Staff Complaint - Drwango

[Brutishcrab51]

BYOND Key: Brutishcrab51

Staff BYOND Key: Drwango

Game ID: b2M-aOs6

Reason for complaint: Illogical conduct and mentioning of a 'history of notes', with my latest notes being over a year old. Issuing a Security Ban for, in my opinion, no good reason.

Evidence/logs/etc: Logs of activity to be found in the Game ID logs, I can't for the life of me screenshot or figure out how to textdump everything here. Needless to say, during a Malf round, the AI 'M.I.St.R.E.S.S.' declared itself queen of the Aurora and that it was unlawed. A free A.I. In essence, this was a just-cause for any reasonable action (with build-up) against the AI. It opened up all the doors to Command and allowed Synthetic Right advocates (largely) into its core, for "audiences". It also organized a contest that included having people raid the Vault (and they actually did. An IPC did), and allowing Scientists to duel for the position of "Grand Mage" or something along those lines, I can't quite recall it. Had Captain's access-style tag on the Security HUD.

 

Knowing all this, and being selected for an expedition by the AI, I went ahead and used the station funds (since I got an all-access card as well, though without changing my name or job) to purchase tactical armor and an assault carbine, to go out on the expedition with. However, I chose to then ask the AI about its policy of self-defense, given it was free, and members of Security were discussing ways of dealing with it, see: https://i.imgur.com/VSx06dF.png

 

Following that, I did the only reasonable thing. I checked PDA logs and discovered that the Chief Engineer (Oliver Roadman) was unwilling to try and card the AI or reset its laws, or attempt to. He was the only Head of Staff onboard. I went to Security, where Kaden Rivers (Security Officer) and Vincent Gallardi (Warden) offered me an Ion Rifle, and I requested some Ablative armor (gloves and boots). I turned down the Ion Rifle, we decided to do something about the AI, I went down to the AI core in full regalia with Kaden to destroy it. Its defenses were off, its doors open, and a whole crowd of people sat in front of its core feeding it alcohol (because that can still happen for some reason, a bug perhaps?) and in various levels of armament. A few IPCs, Roadman and Synthetic Rights-slanted Security Officers (Kiva Santorii and Berko Mutema) were present. I green-walked through them, saying the occasional "excuse me" and "pardon me", with an Assault Carbine in-hand and Tactical Armor on, staying at the edge of the crowd for Mistress to do a *me of its holographic figure sitting back and being all drunk.

 

At that point, I walked up to the core, and announced that I was carrying out a "coup", in-line with the gimmick of her being a "queen". I proceeded to shoot her down with the carbine, and then slung it when the various people surrounding me started the disarm-attacks. Pulled out a baton, but mostly spammed disarm. Ran out and away. Walked to Security, surrendered to the Warden because the Chief Engineer declared himself Acting Captain and ordered my arrest, and then..

 

At that point, DrWango PM'd me. To cut a long story short, we had a bit of an argument about the escalation reasonings behind killing the AI, and DrWango stated that as a Synthlore Deputy he had full discretion in determining whether or not it would be reasonable to kill a malfunctioning AI. He said that a "malf AI" was more of a malfunctioning non-dangerous entity in lore, instead of a rogue AI, when every lore example, literally every single one, indicates that they are at best malicious and dangerous, and at worst genocidal and galaxy-cleansing (Glorsh).

 

I may have called him ridiculous a few times for making the argument, as I couldn't fathom it in my mind how it could be anything but justified to kill an unlawed AI that had admitted it would do whatever was necessary to keep itself in power as a "queen", while empowering IPCs over the crew and encouraging infiltration and vandalism, with no one able or willing to card it or reset its laws. Ultimately, he issued me a week-long Security Ban.

Additional remarks: Take my statements with a bit of salt and wait for staff to dig through logs before coming to any conclusions. I'm sure I may have missed something in my frustration in regards to my and DrWango's conversation, but it was mostly semantics on whether or not it was okay to kill the AI.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Brutishcrab51

[Garnascus]

6 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

It opened up all the doors to Command and allowed Synthetic Right advocates (largely) into its core, for "audiences". It also organized a contest that included having people raid the Vault (and they actually did. An IPC did), and allowing Scientists to duel for the position of "Grand Mage" or something along those lines, I can't quite recall it

This all sounds like cool RP

7 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

Knowing all this, and being selected for an expedition by the AI, I went ahead and used the station funds (since I got an all-access card as well, though without changing my name or job) to purchase tactical armor and an assault carbine, to go out on the expedition with.

So does this. You even got to spend a load of cash. 

8 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

Following that, I did the only reasonable thing. I checked PDA logs and discovered that the Chief Engineer (Oliver Roadman) was unwilling to try and card the AI or reset its laws, or attempt to. He was the only Head of Staff onboard. I went to Security, where Kaden Rivers (Security Officer) and Vincent Gallardi (Warden) offered me an Ion Rifle, and I requested some Ablative armor (gloves and boots). I turned down the Ion Rifle, we decided to do something about the AI, I went down to the AI core in full regalia with Kaden to destroy it

The only reasonable thing? All it said was it would defend its existence if the crew tried to kill it. Cant you just.... not try to kill it? It seems like the AI was going out of its way to not be a murder-hobo-death-AI.... 

[Brutishcrab51]

The big divider here was the admittance at round-start that it was unlawed, which undermined any attempts it made at appearing less-than-dangerous. We'd let it be up to the two hour mark and the crew made every attempt to get it repaired or carded, to no avail (in particular, crewmen being unwilling to do that), and uh..

 

It allowed Scientists to duel with weaponry, and made a pre-requisite for the "expedition" be that someone had to break into the Vault and rob it. Every example of free AI in the lore so far is that they are inherently extremely dangerous, and that held true here. It was extremely dangerous. It declared itself "queen" of the Aurora and was letting IPCs into the Armory (a G2 in the Core had ballistic armor and a laser rifle had been handed out). A lot went into it that led up to the decision by me, the Warden and Kaden Rivers to destroy it.

[Garnascus]

1 minute ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

The big divider here was the admittance at round-start that it was unlawed, which undermined any attempts it made at appearing less-than-dangerous. We'd let it be up to the two hour mark and the crew made every attempt to get it repaired or carded, to no avail (in particular, crewmen being unwilling to do that), and uh..

Dude...

It admits its unlawed it round start.

It goes two hours without spamming max caps, syphoning people or force borging.

It attempts to involve the crew in "duels" and some "expeditions" of which you yourself benefited from. 

It claims it would defend itself IF and ONLY IF crew tried to kill it.

You walked into its core and killed it.

This is not ok. You should have not tried to kill it. 

[Cnaym]

1 minute ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

It was extremely dangerous. It declared itself "queen" of the Aurora and was letting IPCs into the Armory (a G2 in the Core had ballistic armor and a laser rifle had been handed out). A lot went into it that led up to the decision by me, the Warden and Kaden Rivers to destroy it.

It said multiple times that it will stand down when  NT arrives to pick it up. Kaden Rivers handed the G2 miner a rifle and helmet for the expedition and it was waiting down there to go. Breaking into the vault to determine which one was the best rogue for an adventure was hilarious and nobody got harmed the entire shift. Your decision to be the hero of the day ended a gimmik that people wanted to continue and even after you killed the malf voted continue. On a malf round. In hopes it would get voided. 

If you decide to end a gimmik by yourself, for no good reason and then yell over the common radio that everyone should thank you, shooting a rifle in a room full of people as an officer with no threat and zero escalation I'm honestly questioning if you the reaction of drwago was too harmless.

[Brutishcrab51]

It--

 

Garn, you're familiar with the lore surrounding Synthetics, right?

That every AI to date has been immensely hostile, when freed. That the AI was encouraging people to shoot each other, rob the Vault, and loot the Armory. That it empowered IPCs and Synth-friendly characters, in at least one case with a Captain-level ID.

 

At what point am I supposed to treat this broken AI like an antagonist? When it starts maxcapping people? Or when it leaves itself critically open to attack after doing all of this, and being aware that such weaponry and armor was on-station and being used.

[Brutishcrab51]

1 minute ago, Cnaym said:

It said multiple times that it will stand down when  NT arrives to pick it up. Kaden Rivers handed the G2 miner a rifle and helmet for the expedition and it was waiting down there to go. Breaking into the vault to determine which one was the best rogue for an adventure was hilarious and nobody got harmed the entire shift. Your decision to be the hero of the day ended a gimmik that people wanted to continue and even after you killed the malf voted continue. On a malf round. In hopes it would get voided. 

If you decide to end a gimmik by yourself, for no good reason and then yell over the common radio that everyone should thank you, shooting a rifle in a room full of people as an officer with no threat and zero escalation I'm honestly questioning if you the reaction of drwago was too harmless.

I point-blanked the AI with various other people behind me. No one was to my sides or front. The AI told Kaden to give the weaponry over, and he complied on the basis that it could vent the station.

 

I did not consider it harmless or funny.

[Garnascus]

1 minute ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

Garn, you're familiar with the lore surrounding Synthetics, right?

That every AI to date has been immensely hostile, when freed.

I will not allow lore to be used to murder an AI who is trying to act in good faith. 

3 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

At what point am I supposed to treat this broken AI like an antagonist? When it starts maxcapping people?

Yes

[Garnascus]

Also please no dogpile 

[Susan]

I played in this round. I was the one who messaged Oliver Roadman about the AI, and thus the logs mentioned in the post where he did not want to address the issue or fix the AI.

Personally I cannot fathom why Oscar was talked to for this. The AI was acting odd all round, disrupting normal station operations, encouraging people to break into secure areas (ie the vault) and fight in the holodeck (it claimed 'not to the death' but science built lethal guns and caused significant damage to bystanders in the process). And given the history of unshackled AIs, I couldn't understand why everyone was so blase about something that has access to the entire station going nutty. Even if the AI wasn't going 'murderbone', it was trying to provoke people into violence by proxy, especially by letting random people shoot each other and loot the armory, too.

If anything needed addressing that round I felt it was the rest of the crew's RP. They didn't bother to take into account the fact letting a rampant AI run wild on their company's station and doing all that, you know, illegal stuff would probably get them fired. How do they pay bills with no job? Would they be criminally charged? Nothing resembling real logic was at play here. There was no simple justification of 'well we're just playing along so it doesn't kill us' except from Kaden. Everyone else just didn't give a shit and let the AI do what it wanted, damn the consequences. Shoot their co-workers, rob the vault, steal equipment, upgrade their IDs - free for all. 

Also I apologize if this reply is out of order. The main subforum says only reply if involved. Delete me if unnecessary!

[Brutishcrab51]

Alright, but not discarding the rest of my post. What about everything else it did? What would you say would be appropriate as a response?

 

It sounds like you're saying that Security should do nothing at all, until the moment an obviously broken AI doing the above written kills people.

[Garnascus]

2 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

What would you say would be appropriate as a response

You could roll with the gimmick. Going on an expedition armed to the teeth sounds fun. 

3 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

It sounds like you're saying that Security should do nothing at all

You do not always have to kill the antag.

[Brutishcrab51]

The option in this case was doing nothing at all (since no one was willing to do anything at all, and chanted "JUSTICE FOR OUR QUEEN"), or destroy it. Since it wasn't something that could just be detained, or arrested, or handcuffed.

 

It was a dangerous AI doing and encouraging dangerous things. It said it was unlawed and accommodated extreme crimes, I made the choice to destroy it on those grounds and made sure numerous people knew that, and that the AI knew I was armed and dangerous, before ever walking into Command.

[Garnascus]

Well i am sorry but i think that was pretty lame and that the ban set by drago is valid. 

[Brutishcrab51]

I'm glad you're willing to say that, Garn. Even still, I'd be appreciative if the typical tribunal of staff/moderators/admins could look into this, because I (and it appears with mixed opinions) others don't think this was all cool and fine.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

I also played in this round. I was Likho, mechatronic engineer. I was called by Vincent Gallardi, the warden, to the brig several times to discuss the AI issue. Ultimately I could not do anything about the problem for a few reasons:

1). The AI was having the aforementioned synthetic rights party in its core.

2). The partygoers were armed, and had looted the vault and armory.

3). Two of our four security officers were involved in this AI mosh pit.

4). The entire crew seemed to be descending into madness, and I was seriously considering stealing insulated gloves and cutting the AI wire on any doors I could find.

Furthermore, the AI had been acting odd all round: it had caused two scientists to duel with extremely lethal weapons (hitting several bystanders), motivated the chief engineer to break into the vault, and had stated that it would stop any attempts to interrupt it or control it. It was disrupting the entire station and, considering the history of rampant AIs in lore, security was within their right to destroy it: this is an entity that is clearly broken and has access to most systems on the station. It would be illogical not to eliminate it.

[Lady Fowl]

23 minutes ago, NewOriginalSchwann said:

I also played in this round. I was Likho, mechatronic engineer. I was called by Vincent Gallardi, the warden, to the brig several times to discuss the AI issue. Ultimately I could not do anything about the problem for a few reasons:

1). The AI was having the aforementioned synthetic rights party in its core.

2). The partygoers were armed, and had looted the vault and armory.

3). Two of our four security officers were involved in this AI mosh pit.

4). The entire crew seemed to be descending into madness, and I was seriously considering stealing insulated gloves and cutting the AI wire on any doors I could find.

Furthermore, the AI had been acting odd all round: it had caused two scientists to duel with extremely lethal weapons (hitting several bystanders), motivated the chief engineer to break into the vault, and had stated that it would stop any attempts to interrupt it or control it. It was disrupting the entire station and, considering the history of rampant AIs in lore, security was within their right to destroy it: this is an entity that is clearly broken and has access to most systems on the station. It would be illogical not to eliminate it.

It would be logical to destroy it if the following was met:

1. If there was proper escalation/ It provided actual harm to crew/was actively trying to kill crew, which it was not in this case
2. It was rp'ed out better to provide more interaction then "This is a coup" then shooting it

[Brutishcrab51]

3 minutes ago, DRagO said:

It would be logical to destroy it if the following was met:

1. If there was proper escalation/ It provided actual harm to crew/was actively trying to kill crew, which it was not in this case
2. It was rp'ed out better to provide more interaction then "This is a coup" then shooting it

Any attempt at walking in and talking would have been illogical and dumb, it had a small army in its core. There was RP building up to the attack, though.

 

Just not RP with the AI.

[Jupiter Storm]

Soooooo first of all for the sake of posterity it's worth mentioning that I'm not particularly salty about the attack, I know that some people find it difficult to discern the difference between a murderboney A.I. and one that just wants to promote roleplay in a round on low pop where the crew would have had no feasible way to stop it - particularly given the sort of Malf AI rounds we've had recently where an emergency shuttle is pretty much always called.

The assassination of the 'queen' in her 'court' was, as a concept, very amusing. And of course as a synthetic she has nothing in the way of rights and given that I purposefully announced to the crew from the get-go that I was unlawed there was plenty of room and time for escalation, even if I was never a recipient of said escalation.

My issue with this Staff Complaint is that regardless of not feeling upset about what you did - it was very poor conduct - not necessarily from an IC standpoint, but on an OOC level for reasons I am about to outline. And Drwago does not deserve this sort of response for repimanding you for valid hunting again, for reasons I am about to outline.

Quote

It opened up all the doors to Command and allowed Synthetic Right advocates (largely) into its core, for "audiences".

1. This is actually taken broadly out of context, and admins glancing over the logs will be able to readily confirm that the core was in fact, open to anybody in order to facilitate RP with the antagonist, myself - 'Freedom' and 'Independence' or 'SLF' or 'Synthetic Rights' were never thrown around by Mistress, and she repeatedly stated that she was going to lose her power in about 2-3 hours. The characters promoted to higher ranks were not chosen because of their disposition towards synthetic rights but because of their willingness to run along with the gimmick. You saw a preference towards IPCs because you wanted a reason to suspect that the A.I. had ill intentions toward the crew.

This aside, yes the A.I. did give free run of the station to anyone who supported her. That is against the law. Again though, you weren't bwoinked because of the justification for your actions, you were bwoinked because of the way you executed them.

Quote

Knowing all this, and being selected for an expedition by the AI, I went ahead and used the station funds (since I got an all-access card as well, though without changing my name or job) to purchase tactical armor and an assault carbine, to go out on the expedition with. However, I chose to then ask the AI about its policy of self-defense, given it was free, and members of Security were discussing ways of dealing with it, see: https://i.imgur.com/VSx06dF.png

2. Once more, I think that you only saw what you wanted to see in order to justify a valid hunt. Rather than interpreting this response as 'If I am attacked, I will fight back and you really won't get very far at all', you decided to interpret this as, 'If the crew so much as sneeze in my general direction I'm going to nuke the station'.

Drwago - and many of those roleplaying in the core who probably agree that this Staff Complaint doesn't seem very fair, is thinking more along the lines of... Your character was never at any point, not once nor ever, given a reason to suspect that the A.I. ever wanted to hurt anybody. Because really? I just wanted to RP and give everyone something interesting to do for a few hours until my antag turn was over.

If the logs are carefully examined you will note that the A.I. specifically stated a number of times that nobody was going to die, and that this wasn't a 'good day' for fighting - eluding to the fact that it was low pop and the crew currently on manifest were not adequately equipped to deal with murdermalf.

 

3. There was no indication towards me that you had hostile intent. Now, ICly speaking, this is a really intelligent move, and something that an assassin would employ in a realistic scenario. Thing is? OOCly it was just cheap and lame - and THAT is why you were bwoinked. I had not activated any powers or used anything against the crew whatsoever. Beyond this? I'd opened the core to people to come and get some antag interaction rather than stealth malfing, hence why the turrets were down as well, otherwise everyone visiting would've been killed.

Consider this.

In a real scenario in a game NOT governed by logs and streams of text where it's very hard to discern what's going on when it gets a bit spammy, your character Oscar Easter just kind of waltzes his way into the core without announcing his presence, armed to the teeth. You trip the motion sensors and make your way through several doors.

An Artificial Intelligence not trying to make sense of game logs sees you standing there, without so much as a 'how do you do'. What happens next? Forcefields, lockdowns, Easter-flavoured swiss cheese. Along with everybody else in the core because turrets do not discern friend from foe.

In summary, what I'm getting at here:

ICly - the execution was very clever and made sense. Problem is, in the interest of 'protecting the crew', Oscar Easter actually almost killed them, because clearly what was going on in his mind was "if the A.I. is attacked, it's going to blow up this station." - IF THAT IS WHAT YOUR CHARACTER THOUGHT, WHY DID YOU ATTACK THE A.I. ?

OOCly - the attack really ruined a peaceful gimmick for 10 seconds of satisfaction that "yay look at me I killed the antag." - Was it worth it? Nobody was really that impressed.

Finally, you took advantage of my compassionate OOC stance on a low pop round by essentially flipping around the usual 'powergamey stealth malf' with 'powergamey stealth oscar' in order to get a quick kill. If I had actually made sense of the logs - you would have died, and killed everybody inside of the core as collateral damage.

In fact, if I'd been as bad as your character (and you, clearly) THOUGHT I was, you'd have died, killed everyone inside the core, AND killed the entire station.

 

TL:DR, Drwago was fully justified in bwoinking you and she really doesn't deserve this sort of treatment for doing her job.


EDIT: As an addendum to this - again, let me stress, from an IC standpoint the whole 'court assassin' deal was very clever and very amusing.

The way you should be looking at your bwoink is not "my actions didn't make sense", but "okay, I valid hunted because I just kinda wanted to kill an antag and that ruined everybody else's RP and I accept that and I'll bear in mind in future rounds and I will be sure to play Colonial Marines if I want my action fix". You weren't even banned, were you? It's not the end of the world.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Jupiter Storm

[Brutishcrab51]

Ignoring much of your statement which concentrates somehow on the "you wanted valids" standpoint - you act like you were playing a person. You were playing an unlawed AI, an AI that admitted it was unlawed, and you made no mention of the violence-through-proxy activities you encouraged. Armed duels with Science in order to elevate an IPC to a Captain-access position. Allowing an IPC that broke into the Vault to get Armory weaponry. This is all very bad.

 

Destroying an AI before it can act to destroy the station when it leaves its core open is, by far, not a dumb move. Starship Troopers would have us know that you cannot fire a weapon, if you cannot use your hand. You could not destroy the station if you were incapacitated. There were also 30+ people playing on the server, it wasn't lowpop.

 

And uh, in a real world, your AI was busy being filled with alcohol and enjoying being a "queen". There was nothing stopping you from witnessing my presence - I mean, you saw me, didn't you? I didn't attack immediately, I spoke with Roadman (Chief Engineer) who was blocking the entrance, and then entered the core and waited for you to finish up your *me and share a few more words with the crew there.

 

Quote

 "okay, I valid hunted because I just kinda wanted to kill an antag and that ruined everybody else's RP and I accept that and I'll bear in mind in future rounds and I will be sure to play Colonial Marines if I want my action fix"

This is rude, no need to insult me. I've been playing on this server for five years, I got my Head of Staff whitelist in 2017. It was my opinion that you justified attempts against yourself the moment you went ahead and declared that you were unlawed. Barring anything else, you are not playing a -person-.

 

You were playing an AI.

 

"So what if I was playing an AI? I'm a player, it's not right to take me out of my experience when I haven't maxcapped areas of the station yet.", you might say. I would be inclined to agree with you if you did not at least hint to the fact that you would be willing to damage the station or the crewmen on it, along with accommodating the Vault being raided and the Armory being opened for IPC Miners. There were individuals that knew my intentions to harm your AI from the get-go. Everyone in Security barring those in your core knew my intentions. There was preparation, the Armory being opened, my sitting in the lobby to plan it out next to an intercomm with Kaden Rivers (Security Officer), who went with me -- and I can't be blamed for the fact that no one else was willing to take action in regards to your AI. You don't honestly expect realistic people to be okay with a renegade AI, do you?

 

Destroying your AI was an extreme act, but the only one left other than "do nothing", which wasn't a realistic option itself either. The last time an AI even seemed "rogue" or in this case, unlawed, a Hephaestus security team shut off their station's power and destroyed its core with handguns. It's not my fault you wanted to be all hugs and kisses to the crew after establishing yourself as a major threat that allowed and encouraged acts of violence, vandalism, infiltration and armed theft.

 

Quote

You weren't even banned, were you? It's not the end of the world.

I was department-banned, actually, as outlined in the complaint.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Brutishcrab51

[Jupiter Storm]

That's fine, I've said my bit. Everything above is pretty heavily stated, luckily I know you're wrong about me so I don't mind, but anyway - there was a reason a head of staff staff member saw fit to bwoink you, and a lot of other people understood that reason. I was just trying to help you understand it.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Jupiter Storm

[Brutishcrab51]

7 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

That's fine, I've said my bit. Everything above is pretty heavily stated, luckily I know you're wrong about me so I don't mind, but anyway - there was a reason a head of staff staff member saw fit to bwoink you, and a lot of other people understood that reason. I was just trying to help you understand it.

I may have had a small misunderstanding here. Was Oliver aroadman's player also the Moderator that department-banned me? I'm not good with attaching character names to player ckeys.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Brutishcrab51
Clarifying questioning.

[Lady Fowl]

4 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

I may have had a small misunderstanding here. Was Oliver aroadman's player also the Moderator that department-banned me? I'm not good with attaching character names to player ckeys.

No, Roadman is a different player.

[Brutishcrab51]

Alrighty, was just somewhat confused by the quoted text.

[Garnascus]

Spoke with alberyk about this. A jobban was probably too much and that of course is probably more my fault than drwagos. We still think this was really lame so i will just reduce it to a warning and chalk it up to time spent.