a simple brawl. But in many cases when security has to break up a bar brawl, they're going to slap whoever did the most damage with the hardest time/fine, and whoever got their claws out as substitutes for punching is gonna get screwed the hardest because that's their species feature by default. But when an Unathi suddenly gets assaulted in a bar brawl, they have to delve into their settings by default to go to kicks and by then, their assailant has gotten a few hits in. The gist of it is that this becomes a saving grace for Unathi who have to defend themselves all of a sudden but also don't want to default to slashing/stabbing/cutting.

You should have to toggle on claw attacks as a pre-meditated thing. Not so much as a "to help ICly moderate Unathi/Tajarans/Vaurcae who do get their claws out" but moreso to not set them up for failure because their default species feature replaces the typical harm intent punch with a set of hand-knives that cannot be disarmed without extreme measures. Also, those claws can cause internal bleeding (in the first strike, even - doesn't always happen but when it does, it's really shit for the person who has it) which is an incredibly serious condition. Using claws should be something you have to set intentionally, that way it's easier to convey intent to onlookers and your target in regards to what force you're using on them, without worrying about the OOC mechanics involved of what's default and what's not. It's a subtle way of helping communicate the severity of the situation without instantly setting up any xeno up as the bad guy for defending themselves with a default attack far more powerful than a typical punch.

The status quo right now is that xeno players have to consciously remember each round to set their attack type to be anything other than claws. Which is not something they can comfortably do as well if they get battered by someone all of a sudden and they want to reciprocate a brawl. It's an uncomfortable amount of artificial difficulty to force a player to have to change their settings every round they play a xeno with claws, because their default attack is so much deadlier. That's objectively not a good status quo, especially not for newer players who don't want slice-and-dice as their default attack type.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Pratepresidenten]

I dont really want punching as a default, I want it as an option for when a time comes when I want to cause a blood-less injury.

Besides, it makes sense for a clawed xeno to retaliate with sharp force if they're ambushed or caught off guard, instead of not using weak-ass punches. Punches would be the option to choose if you're getting into/instigating/getting instigated to fight someone over whatever have you shenanigans.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Pull ? your ? punches ?

Otherwise use rp to have your character reconsider fighting an alien with sharp talons. It's not their fault if you pick a fight.

[Conspiir]

2 hours ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Pull ? your ? punches ?

Otherwise use rp to have your character reconsider fighting an alien with sharp talons. It's not their fault if you pick a fight.

Pulling punches causes no damage. There are times when you want to cause damage, but not so much they bleed violently and medical and security lose it. That (correct me if I'm wrong) is the intent of the suggestion.

 

As for the suggestion: punching, I think, does not make much sense for how clawed they are. As humans will break their thumb if they punch incorrect, Taj and Unathi will slice their palms if they punch incorrectly. Maybe some kind of (not default) backhanded bitchslap would make more sense. Otherwise, yeah, pretty hard to punch if your claws prevent you from doing so.

[Kaed]

If you don't want to get clawed don't engage in combat with the giant alien that has claws. Run away or don't start a fight.

This isn't difficult people. We don't need to implement a native nerf on the races that have stronger melee attacks because some people don't want to them to hurt this much. I don't mind it having an option to have a lower damage attack but it should not be default. If you have deadly claws, it takes consideration and forethought to not use them in combat. This is simulated perfectly fine by it not being the default to not use them.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Kaed

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Conspiir said:

Pulling punches causes no damage

It will stun them after sufficient hits. Unathi can floor people in sparring by holding punches.

I have to echo Kaed as well. Use fear rp of the talons and either find an alternative to sparking a fight with them or accept the consequences of doing unarmed combat with an alien with sharp talons.

[Carver]

2 hours ago, Kaed said:

This isn't difficult people. We don't need to implement a native nerf on the races that have stronger melee attacks because some people don't want to them to hurt this much. I don't mind it having an option to have a lower damage attack but it should not be default. If you have deadly claws, it takes consideration and forethought to not use them in combat. This is simulated perfectly fine by it not being the default to not use them.

Have you read the suggestion? There's no nerf, you can still use the claws by simply switching to them. By all means, clawing out a person at the company you worked at would and should get you arrested and fired for acting like a savage ill-befitting a very human society. It should not be the 'go to' unless you're a fucking pirate or criminal.

[Scheveningen]

As above. You could literally, at round-start as an antagonist Unathi, turn on your claws and you won't be scrutinized on the OOC side. You know, help new players not get screwed over for being new as a non-antag Unathi for example?

Edited June 24, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Because then you'll take them for granted. Having them start with punches being pulled for your benefit is silly.

[Carver]

15 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Because then you'll take them for granted. Having them start with punches being pulled for your benefit is silly.

There is a mechanical difference between non-claws and pulled punches. The latter does no damage and has generally less stunning/disorientating effects, the former simply doesn't do cutting damage and thus won't cause extreme bleeding and easy internal injuries.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Carver
Or in simpler terms, the latter won't get you attempted murder charges as you should get for using claws.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Yes. It gives unathi a handicap when fighting you in unarmed combat if they dont want to use lethal intent.

 

Knowing all of this why would you pick a fight with a unathi?

[GreenBoi]

Eh, I don't see a point in this. If you don't want them to get hurt too much, just don't keep fighting them once you see some blood go down. Currently, all the races that have claws (Tajara, Unathi, Vaurcae) can run a decent distance away while the other person will be busy bleeding. Most people who start bleeding in a fight, usually don't want to stick around until the end of it since big ugly cuts are usually worse in the long run than a boo boo.

[Kaed]

3 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

As above. You could literally, at round-start as an antagonist Unathi, turn on your claws and you won't be scrutinized on the OOC side. You know, help new players not get screwed over for being new as a non-antag Unathi for example?

Unathi are whitelisted.  There is 0 legitimate reason an unathi player should go in ignorance of their own racial capabilities, if the whitelist system actually works.  They should have read about their own lore and racial bonuses, right here, in fact, line 2.

If you are caught off guard with your ability to 'slash and have the possibility to knock someone down' then that is your own fault for pretending you read about your xeno race when you wrote your application.