Player Complaint - Lying in an IR To Get My Character Punished

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

BYOND Key: MarlonPhoenix

Game ID:

b2t-aTxF

Player Byond Key/Character name: The 2 interviewed witnesses.

Staff involved: Soultheif96

Reason for complaint: Lying on an IR to get my character punished. It escalated from my character calling them mean names to lying and saying he assaulted her. This is bogus because there's no practical way I can appeal that would disprove 2 witness testimonies. This is also really dumb because I can easily start getting 2 - 3 people as witnesses in bogus IR's that can't be disproven to get people's character's punished, in retaliation to everyone listed as a witness on that IR and there'd be nothing they could IC'ly do about it. This needs to be an OOC issue.

IR's are for IC'ly handling complaints, not for this silly stuff with lying. When there's obvious lying going on that blatantly violates the logs CCIA should be able to pull video feed out of their butt to prevent this kind of thing

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? I made an appeal but I shouldn't need to appeal a bogus lie. I asked Alberyk to check the logs and I at no time touched Thai Min.

Approximate Date/Time:

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Soultheif96]

As the agent handling this case, I will provide excerpts to help clarify this. Please note that I have redacted names as they are irrelevant to this.

Spoiler

 

[12:47:56] CCIAA Tyler McKinney says, "Shm'ta was reported to have pushed you over."

[12:47:58] Thi Mai Linh says, "[REDACTED] was fighting back with [REDACTED], ah, I can't remember his last name, on-scene."

[12:48:01] CCIAA Tyler McKinney says, "[REDACTED]."

[12:48:04] Thi Mai Linh says, "I do recall being shoved over during the fight, yes. I regained my balance - thank you - my balance quickly, but was unable to see who attempted to shove me."

 

 

 

From Thi Mai Linh (neworiginalschwann)

Spoiler

[12:24:09] Bradley Ivanov says, "Miss Linh was, also, shoved to the ground by Mister Shm'ta.

From Bradley Ivanov (Brutishcrab51)

Additionally, I have requested further information from other people involved in the IR. This one was unsure that it happened, but it is a possible dismissal of Schwann and Crab's testimony regarding shoving. The other doesn't quite remember.

Spoiler

[12:26:20] CCIAA Tyler McKinney asks, "Did you get any info about Shm'ta pushing her down?"
[12:26:27] [REDACTED] says, "Officer Linh only disclosed there being a verbal disagreement between her and [REDACTED], and that the other [REDACTED] employees of the medbay, [REDACTED] and Shm'ta disagreeing with her."

Spoiler

[12:25:16] CCIAA Tyler McKinney says, "Let me ask."
[12:25:17] [REDACTED] asks, "yes?"
[12:25:19] CCIAA Tyler McKinney asks, "Did Shm'ta push over Linh?"
[12:26:21] [REDACTED] asks, "who is Shm'ta?"
[12:26:22] CCIAA Tyler McKinney says, "The Tajara."
[12:26:23] [REDACTED] asks, "oh, Rocco's friend?"
[12:26:25] CCIAA Tyler McKinney says, "If that is the case, then yes."
[12:26:26] [REDACTED] says, "dont remember."
[12:26:26] [REDACTED] says, "at all, but it was possible."
[12:26:27] [REDACTED] says, "probably not probable."
[12:26:29] [REDACTED] says, "she was angry however."
[12:27:32] [REDACTED] says, "did scream at Linh a lot."

 

Based on these reports, I have decided to do the following action: Muhuurla'Khala Shm'ta will be fined with 1150 credits for verbal abuse/slander, minor assault, and lying to an agent. A reprimand will be place on their record to not repeat this incident.

If you have any further questions, please ask.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Soultheif96

[Brutishcrab51]

Hey man, you know. Gotta' play ball when you don't wanna' play nice with ATLAS guys from Sol. There's plenty of IC ways to handle this, though it may come off as a bit scummy from an IC standpoint. It's been accepted that you can lie in an IR, but the draw-backs from lying if caught are extremely major. It's important to avoid picking fights with bureaucratic giants that know how to stack the cards in their favor, and I took the time to coach Linh as my Consul on what to say to the CCIAA during the interview so our stories lined up.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

If this is a valid game to play (hard IC) then i have 3 people who could act as solid witnesses in a fraudulent IR and get your char slam dunked on a similar he-said he-said 3 vs 1 but this shouldnt BE a valid way to do IRs. Theres nothing i can do IC because an appeal needs me to acknowledge i did it.

Like come on man. Coaching? Really?? Do it on station not with an ir dude

Edited August 7, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Brutishcrab51]

I did do the coaching on-station. In-between interview. I was asked to file the report and made the most of it, IC punishments are purely IC, and a similar complaint like this was written in the past for lying in an IR. It was confirmed that people could lie.

 

I encourage you to respond in an appropriate IC way, and you know I love you Jackboot, this has nothing to do with my OOC feelings on your characters or you as a player!

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Uuuuugh that's not how you should do IRs. Are you honestly saying that if my metafriends ICly coach each other on a fraudulent IR thats theres literally no OOC recourse?

Thats dumb!

This is dumb

Change that rule

 

Have IC camera logs or other IC reasons as a fallback for ccia to detect obvious malacious fraud

Edited August 7, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Flamingo]

I will be handling this. Please only post if you are involved.

 

I am removing posts of those uninvolved, but for the sake of not deleting an important part of the conversation: yes - it is accepted that you can lie to CCIA right now. I will be reviewing further and discussing with relevant parties about how to handle this complaint. 

 

Cheers.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

Hello, I play Thi Mai Linh. I'm going to keep my response here brief and to the point as other persons have raised points I intended to cover.

1.  I ICly and OOCly recalled being shoved to the ground during the arrest. I will concede, however, that my memory is by no means perfect and I may have remembered this improperly.
2.  I did not, at any point during the interview, directly imply or state that Shm'ta shoved me to the ground. I stated that I recalled having been shoved, but could not remember which party did it. As a character, Linh believes that, if anyone would have shoved her to the ground, it would be the tajara that showed a hatred of her party, department, and homeland. However, professional standards came first.
3.  As for coaching: Linh asked for advice before the CCIA interview from Ivanov (since he is, you know, a member of the Sol Alliance consulate and filed the report) and was told to "be honest during the interview," or something along those lines. I find the accusation that we, a contractor nervous about getting fired and a foreign service officer, created some kind of grand ATLAS-voter conspiracy (or metafriends) to fine a tajaran bartender ridiculous in and out of character. 
4. As for lying: while I did not do it myself, lying is allowed on CCIA reports. Anything else here would just be restating previous points.
5. The fact that Ivanov said Shm'ta shoved Linh and three other interviewed personnel said "I don't know if he did, but that seems like something he would do," seems like more of a character issue than a player issue.

In conclusion I do not support adding magic CCIA cameras as it would ruin part of the organization's purpose of finding out about IC problems using IC means and start us on a slippery slope towards making the CCIA just admins that have to bwoink you via your PDA. Please inform me if you have any questions regarding my involvement in this case.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The logs showed shmta never touched thai. Its fine that you didnt remember who shoved you but the fact my character who called yours mean names suddenly got charged with assault because of "ic bias" is absolutely insane. Once again if i did this to you then you'd be completely helpless.

This isn't ok. I don't agree at all that giving IRs integrity is going to make things really bad.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Brutish is saying openly that he coached you to tell your story a certain way but youre saying he just said to be honest.

Im confused. Did you knie he was coaching you?

Honestly if you guys pushed really hard that i was saying vicious mean things and slandered her and i got slapped with slander id grumble but get over it and make snide remarks about her thin skin but ASSAULT???

I get lying to get out of trouble but making up this whole thing to get someone in such hot water is crazy

Edited August 7, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Brutishcrab51]

I approached NewOriginalSchwann's character in an attempt to clarify some aspects of their story in-between interviews. At no point did I tell her that I was 'coaching' her, it likely came across as - you know - a Sol government service officer trying to give some advice to a Solarian citizen. The closest that came to coaching was, "You do remember being shoved, don't you? Wasn't it Shm'ta that did it?"

 

Heck, man. An IC punishment that covers (perhaps) an exaggerated series of events from my own point of view that has resulted in a fine could certainly be dealt with an IC manner. I just think this whole complaint's a bit overboard, the whole point of CCIA existing is for them to handle IC actions in an IC way. This is sort of undermining that, and the ability players can have in turning the system to their gain.

 

Also - I wouldn't call NewOriginalSchwann a metafriend. This is actually the first time I've ever connected a character's name to their Forum name.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You dork you seem like your backpedaling cuz you already said you coached them. Even if you did since there is no official rule against this (but from what noise i hear the majority of our heads are kinda annoyed by it?) I would really like this assault charge downgraded to a proper slander charge so i can still catch a charge on something that actually happened (calling thai a fascist)

and i dont think brutish or anyone needs to punished but a rule on willfully lying would be GREAT

Edited August 8, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Garnascus]

Hello, this topic is currently being discussed internally. We recognize that it is an issue we need to address with a policy update. Flamingo and i do not feel anyone needs to or is going to be punished here for a couple of reasons. The first is CCIA have had a long standing policy that lying in interviews is acceptable. The second reason is no server rules where broken. We do however have to address the issue of "what if ccia is not adequately equipped to detect lies?". If it is too easy to lie then CCIA becomes functionally useless. We have brainstormed a variety of solutions.

1. We do nothing. Lying IC is IC. If you manage to get away with it then congratulations you got away with it.

2. Lying is outright forbidden during interviews. If you are found to be lying then action is taken against you OOC as it will be treated as "do not lie to staff".

3. You are permitted to lie to protect YOURSELF and ONLY yourself. You are not permitted to make up falsehoods against another character.

4. CCIA get access to server logs in the same way admins do. Every IR gets checked against server logs.

Currenly lancer the head of CCIA feels that a form of 4 would be best. That our CCIA liaisons get access to radio logs and perhaps say logs. These can then be checked against the facts or statements of interviews. I do not know how well or how much this will solve the issue. I personally find it deplorable for a player to engage in this kind of deception. Imagine if every IR looked like this. Players getting together and agreeing on a certain narrative to use against someone else. It is unacceptable and if needs be i will just forbid lying outright regardless of the mental gymnastics required. I am unwilling to do this without trying softer approaches first. 

 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Using in game logs seems ok if ccia knows someone is fibbing to get someone else in trouble and they dont wanna dunk on someone unfairly. Lying to protect yourself seems cool.

Is my assault charge getting downgraded?

[Ornias]

21 hours ago, Garnascus said:

I personally find it deplorable for a player to engage in this kind of deception. Imagine if every IR looked like this. Players getting together and agreeing on a certain narrative to use against someone else.

surely this is already covered by the rules, though? that using meta-knowledge and ooc interest to drive character action is against the rules.

by focusing on the player making the deception, rather than the character, you're extracting one of the only meaningful ways for characters to have long-lasting impact on others.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Ornias

[Garnascus]

8 hours ago, Ornias said:

surely this is already covered by the rules, though? that using meta-knowledge and ooc interest to drive character action is against the rules.

No, its not and theres no way for me to prove that you're lying because you hate the guy playing him. The people involved in this complaint did it all IC. 

8 hours ago, Ornias said:

by focusing on the player making the deception, rather than the character, you're extracting one of the only meaningful ways for characters to have long-lasting impact on others.

That sucks. I think this kind of impact is inappropriate and i will see it changed. I will not allow an IC system of punishing players to be hijacked by popularity. Full stop. Currently i aim to better equip CCIA to figure out such things with CCIA liaisons being able to read some measure of round logs. Its still being discussed. 

[Brutishcrab51]

I love Jackboot and don't understand why it seems to be the opinion of people that I or anyone else involved treated the IR and the investigation into it as an OOCly-charged way to make his game experience worse. I think that's the main misunderstanding here, no "meta-knowledge" was had and no OOC interests were pushed. The ultimate punishment for Jackboot's character in this case was a fine. A credit fine, nor did I know the player of Linh on an OOC basis until I saw them post in this thread.

 

I'd consider it totally cool for CCIA to access radio logs, I pushed for that back in my day, but letting them access Say logs is sort of really dumb. Just make them Moderators if you want their investigations to have OOC powers and advantages.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Brutishcrab51

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Until we are able to read minds we qill never be able to definitively prove a metagrudge done icly because most people are clever enough to disguise it.

I dont think brutish ooc wanted to metagrudge me and he considered it all fun IC stuff; hes super wrong NOT super malacious 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Btw will my assault charge be downgraded?

[Soultheif96]

As primary agent that handled the case, I will lessen the actions the regarding pushing Officer Linh down. Shm’ta will still have their reprimand to as punishment is still to be had.

If you wish to appeal the actions, please refer to Incident Report Appeals to have NerdyVampire or Lancer hear your case and decide if the actions carried out by me was unacceptable or you have learned your lesson. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

@Soultheif96 If I understand you right, it will still list pushing as what happened and not just the name calling and criticism?

[Soultheif96]

5 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

@Soultheif96 If I understand you right, it will still list pushing as what happened and not just the name calling and criticism?

No incident of pushing will be displayed but calling and criticism will still be included as per action statement you can see on Shm’ta’s CCIA info.

[Garnascus]

So

As a result of this complaint administrator liasons to CCIA now have the authority to check round logs in circumstances like this. I consider this resolved now. 

Locking and archiving.