Complaint- Juan Siganto

[Resilynn]

BYOND Key: Resilynn

Game ID: b2V-anGr, though it has been an ongoing issue.

Player Byond Key/Character name: Outboarduniform, Juan Siganto

Staff involved: Alb and garn each took an ahelp about him this round, though there have been previous ahelps other rounds before.

Reason for complaint:  In brief, I believe Juan Siganto is emblematic of 'shitcurity' in that he mercilessly valid hunts, has a vague understanding of regulations at best, and fails to meet high RP standards.  I am advocating for the removal of his whitelist, or, at the very least, an Hos/Captain jobban.

 

Right, so, for more detail. This character caught my attention a day or two ago when I noticed he was doing the usual newer HoS secrecy tactics.  Not updating the crew on escalating situations, not communicating with command.  This is nothing new for this character, I've seen him around.  In this particular round, however, he allowed two officers and a cadet to break into medical because we had (sedated and cuffed) a merc.  The security personnel were screaming racist slurs at the vaurca staff members, and one physically threw surgeon Luna Evans across the room and called her a cunt.  Siganto's response was, in short, 'I am the law.'  He insisted that as he had the Captain's ID, he was acting Captain.  He refused to reign in his department and allowed them to abuse the crew.  This largely went unreported, as shortly after he rushed the vault and died, so he really wasn't a problem anymore.

A note on how he died:

This is not reasonable RP.  He is clearly prioritizing valids above his own safety (he died very quickly after this), and no reasonable HoS would tell his staff to die.  I find this attitude completely mind blowing from a whitelisted player who is supposed to be loyalty implanted and an individual who fears death.

If I had that round ID I would provide it, but I don't, so instead, I'll focus on the round ID I've provided.

In this round, Siganto was removed from command by a unanimous vote after a series of abuses on various members of the crew. As a loyalty implanted HoS, as a note.

The conflict with his command style began when he silently raised the alert without briefing command.

Command insisted he both brief them and provide a directive 11 report.  This was that report-

It's a problematic attitude, but there's nothing wrong with having a problematic attitude, at least from a rules perspective.  I'd argue a GOOD head of staff can be grumpy and still keep players informed of what's happening in the round, but I digress.

This conflict continued, however, as command pressed him for more details.  Oliver Roadman lowered the code to green, given that command was not informed of why the alert was elevated, and an argument broke out.

Up until this point, I could dismiss this playstyle (which I personally do not like, even a little, I think command has an obligation to involve people, this is especially true for security). It was at this point, however, that he made a fairly concerning statement.

As per Directive 2, no one is just acting captain by default. 

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"Should, during standard operation, the Command Staff be missing a Captain, then it is preferred that all members of the Command Staff present stay on equal terms and act as a singular commanding entity, thus negating the need to promote a specific person to the position of Acting Captain. Under such operations, the Command Staff as a whole carries the authority of the Captain, and can, together, conduct actions that would otherwise require the Captain's approval. In order for the Command Staff to make a Captain level decision, a unanimous vote in support will be required with at least two (2) able command staff."

A Head of Security should know this.  If you are chiefly responsible for enforcing regulations, you need to know regulations.  This is going to be a recurring theme in the rest of my complaint- Either Outboard doesn't know regulations, or he elects to ignore them in favor of 'winning.'  Both are incredibly problematic for an HoS. I ahelped to alb at this point and he informed Siganto of this directive.

The round goes on.  I get thralled, my vampire is arrested, I go to break her out like a good bitchboy thrall.  I have no complaints about being arrested for incapacitating two security officers and breaking two people out of security, and I want to be very clear about that.  This complaint has nothing to do with the fact that I was arrested for breaking regulations.

I am complaining that I was held, strapped to a chair in cuffs, for twenty minutes before given my thirty minute sentence. 

Here you can see I was already handcuffed at the 2 hour vote:

And here you can see that I was being placed in my cell for my 30 minute sentence almost 30 minutes after that:

This is another case of either not knowing regulations or electing to ignore them.  I ahelped this to garn and he reminded Siganto I needed to be processed, which is what prompted my being put into a cell at all. In universe, an HoS doubling someone's sentence is breaking a medium level infraction, which is detailed here, under CCIA notices-

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Processing Time Regulations:

Personnel detained by Internal Security are expected to be processed in a timely manner. Because a detainee's brig sentence begins after processing is completed, excessive processing times may result in the Warden or handling Security Officers being liable for illegal detention.

Again, an HoS should know this regulation.  It is poor play ICly because it is literally illegal, it is poor play OOCly because you're just taking someone out of the round for an hour for even daring to be near an antag.  I'd argue an HoS consistently breaking regulations should not be able to play HoS- they would not stay employed for long, it's immersion breaking.

I wished it stopped here, but it did not. While in the brig, handcuffed to a chair for nearly half an hour with no sentence, I witnessed Siganto drag a battered, bleeding man into processing.  The man was coughing up blood and gasping, his lungs were clearly ruptured.  I don't even know what his crime was, but it's completely unacceptable to just leave a man dying in processing.  I am including a full series of screenshots here so you can see how long it took between the first moment I saw the man cough up blood and the moment where medical was actually called.  It took me ahelping garn to get the man any medical help.

Keep in mind, I am not ghosted here.  That is how much dialogue went by while this man was dying, cuffed to a chair.  It took a headmin to get the HoS to call for medical, by the time they arrived the man was in hard crit with brain trauma.  I don't think I need to explain how this is abuse of prisoners and unacceptable.

At this point, all of command agree this HoS has to go.  We make a unanimous vote to remove him, CCIA is faxed.  Siganto STILL does not hand over the spare ID he stole, the shotgun on his back, nothing.  CCIA spawns in a Captain to get the situation under control and take his IDs, he still has a shotgun on his back.

So in one round we have failing to meet Directive 11, breaking Directive 2/illegal detainment, mistreatment of prisoners, and exceeding official powers.  Either Outboard does not know any of these regulations he's breaking, in which case he should not be playing HoS, or he knows these regulations and is willfully breaking them (while loyalty implanted)anyway, in which case he should not have a command whitelist.

These were not the only offenses.  These are just the ones I witnessed.  As I understand it, the characters Luna Evans, Scarlet Moore, Oliver Roadman, and ODIN have all also had encounters with him in the last 24 hours, but I don't want to speak for them and have chosen to only mention what I have screenshots of or directly witnessed.  I trust more will come out about his playstyle if you ask them for their accounts.  

Lastly, as a note, I've elected to make a player complaint instead of an IR because I believe these are OOC issues with validhunting and a poor understanding/willful ignorance of regulations.  I do not think this is a believable character.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, Alb and Garn had to walk him through regulations.

Approximate Date/Time: August 26th-ish, 27th-ish.  Around midnight EST.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Resilynn

[Outboarduniform]

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Right, so, for more detail. This character caught my attention a day or two ago when I noticed he was doing the usual newer HoS secrecy tactics.  Not updating the crew on escalating situations, not communicating with command.  This is nothing new for this character, I've seen him around.  In this particular round, however, he allowed two officers and a cadet to break into medical because we had (sedated and cuffed) a merc.  The security personnel were screaming racist slurs at the vaurca staff members, and one physically threw surgeon Luna Evans across the room and called her a cunt.  Siganto's response was, in short, 'I am the law.'  He insisted that as he had the Captain's ID, he was acting Captain.  He refused to reign in his department and allowed them to abuse the crew.  This largely went unreported, as shortly after he rushed the vault and died, so he really wasn't a problem anymore.

Right so, first off, you're already lying, nice start. 

Luna Evans tried to shield the suspect and was pushed out of the way, as I had it reported to me. As for the Captain's ID, I didn't even have it, the Chief Engineer did, and he grabbed it so that we could get into the vault without being fried by the turrets. I didn't say "I am the law", if I remember, I didn't answer you at all, because you bitching on command wasn't exactly my priority when I was dealing with mercs/raiders/whatever stealing from the vault. I didn't "refuse to reign in my department", I simply had other things to do outside of deal with your minuscule drama over a surgeon while we were dealing with heavily armed gunmen in the vault. 

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Alb and garn each took an ahelp about him this round, though there have been previous ahelps other rounds before.

Uh, no ? There might have been a "Hey what's up with X" and I respond with "because of Y" and it would have been an "ok thank you" ticket closed type of thing that sometimes happens, but I've not been ahelped about anything else, this is your power fantasy, you know that this is not true. 

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This is not reasonable RP.  He is clearly prioritizing valids above his own safety (he died very quickly after this), and no reasonable HoS would tell his staff to die.  I find this attitude completely mind blowing from a whitelisted player who is supposed to be loyalty implanted and an individual who fears death.

If I had that round ID I would provide it, but I don't, so instead, I'll focus on the round ID I've provided.

What valids ? Sorry to inform you, Chief, but I consider the Vault to be worth the lives of my meagerly paid Security Officers. Does it sound fucked up ? Yeah. Is it fucked up ? Yeah. Is it the reality of the situation, however ? Yeah. 

You're right, I am loyalty implanted....astute...observation...lol ? 

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In this round, Siganto was removed from command by a unanimous vote after a series of abuses on various members of the crew. As a loyalty implanted HoS, as a note.

The conflict with his command style began when he silently raised the alert without briefing command.

This conflict continued, however, as command pressed him for more details.  Oliver Roadman lowered the code to green, given that command was not informed of why the alert was elevated, and an argument broke out.

Ah, yes, the little code change that could. 

The code change to code blue was because of a break-in into the construction area. Sorry if I did not find it pressing to inform you of all of the details when the Directive 11 guidelines literally say When it becomes clear that an significant incident is arising that could effect standard operations of the station or cause significant damage to crew or property. The Code change was put in place for a while so that it would make our lives easier dealing with the construction area situation and because it was a minor security incident that deserved enough attention to have a code change. Sorry that when I do my job I don't do it to appease you specifically in your very specific wants and needs in a Head of Security, nor inform command of every detail outside of the vague answers that I already gave you, because that was literally all you needed to know because it didn't affect anyone in such a manner that warranted it. 

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A Head of Security should know this.  If you are chiefly responsible for enforcing regulations, you need to know regulations.  This is going to be a recurring theme in the rest of my complaint- Either Outboard doesn't know regulations, or he elects to ignore them in favor of 'winning.'  Both are incredibly problematic for an HoS. I ahelped to alb at this point and he informed Siganto of this directive.

Alb didn't inform me of any regulation, he basically just cleared me. How do I ignore anything in the favor of 'winning' ? I play a character that responds to security situations based on what he thinks should reasonably happen and based on the information that gets to him, often second hand, often not very reliable. 

As for what you're actually complaining about, I was blowing smoke up your ass to get you to back off since you kept trying to vote kick on every single thing that I did like some sort of child. 

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Again, an HoS should know this regulation.  It is poor play ICly because it is literally illegal, it is poor play OOCly because you're just taking someone out of the round for an hour for even daring to be near an antag.  I'd argue an HoS consistently breaking regulations should not be able to play HoS- they would not stay employed for long, it's immersion breaking.

I wished it stopped here, but it did not. While in the brig, handcuffed to a chair for nearly half an hour with no sentence, I witnessed Siganto drag a battered, bleeding man into processing.  The man was coughing up blood and gasping, his lungs were clearly ruptured.  I don't even know what his crime was, but it's completely unacceptable to just leave a man dying in processing.  I am including a full series of screenshots here so you can see how long it took between the first moment I saw the man cough up blood and the moment where medical was actually called.  It took me ahelping garn to get the man any medical help.

Bruh you aided an antagonist escape that ended up with her being gunned down dead. You are downplaying your own involvement and feigning innocence. You were handcuffed to a chair for 20 minutes with no sentence because I had no time to micromanage you when I had many other things to deal with, and while I apologize for the delay in your sentencing, and how my officers allegedly went against my orders and gave you lengthy sentence, I was busy dealing with other things and couldn't give you the personal attention you desired. 

The guy handcuffed in the chair in processing went sicko mode in the lobby with a stolen beepsky stun baton, I called for medical later on because I don't have the time to micromanage every prisoner that came in and only noticed the gasping after I had came back after a while. It's easy for you to sit there and seethe because you were captured but I was busy zipping around doing a lot of other shit and I was quite frankly overwhelmed. 

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At this point, all of command agree this HoS has to go.  We make a unanimous vote to remove him, CCIA is faxed.  Siganto STILL does not hand over the spare ID he stole, the shotgun on his back, nothing.  CCIA spawns in a Captain to get the situation under control and take his IDs, he still has a shotgun on his back.

Yeah, I was busy doing other things and wasn't keeping up with the command drama. I was also meeting up with a Vaurca cadet to get him his Avowal of Responsibility paperwork so he could be an Officer. I wasn't going to ruin one of the few chances he probably had at getting that Avowal just because you were seething over comms. 

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So in one round we have failing to meet Directive 11, breaking Directive 2/illegal detainment, mistreatment of prisoners, and exceeding official powers.  Either Outboard does not know any of these regulations he's breaking, in which case he should not be playing HoS, or he knows these regulations and is willfully breaking them (while loyalty implanted)anyway, in which case he should not have a command whitelist.

These were not the only offenses.  These are just the ones I witnessed.  As I understand it, the characters Luna Evans, Scarlet Moore, Oliver Roadman, and ODIN have all also had encounters with him in the last 24 hours, but I don't want to speak for them and have chosen to only mention what I have screenshots of or directly witnessed.  I trust more will come out about his playstyle if you ask them for their accounts.  

Lastly, as a note, I've elected to make a player complaint instead of an IR because I believe these are OOC issues with validhunting and a poor understanding/willful ignorance of regulations.  I do not think this is a believable character.

Not even going to address this first prompt because it's just stupid. 

Okay, then let them speak, I can address them. 

Don't come at me with that "believable character" crap. Do you think that a CMO who supposedly is a very well spoken, very well educated man like yours is supposed to be would throw a fit over literally anything revolving around security or command decisions that he finds unfavorable to his personal moral opinion ? Does NanoTrasen hire children like your Chief Medical Officer who, as a believable character would, on an earlier round, facilitate mass suicide and volunteer himself to become a skeleton because "lol why not". This is hypocrisy of the highest order, and it isn't even true. 

I was not coached on regulations by any admin during this round, this is your power fantasy. 

Did I fuck up this round ? Yeah, I made a few fucking mistakes, but I did what I did with the information I had and how I think my character would have gone about doing it. If you don't agree with that that's perfectly fine, nobody is forcing you to like me or like my character. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Outboarduniform

[Sytic]

My only issue is entirely IC, but it does break what I think is the expectations of legitimate characters.

Consider this: Stating, during a highly tense scenario against a force which may or may not have more firepower than you (iirc, Sophie was busy recharging the laser guns while we went at them) to charge the Vault and everybody inside, under the notion that the Head of Security wants them to lay down their life for what is effectively nice things, but in the long term, pocket change for NT, is more damaging than playing it cool and making sure the Vault is safe and so is personnel. The monetary cost of anybody revealing "Yeah, the Head of Security called us to charge a bunch of guys with automatic rifles under threat of death because they took some stuff out of the vault" is unbelievable should it break out. You're essentially roleplaying a 40k Commissar in a very liberal left environment. How do you think that'd go if it were revealed?

Your zealotry got your character killed. When ODIN dragged you out when you went down, you didn't survive a few tiles. Admittedly I should have grabbed you, but I was also in the line of fire, and unlike Juan's whims that round, ODIN prefers to be not dead. So I sacrificed speed and considered that once you were behind the barricades, I'd grab you the rest of the way.

That is my only point. Prioritize staff lives over shinies in general. Don't attempt to sacrifice your entire Security department for the Vault. The rest of Security was able to eliminate all but one of the heisters after this scenario, because we worked together shortly after you died and prioritized positioning and cooperation, but I cannot say whether you did or did not earlier, as I was not present. We worked together and got a result that was amicable. They stole a high value item but ICly, it would have probably ended up being useless to them. We got some prisoners and most other staff were fine. Generally, if you prioritize Security lives, you get Security lives able to take advantage of more opportune scenarios in the future, expanded coverage of ability to shut down additional threats, and ICly no lawsuits.

That's all. Don't just go full 40k Commissar. That really didn't make any sense to me. I noticed no other problems with Juan nor the player themselves.

[Outboarduniform]

1 minute ago, Sytic said:

My only issue is entirely IC, but it does break what I think is the expectations of legitimate characters.

Consider this: Stating, during a highly tense scenario against a force which may or may not have more firepower than you (iirc, Sophie was busy recharging the laser guns while we went at them) to charge the Vault and everybody inside, under the notion that the Head of Security wants them to lay down their life for what is effectively nice things, but in the long term, pocket change for NT, is more damaging than playing it cool and making sure the Vault is safe and so is personnel. The monetary cost of anybody revealing "Yeah, the Head of Security called us to charge a bunch of guys with automatic rifles under threat of death because they took some stuff out of the vault" is unbelievable should it break out. You're essentially roleplaying a 40k Commissar in a very liberal left environment. How do you think that'd go if it were revealed?

Your zealotry got your character killed. When ODIN dragged you out when you went down, you didn't survive a few tiles. Admittedly I should have grabbed you, but I was also in the line of fire, and unlike Juan's whims that round, ODIN prefers to be not dead. So I sacrificed speed and considered that once you were behind the barricades, I'd grab you the rest of the way.

That is my only point. Prioritize staff lives over shinies in general. Don't attempt to sacrifice your entire Security department for the Vault. The rest of Security was able to eliminate all but one of the heisters after this scenario, because we worked together shortly after you died and prioritized positioning and cooperation, but I cannot say whether you did or did not earlier, as I was not present. We worked together and got a result that was amicable. They stole a high value item but ICly, it would have probably ended up being useless to them. We got some prisoners and most other staff were fine. Generally, if you prioritize Security lives, you get Security lives able to take advantage of more opportune scenarios in the future, expanded coverage of ability to shut down additional threats, and ICly no lawsuits.

That's all. Don't just go full 40k Commissar. That really didn't make any sense to me. I noticed no other problems with Juan nor the player themselves.

Alright, I'll bite. 

I can accept this critique because while I personally think that it is the opposite, that security exists to defend corporate property first and foremost (as they are not an actual police force) and ought to lay down their lives for it, as it is indeed their job as security, I can accept that that one moment was a little goofy and I probably should have taken the more cautious approach. 

As to why I died early on, I got trapped in the vault area and was separated from security during the copious use of smoke grenades. The guy popped out with a bullpup he had stolen from us and opened fire. Not much you can do against a bullpup, sadly. 

 

[Resilynn]

5 hours ago, Outboarduniform said:

Alright, I'll bite. 

I can accept this critique because while I personally think that it is the opposite, that security exists to defend corporate property first and foremost (as they are not an actual police force) and ought to lay down their lives for it, as it is indeed their job as security, I can accept that that one moment was a little goofy and I probably should have taken the more cautious approach. 

As to why I died early on, I got trapped in the vault area and was separated from security during the copious use of smoke grenades. The guy popped out with a bullpup he had stolen from us and opened fire. Not much you can do against a bullpup, sadly. 

 

"Additionally, keep your character's goals in mind. For example, as security, during a traitor round, your goal is not to catch traitors, but ensure the safety of the station and provide assistance as needed."

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The guy handcuffed in the chair in processing went sicko mode in the lobby with a stolen beepsky stun baton, I called for medical later on because I don't have the time to micromanage every prisoner that came in and only noticed the gasping after I had came back after a while.

You were standing next to him while he was gasping the entire time.

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Yeah, I was busy doing other things and wasn't keeping up with the command drama. I was also meeting up with a Vaurca cadet to get him his Avowal of Responsibility paperwork so he could be an Officer.

That's wonderful that you're involving your vaurcafriend, but you were ignoring a Captain level decision to do so.

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Luna Evans tried to shield the suspect and was pushed out of the way, as I had it reported to me.

I'm entertained that you think so.  This is what happened to the CSI (a crew member) that was shot in the lobby, she was standing in the way because officers opened fire wordlessly with lethals.  The officers in question even profusely apologized, you did nothing about them firing on your own department.

As for the rest, viewing the 'command drama' as petty is exactly the problem here.  We need to understand the situation so we can keep the rest of the players informed.  Security is not secret ops.  The fact that you had three command players who are normally in a vague state of odds with one another unanimously in support of your removal speaks wonders.  You are not, as you were claiming, acting captain, and command did not need to 'stay in their lane.'  You need to know regulations, you need to know your role.

[Rushodan]

Hello, I was Sophie Hawkins in both rounds. As per usual.

For the first round I can't really comment due to my role not really permitting front line combat, so instead I just recharged a few guns for people. Yes I did see the infamous quote and yes I did witness the aftermath of pure carnage...however I don't really have anything more to add on that one.

What I can talk about is the second round, where I was a vamp. Security tried to detain me after I was spotted drinking blood from a blood pack like a juice box and after a bunch of screeching and evading I was eventually tossed into solitary for the station's safety...I guess.

Now, here's one nice thing I have to say about Juan/Outboard....when an officer tried to take my PDA and headset due to a full strip, the HoS acknowledged my claim that I am allowed to keep my communication devices and made sure to get them back to me. However....

What I proceeded to witness from the rest of the round was a whole heap of neglect towards prisoners. I ended up hulking out because I was abandoned in solitary, even as I pleaded for help which lead to security gunning me down. I witnessed Fernando sit in processing for 20 minutes, and then serving a 30 minute sentence on top of that when Juan had ordered that the doctor should serve the bare minimum for his charges. I witnessed a man who was practically dying in processing but was not allowed to receive medical care. 

Medical staff were begging for their CMO back as they couldn't cope, a plea which was for the most part ignored.

NOW - while this all looks bad and was pretty ass to deal with, not all of it was the HoS' fault. They did have a pretty unhelpful sec team, no warden and seemed to be getting overwhelmed due to how crazy the round was. Does that excuse what happened? No, but I feel as if it partially explains it.

After that I was dead until a captain was brought in to help resolve things, a command meeting was called and both parties were allowed to explain themselves. Juan took their suspension well, honestly, without really contesting it or fighting back. 

[Outboarduniform]

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You were standing next to him while he was gasping the entire time.

If I remember correctly, I stood there for a minute or two to talk to you about your memory loss and then went back to my office. 

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That's wonderful that you're involving your vaurcafriend, but you were ignoring a Captain level decision to do so.

Yeah bro, I don't know, maybe I wasn't quick to cow to you because I was busy with other things. When the Captain arrived I was suspended, no big deal. 

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I'm entertained that you think so.  This is what happened to the CSI (a crew member) that was shot in the lobby, she was standing in the way because officers opened fire wordlessly with lethals.  The officers in question even profusely apologized, you did nothing about them firing on your own department.

As for the rest, viewing the 'command drama' as petty is exactly the problem here.  We need to understand the situation so we can keep the rest of the players informed.  Security is not secret ops.  The fact that you had three command players who are normally in a vague state of odds with one another unanimously in support of your removal speaks wonders.  You are not, as you were claiming, acting captain, and command did not need to 'stay in their lane.'  You need to know regulations, you need to know your role.

the CSI purposely stood in the way, as I had been told. Friendly fire also happens more often than you think. 

Want me to prosecute for that, buddy ? 

"We need to understand the situation so we can keep the rest of the players informed". I don't think absolutely everyone on the station has to be informed of the break-in. I've already posted my reasoning on this, basically beating a dead horse. 

You haven't addressed the other things I have said in my response. 

[Outboarduniform]

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Hello, I was Sophie Hawkins in both rounds. As per usual.

For the first round I can't really comment due to my role not really permitting front line combat, so instead I just recharged a few guns for people. Yes I did see the infamous quote and yes I did witness the aftermath of pure carnage...however I don't really have anything more to add on that one.

What I can talk about is the second round, where I was a vamp. Security tried to detain me after I was spotted drinking blood from a blood pack like a juice box and after a bunch of screeching and evading I was eventually tossed into solitary for the station's safety...I guess.

Now, here's one nice thing I have to say about Juan/Outboard....when an officer tried to take my PDA and headset due to a full strip, the HoS acknowledged my claim that I am allowed to keep my communication devices and made sure to get them back to me. However....

What I proceeded to witness from the rest of the round was a whole heap of neglect towards prisoners. I ended up hulking out because I was abandoned in solitary, even as I pleaded for help which lead to security gunning me down. I witnessed Fernando sit in processing for 20 minutes, and then serving a 30 minute sentence on top of that when Juan had ordered that the doctor should serve the bare minimum for his charges. I witnessed a man who was practically dying in processing but was not allowed to receive medical care. 

Medical staff were begging for their CMO back as they couldn't cope, a plea which was for the most part ignored.

NOW - while this all looks bad and was pretty ass to deal with, not all of it was the HoS' fault. They did have a pretty unhelpful sec team, no warden and seemed to be getting overwhelmed due to how crazy the round was. Does that excuse what happened? No, but I feel as if it partially explains it.

After that I was dead until a captain was brought in to help resolve things, a command meeting was called and both parties were allowed to explain themselves. Juan took their suspension well, honestly, without really contesting it or fighting back. 

Yes, it was decided that you be detained after we found out you succ'd Riker. Typical security v. vamp move. 

I did indeed give you back your headset and PDA. Like I said, I can't micromanage the actions of every single member of my department, especially not during a round that was as chaotic as this. 

As for the neglect, I ordered the processing and listed out the charges fairly early on. Like I said, I only noticed the gasping person later on because of how hectic everything was. It was getting a little crazy up in there! It was making me kinda kooky! 

Medical can survive without their CMO. 

Thank you for appreciating the fact that I can't be everywhere at once, and that I can't micromanage everyone, despite what happened. If I could keep track of everyone and do everything for them like some sort of omnipotent god than obviously things would have gone a lot different. 

[Rushodan]

2 minutes ago, Outboarduniform said:

The CSI purposely stood in the way, as I had been told. Friendly fire also happens more often than you think. 

Want me to prosecute for that, buddy ? 

This is going to be my final input because I don't want to clutter the thread, but I was the CSI. And yes...the reason I stood in the way is because the armed cadet and officer were going to light up an unarmed and nonthreatening guest to the medical bay. I wasn't going to stand by and let some guy get shot to pieces.

My hope was that the officers would not open fire....instead they mag dumped me. I kind of wish some action was taken for that, but I can't complain as I did not press the matter. 

[Outboarduniform]

3 hours ago, SHODAN said:

This is going to be my final input because I don't want to clutter the thread, but I was the CSI. And yes...the reason I stood in the way is because the armed cadet and officer were going to light up an unarmed and nonthreatening guest to the medical bay. I wasn't going to stand by and let some guy get shot to pieces.

My hope was that the officers would not open fire....instead they mag dumped me. I kind of wish some action was taken for that, but I can't complain as I did not press the matter. 

I had heard about that but I didn’t want to evaporate my manpower during a merc attack. If the situation had resolved I would have dealt with them.

"Additionally, keep your character's goals in mind. For example, as security, during a traitor round, your goal is not to catch traitors, but ensure the safety of the station and provide assistance as needed."

Forgot to address this, but thank you for telling me how to do my job, very cool!

Haha believe it or not bro the vault is kind of a big deal and I kind of have to keep it secure!

I guess I overstepped by boundaries by defending it though, after all, all I do is valid in your opinion! 

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Outboarduniform

[Lady Fowl]

Keep this civil, acting overly sarcastic or coy like this does not help anybody

[Faris]

I’m handling this when I’m back. Expect a few days delay before I post anything major.

 

For now, I’m going to look over the passive aggression, sarcasm and overall unpleasant attitude I’ve read in favor of hoping that any post after this has a good amount of decorum. If not, strikes will be applied even if it means you become muted from posting on the forums. 

[SatinsPristOTD]

I was mentioned in this. I spoke to the player on the Security Discord, but sometimes I can get a little memey in that sort of forum. I'll post what I said here because, while I believe you listened, I'm unsure if you agreed about the gross negligence that occurred.

First, let's all recognize I was a turned vampire antag that round, but, I hadn't actually done anything that round to even bring the slightest bit of suspicion to my character. I was the Research Director, and a well known Captain to at least TWO (and quite a bit more crew) Command members. While Moore doesn't get along with Gonzales on a "teehee we're best buddies" level, it doesn't change the fact that she carries a bit of respect.

I called Roadman into my office for several reasons. One, the two characters actually have an on-going little plot, and I was able to use this plot to gain access to his blood. For some reason (and I still don't know why RoseTango just FOLLOWS Roadman around on Cameras, as if she's looking for antaggery to hit Command), Samara Watson was stalking him on cameras, and she witnessed Moore "straddling" Roadman. At the same time, Pennant (Who had also just... meta'd the hell out of my situation, but that's another story) IMMEDIATELY enters my office, grabs Oliver (who barely had any blood missing, as I didn't get time to succ) and threw him on a roller bed before anyone could get any RP off. The entire situation was very suspicious of metagaming the round type, but that's not even the tip of my iceberg for what happened.

Security rushes in and demands I get on the ground. I speak to Roadman, over Command, and Roadman AGREE'S WITH ME that there was no assault, or battery. He was confused, that was all. I played it off as the two had gotten a little heavy handed in her office, as Moore does use Oliver as an emotional crutch sometimes. The Commander didn't care, nor did his team. They threatened to shoot me if I didn't get on the ground (like I was some kind of murdering criminal). I complied. This entire time, the Commander is refusing to listen to Command or the victim who says nothing happened.

I'll write it off as "Well there were OTHER vampires", but you don't treat a Command member like that over a battery charge. You don't have them stripped of everything but their skirt, left in prisoner intake until the OFFICER decides to do "interrogation", and shoved BACK INTO prisoner intake until they've EXCEEDED the maximum time limit for the supposed crime they committed. The interrogation was just me being threatened.

The only person on that team that realized they were holding a command member over the maximum sentence for battery, was Oscar Easter. He released me, but HE got threatened to be shot for releasing me. The Commander deemed me a HuT, according to his officer, and I actually had to ahelp at that point, because HuTing me over that was too valid'y for my taste.

The complaint is you didn't organize your department, in the slightest. YES, you ARE in charge of knowing what happens in your department. Do mistakes happen? Of course they do. I'm not perfect either, but I RECTIFY WHAT WENT WRONG when I find out. You were told over, and over, and OVER that your team was wrong, and yet you STILL did not even attempt to step in and fix it.

It got to the extent that we called for your removal. If you weren't going to control them, we didn't need you. All you were doing was feeding them fuel.

[Outboarduniform]

3 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

I was mentioned in this. I spoke to the player on the Security Discord, but sometimes I can get a little memey in that sort of forum. I'll post what I said here because, while I believe you listened, I'm unsure if you agreed about the gross negligence that occurred.

First, let's all recognize I was a turned vampire antag that round, but, I hadn't actually done anything that round to even bring the slightest bit of suspicion to my character. I was the Research Director, and a well known Captain to at least TWO (and quite a bit more crew) Command members. While Moore doesn't get along with Gonzales on a "teehee we're best buddies" level, it doesn't change the fact that she carries a bit of respect.

I called Roadman into my office for several reasons. One, the two characters actually have an on-going little plot, and I was able to use this plot to gain access to his blood. For some reason (and I still don't know why RoseTango just FOLLOWS Roadman around on Cameras, as if she's looking for antaggery to hit Command), Samara Watson was stalking him on cameras, and she witnessed Moore "straddling" Roadman. At the same time, Pennant (Who had also just... meta'd the hell out of my situation, but that's another story) IMMEDIATELY enters my office, grabs Oliver (who barely had any blood missing, as I didn't get time to succ) and threw him on a roller bed before anyone could get any RP off. The entire situation was very suspicious of metagaming the round type, but that's not even the tip of my iceberg for what happened.

Security rushes in and demands I get on the ground. I speak to Roadman, over Command, and Roadman AGREE'S WITH ME that there was no assault, or battery. He was confused, that was all. I played it off as the two had gotten a little heavy handed in her office, as Moore does use Oliver as an emotional crutch sometimes. The Commander didn't care, nor did his team. They threatened to shoot me if I didn't get on the ground (like I was some kind of murdering criminal). I complied. This entire time, the Commander is refusing to listen to Command or the victim who says nothing happened.

I'll write it off as "Well there were OTHER vampires", but you don't treat a Command member like that over a battery charge. You don't have them stripped of everything but their skirt, left in prisoner intake until the OFFICER decides to do "interrogation", and shoved BACK INTO prisoner intake until they've EXCEEDED the maximum time limit for the supposed crime they committed. The interrogation was just me being threatened.

The only person on that team that realized they were holding a command member over the maximum sentence for battery, was Oscar Easter. He released me, but HE got threatened to be shot for releasing me. The Commander deemed me a HuT, according to his officer, and I actually had to ahelp at that point, because HuTing me over that was too valid'y for my taste.

The complaint is you didn't organize your department, in the slightest. YES, you ARE in charge of knowing what happens in your department. Do mistakes happen? Of course they do. I'm not perfect either, but I RECTIFY WHAT WENT WRONG when I find out. You were told over, and over, and OVER that your team was wrong, and yet you STILL did not even attempt to step in and fix it.

It got to the extent that we called for your removal. If you weren't going to control them, we didn't need you. All you were doing was feeding them fuel.

Now, let’s start off with your first issue past your introduction. You must understand that how things are reported to me are not exactly as they may have happened. This is exactly what I ended up hearing.

”The Research Director has the Chief Engineer pinned to the ground in her office !”

This was followed by....

“The Chief Engineer just got wheeled out of the Research Directors office !”

So, Security ended up arriving at your office shortly based off of that. Can’t really say much about the RoseTango situation, but sloppy antaggery usually ends up with you being caught, which was what happened.

Now, you’re also writing this like I know the intricate details behind you and the Chief Engineer’s relationship. I do not. 

I created an arrest warrant with an assault charge and wanted to have you brought in to be questioned while I was busy with everything else going on.

So, an officer ended up interrogating you. As soon as they bring the report to my office, they slam it on my desk and say that you were extremely suspicious and that they could tell something was off. I read the interview and found it to be mediocre at best, however. 

So, at this moment I was getting cleared by Garn because Gonzales was ahelp spamming and seething so I wasn’t really able to go and actually talk to you at this point, which I wanted to do.

I also had to deal with that sudden Easter/Vaurca Avowal recommendation that happened in the middle of nowhere and I just rolled with that. I’m pretty sure that happened during your interrogation but I could be mixing that part up.

I ended up making the decision that you were probably like Hawkins in some capacity because of the same exact circumstances which happened to another officer when we found out they had ended up attacked by Hawkins. What was this, might you ask ?

1. No recollection of events, confusion where there shouldn’t be, etc., all that Roadman displayed.

2. Obviously being attacked/“straddled”/“pinned down” in some capacity, which RoseTango and pennant made quite clear happened.

So, after that, what happened with Easter. 

I had tied up things with Garn and just got cleared to continue on and then Easter informed me that they had released you. I had told him of my reasoning of wanting to keep you in custody, and why I thought you were like Hawkins, to which he replied, “I didn’t know that, sir.”

Small communications issue, but it was resolved.

So obviously, since you were already released I figured that maybe just putting you on an actual watch and then waiting for actual solid concrete proof outside of “He said, she said, and Roadman has amnesia”, situation. 

I don’t know where you got the Easter threatened to be shot from, though. Either this never happened or some random officer said that and nobody reported it.

Right so, moving on, this is a problem both of you seem to have, that I’ve noticed. None of you seem to have any sense of appropriate timing at all when it comes to dealing with internal issues.

If the round had calmed down I would have addressed any complaints regarding around security and their conduct.

It’s very unrealistic for any of you to think I would immediately attempt to evaporate my manpower because of a complaint, or “security is treating me too roughly, etc.” 

When I want to remove an officer or take a disciplinary action I don’t do it in the middle of a round that’s popping so hot that officers are sprinting from security call to security call and I myself can’t even keep track of everything. 

I don’t cater to complaints and image during rounds that pop off like this. If we weren’t so crazily overwhelmed and moving from thing to thing to thing to thing and all was quiet on the western front, I would cater to them. 

Both of you never saw the inner workings of security that round. You didn’t have to deal with half of the things I did, all you did was lodge complaint after complaint when I had actual problems to deal with. 

If you can’t understand that during a security round as crazy as that I wouldn’t be willing to upheave the entire department to fix disciplinary issues and rectify things resolving from complaints, I think you have unrealistic expectations. 

Now, on the general part, I admit that there were a lot of fuckups this round. Some were mine, a lot were beholden to Officers’ Behavior that ended up being attributed to me, and I’m not denying that I fucked up certain things during this particular round. It got really fucky wucky ! I was going a little kooky trying to take care of it!

Other than that, if you have anything else for me, I’ll address that as well.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Outboarduniform

[Resilynn]

Can you please clarify what you mean by ahelp spamming?

[Outboarduniform]

2 hours ago, Resilynn said:

Can you please clarify what you mean by ahelp spamming?

An exaggeration: It is clear that you sent multiple ahelps throughout the course of the two rounds mentioned.

[SatinsPristOTD]

Your department reflects your ability to Command. If they act up, you handle the situation, even if it's "in the middle of a round that is popping off". Because their fuck ups will ONLY get worse and make things worse. You should ABSOLUTELY be the one to handle a Command member if they're being arrested.

They arent some fucky janitor. These are high clearance people. You were told, NUMEROUS TIMES, over Command channel that no crime occured. Even Roadman was going along with the gimmick. You honestly did not listen to anything that was said over the Command channel, because I.. guess it didn't help you secure your valids.

Edited August 29, 2019 by SatinsPristOTD

[Resilynn]

You posted this on your whitelist application.  Do you still agree with it?

 

Quote

What do you think the OOC purpose of a Head of Staff is, ingame?:

Provide stability and order for their department. Commanding or leading your team/department with expert knowledge. Provide a medium for when things go horribly , horribly wrong.

 

[Outboarduniform]

2 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

Your department reflects your ability to Command. If they act up, you handle the situation, even if it's "in the middle of a round that is popping off". Because their fuck ups will ONLY get worse and make things worse. You should ABSOLUTELY be the one to handle a Command member if they're being arrested.

They arent some fucky janitor. These are high clearance people. You were told, NUMEROUS TIMES, over Command channel that no crime occured. Even Roadman was going along with the gimmick. You honestly did not listen to anything that was said over the Command channel, because I.. guess it didn't help you secure your valids.

So you completely ignored what I said about timing. Like I said before, I’m not going to upheave my department during the middle of a crazy round because of rough handling during an arrest.

Why would I directly handle a head of staff if I had the power to delegate authority for my subordinates to handle them for me ? 

There were only three people over the command channel at that time, the arrested CMO, the suspect, and the suspects alleged victim. Why on Earth would I listen to any of them, realistically, when I have unbiased reports of what happened from two other people unrelated ?

The only ”valid” that happened is when your sloppy antag play ended poorly. You could have just picked somewhere less conspicuous and neither me or anyone in security would have even been aware of your antagonist antics.

If you can give a realistic argument on why I shouldn’t have pursued your case with reasonable suspicion and related it to Hawkins I’ll hear it out, though!

Edited August 29, 2019 by Outboarduniform

[Outboarduniform]

2 hours ago, Resilynn said:

You posted this on your whitelist application.  Do you still agree with it?

 

 

If I didn’t believe it I wouldn’t have written it. Stability for your department and good control and command of those under you to a reasonable level. 

To achieve this you also need to understand how to time events, especially those that could destroy the effectiveness and stability of your department, such as what you two advocated for quite prominently.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Outboarduniform

[Resilynn]

3 minutes ago, Outboarduniform said:

If I didn’t believe it I wouldn’t have written it. What context are you using this for, if I could ask ?

The part you elected to ignore because it was "just stupid."

 

Quote

So in one round we have failing to meet Directive 11, breaking Directive 2/illegal detainment, mistreatment of prisoners, and exceeding official powers.  Either Outboard does not know any of these regulations he's breaking, in which case he should not be playing HoS, or he knows these regulations and is willfully breaking them.

 

[Outboarduniform]

2 hours ago, Resilynn said:

The part you elected to ignore because it was "just stupid."

 

 

Directive 11 was met adequately. CCIA notices are, for the most part, left up to interpretation for a reason.

If anything your argument stems from the supposed breaking of CCIA directives. Like I said, I ordered you to be processed with minimum charges early on, but nobody ended up attending to you due to many other situations and me dealing with other things. I expected you to have already been dealt with but it appeared that you were left there, even with charges and such being ordered after your arrest. 

I’ve been playing Siganto for years. If I didn’t know or intended on breaking regulations I would have been long gone and had my whitelist stripped much much earlier than this complaint. 

Let’s look at Directive 11. 

When it becomes clear that an significant incident is arising that could effect standard operations of the station or cause significant damange to crew or property

In my opinion, I wouldn’t have even made a Directive 11 announcement about the break-in. 

I did it only to appease command, because I have first hand know how of how both of your characters operate, and in a half-assed way because it wasn’t required or necessary based on the directive description.

Its already been explained why the delay happened and I’ve already said I was sorry for the unfortunate delay in your case. Like I keep saying, it was getting kooky up in there!

Now, regarding Directive 2. 

Rivers talked to me and I kept DC’ing so I couldn’t hear what they said, but they slid me the acting captains ID card.

Now, again, regarding wording. 

 it is preferred

and

standard operation

I had the ID card, it was not standard operation, and lastly, 

a specific Departmental Head of Staff may be elevated above others, should the crisis situation fall under the responsibility of their department. At that point, other departments should act in a supporting role.

(Per Directive 1)

Now, you could say that “Directive 1 only applies when a Captain is in command”,  but it also helps to clarify the relationship between command in general, and applies with and without a Captain.

You could also say that “this doesn’t mean you’re acting captain, you have to be democratically voted in!”

But, where are you left anyways ? You are essentially always elevated as Head of Security for a multitude of reasons, and inevitably I ended up Acting Captain in all but real, voted on authority and name. 

In the end, I said that to your character because I was essentially De-Facto Acting Captain, but not De-Jure, and thought it would prudently get you off of my back for 10 minutes.

I rest my case, but then again, I was mainly just blowing smoke up your ass with what I was saying, I really wanted you to back off and give me a second to breathe, since every time some complaint popped up you immediately go to vote to kick me out of command, which is what rational, well educated, well paid, and reasonable human beings do!

I would also like to take the time to say that being a good person is not a requirement for being a Head of Security. If you haven’t noticed, my HoS is not set up to be a nice person. He’s kind of an asshole! Especially to other command members that he ICly thinks shouldn’t be nosing in on things they don’t need to be nosing in on! Especially with characters that also have reputations or behaviors like both of yours do!

You could even argue that with the circumstantial evidence around the delay in your processing, that it constitutes a timely manner based on the CCIA notice !

Not that I want to take that route though, I had wanted you processed and dealt with much earlier !

Edited August 29, 2019 by Outboarduniform

[Faris]

I need round ID’s to look over the logs. From what I gather these cited incidents occur over multiple rounds? 

[Resilynn]

3 hours ago, Aboshedab said:

I need round ID’s to look over the logs. From what I gather these cited incidents occur over multiple rounds? 

Most of the complaint revolves around one round, the ID of which is attached to the OP.

[Faris]

11 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Most of the complaint revolves around one round, the ID of which is attached to the OP.

Do you have round ID's of what isn't covered by the word "most"?