Scout Service for RnD/mining (edited) (This doesn't touch sec slots anymore)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Per the update security isn't changed in job slots. 

[Rushodan]

The only issue I have with this currently is the number of slots. Five scouts is more than the number of officers that are supposed to be covering the main station and every floor of it. I don't feel as if the scout cadet and ranger roles are needed, as to be honest if you want someone in EVA with a bigger gun call in your security department. Ideally we want to be working together more, so if the scouts see something they can't handle an officer or two can be sent EVA to assist.

I'd turn it down to 1/2 scouts plus their leader. They have their mobility equipment and light weaponry, as well as the other gear listed in the suggestion.

Security have cadets if people want to learn the basics of the game in a safe environment (non-eva and without holes to get ganked by), as well as all the other department training roles. We don't need more training roles.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

A lack of a scout cadet brings us to a reasonable number. The ranger is important for the mouthfeel of the department and character rp potential. Idk why it needs less slots than sec.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[CampinKiller]

So HoS characters go fuck themselves and become HoPs or just get put under the command of someone with no security experience?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

No. It's only the scouts being added. 

[DronzTheWolf]

Upon thinking about this, I had an idea of how it could go. 

Somewhat similar to Cargo, with a Ranger mirroring the QM and 2-3 slots for Scouts mirroring Cargo Techs

[Rushodan]

20 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

A lack of a scout cadet brings us to a reasonable number. The ranger is important for the mouthfeel of the department and character rp potential. Idk why it needs less slots than sec.

Okay, I had a think and I agree with it being fine if the cadet is dropped.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

On 06/09/2019 at 11:59, SHODAN said:

Okay, I had a think and I agree with it being fine if the cadet is dropped.

Are you SURE? I had a lot of wholesome vibes from a genuine boy scout style role and im starting to cool on it being sropped. 5 slots on high pop may not be toooo much. We can always drop it later. Can we try it and see how it goes?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=User:Senpai_Jackboot#The_Positions

I've made a test page on my userpage on the wiki. Alpha early access. All information is written informally, and any equipment/access/qualifications are subject to change large or small.

I've asked for volunteers to prepare a PR some time in the future. We need:

[  ] Sprites for the uniforms
[  ] Mapping in Ranger Cabin prep area in/near RnD.
[  ] Coding of job titles, access.

These are the concept photos for the uniform and voidsuit:

Uniform: Cream shirts, green vests, those Ranger hats. An alternate with shorts.

Spoiler

Voidsuit: Full glass helmet offering 360 degrees and putting out an old style aesthetic. Color undecided. Has that SICK half poncho.

Spoiler

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

 

 

Preliminary sprites by Dronz.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I think this is a good spot for their prep area.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

(The sprite with the hat includes the vest and hat. It also has the patches before being fixed.)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Some more adjustments done by Amory combining his aesthetic with dronz. Caesar better watch out.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

@Skull132 are you sure this is too much like actual park rangers? The uniform is from several sources.

[Skull132]

Now they look like boy scouts mixed with park rangers. At best, you're trying to hit a retro-future vibe which we've basically drawn and quartered on this server. At worst, you're sticking with essentially American imagery and getting something which looks horribly out of place on a space station in the year 2456.

As I have stated before, I will state again. I would prefer a sleek jumpsuit set ala Mass Effect: Andromeda. Something which actually facilitates the regular usage of a space suit, as opposed to something you're expected to wear as is most of the time.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

27 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

Now they look like boy scouts mixed with park rangers. At best, you're trying to hit a retro-future vibe which we've basically drawn and quartered on this server. At worst, you're sticking with essentially American imagery and getting something which looks horribly out of place on a space station in the year 2456.

As I have stated before, I will state again. I would prefer a sleek jumpsuit set ala Mass Effect: Andromeda. Something which actually facilitates the regular usage of a space suit, as opposed to something you're expected to wear as is most of the time.

As someone who does a lot of outdoorsy stuff i cannot fathom going on extended camping trips or expeditions wearing a jumpsuit. I will be a walking zip-lock bag full of sweat. People dress as they do for a reason.

I can make an alternative jumpsuit however. Options are good? Give us a bit.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Nantei]

44 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

As someone who does a lot of outdoorsy stuff i cannot fathom going on extended camping trips or expeditions wearing a jumpsuit. I will be a walking zip-lock bag full of sweat. People dress as they do for a reason.

I can make an alternative jumpsuit however. Options are good? Give us a bit.

Issue I have with this argument is Rangers often will be in EVA, or otherwise in space suits. I can buy this for being on-station, but for going out in suits sleeker, insulated clothing makes a lot more sense. Real astronauts wear something fairly similar to a jumpsuit when they are suiting up. Considering this might also be used on planets with hostile fauna, it might be a good idea for their jumpsuits to be a deep blue, red, white, or orange. Current day, their jumpsuits look more like some really hot one piece pajamas, but that has surely been improved with the improvements to material research.Basically the 'ideal' uniform for rangers out in the field would probably be low drag, low snag, with strong insulation for a variety of environments as well as improved survival in space should they have a suit leak or other mishap. And probably a distinct color that does not commonly occur naturally and would stand out among local plant life or on an asteroid. But their 'dress uniform' which would be stationside stuff, could be anything. NASA uses their flight suits basically as a dress uniform, seen here:

Spoiler

 

 

So perhaps their dress uniform should be something that at least looks practical for their primary job. (For us that'd be exploring away sites, lore wise who knows.)

The park ranger aesthetic is cute, but I do agree that it clashes a bit. And I'll admit I'm a bit biased towards sleek 'futuristic' designs too.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Nantei

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I don't think theyd clash because theyre not given nt uniforms. Its a style fitting to their service.

ME Andromedas uniforms are ugly and dark as sin. Even the whites look like grays.

I will ask about emulating designs i find up to snuff.

Like this:

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Gray or tan top? (NO SHADING PRESENTED, ONLY COLOR OPTIONS)

[Nantei]

I am torn. I think tan? But I like both of them. Maybe tan with gray pants so the blue pops more? Both look nice.

[Skull132]

@Marlon Phoenix This is what I had in mind (the white on it is white, if you use different lighting):

Also, lmao:

10 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

As someone who does a lot of outdoorsy stuff i cannot fathom going on extended camping trips or expeditions wearing a jumpsuit. I will be a walking zip-lock bag full of sweat. People dress as they do for a reason.

They're not going on camping trips tho. They're being deployed to explore the frontier and derelict sites. In space. Something which one would assume is a regular thing they do, ergo, they would have clothing for this. Your fixation on having literal park rangers in this role is daft.

An anecdote on this matter:

Quote

Today on Aurorastation.

Literal park rangers coming to scout out derelicts. They say that their knowledge of mushrooms, woodland critters, and fire safety is bound to be helpful in these matters. Along with their large sun-shade hats.

 

[Skull132]

Before I read and address the proposal in-depth, allow me to present my opinion on the abstract of the idea. An initial mouthfeel, as it were. The concept of adding a whole new sub-department in support of a mechanic which is, currently, horribly under developed is an absolutely abhorrent idea. There are not enough away mission maps currently for the away missions to happen regularly, there is no major replay value to them, there is nothing to be done with them after they've been explored in a round (no good supporting mechanics). Jackboot proposed to me that the addition of the scouts is a foot in the door, and that they can be expanded upon later. Well, no, the addition of away missions was the foot in the door; adding 5 scouts to the mix, at present time, is like trying to shove a large dresser through it.

Now, about the suggestion in-depth.

First, to touch on their origins. I would prefer they not be from a TC/Government based group. While yes, Jackboot has attempted to counter this argument with, "Lol they're just scouts, they have no authority," I would heavily prefer to keep government organizations the heck away from gameplay. The reason for this is that it's going to clash rather morbidly with our goal of pursuit a corporate dystopian setting. Even if they "are just scouts", having government backed scouts present opens up the idea of, say, having the government want special control over some items discovered. While yes, it might be an interesting story thread to unravel, the issue with incorporate the government into this is that they tend to have the last say on matters. Even if not in practice (in our lore), then that will be the opinion that the players will take. In the past, for example and in the same vain, people have tried invoking TC law to override corp regs while playing sec; have tried to sway legalese while playing IAA or alternative roles. It is effectively a poison, a loaded gun, that I would prefer to keep the heck away from. Keep it corporate, keep it on the same level as everything else.

About their actual duties and gameplay now. As already highlighted in my opening statement, there are not enough mechanics or gameplay material to support a 5 whole new jobs. The wiki pages mention things like xenoflora, ferrying messages, SAR, exploration, advanced/outpost construction. Not many of these are possible or are activities of worth (yet). There's no new xenoflora or fauna to investigate, the exploration is minimal, there are no specific mechanics for setting up advanced labs. None of these items exist, and yet we should be dedicated a whole new sub-department to these things? Really? No.

When I asked Jackboot about this, and pointed this out in conversation, he proceeded to say that the scouts could then assist with matters already ingame (station matters, specifically). Here is the list of activities he provided, verbatim:

1. Away missions.
2. Going to other Z-levels and building outposts or dropping beacons to mess around in them.
3. Helping miners find resource deposits.
4. Culling cave dwellers and carp.
5. Looking for locations of interest.
6. Ferrying messages during comms outages.
7. Helping cargo carry crates around if they ask.
8. Help botany if they ask.

The items that I struck out are items which I already addressed in the previous paragraph, they're centered around away missions and mechanics which do not exist yet or do not have enough depth or replay value. The rest of them, however, are. Far fetched. 6 - 8 are useless busywork already fulfilled by other departments in a manner where those departments are more than capable of handling them. Further, those mechanics would require power-creep levels of access to be granted to the scouts. Which is a bad idea in and of itself. 3 - 4 are kinda there but again, the mechanics of random cave exploration aren't too fleshed out to dedicate an entire sub-department of 5 people to. That tone should be getting very familiar by this point.

I would also touch upon the literal park ranger aesthetic and how daft it is, but I did that above.

Summa summarum, this is way too much way too early. There are no good mechanics to support the idea of an entire sub-department, and it shows. We should first implement more away missions, implement better mechanics to support them, and add more shit for people to investigate or do there. As it stands, most of them are a very basic loop of, "Go through everything, loot it, done." There's nothing much to investigate, no deeper mysteries to unravel, no point in staying for longer. All of these are matters that need to be addressed before we start shoving this cabinet through the barely-open door.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

6 hours ago, Skull132 said:

Before I read and address the proposal in-depth, allow me to present my opinion on the abstract of the idea. An initial mouthfeel, as it were. The concept of adding a whole new sub-department in support of a mechanic which is, currently, horribly under developed is an absolutely abhorrent idea. There are not enough away mission maps currently for the away missions to happen regularly, there is no major replay value to them, there is nothing to be done with them after they've been explored in a round (no good supporting mechanics). Jackboot proposed to me that the addition of the scouts is a foot in the door, and that they can be expanded upon later. Well, no, the addition of away missions was the foot in the door; adding 5 scouts to the mix, at present time, is like trying to shove a large dresser through it.

There are two responses to this.

They have more responsibilities than the actual away missions. You touched on this later, and so will I. The second is that it's a bit odd to me that we cannot work on content for away missions because we don't have content for away missions. Should we be working backwards, with more maps, content, mechanics, and all the other stuff? I want to contribute to away missions, and this is where I feel I should start. With a dedicated exploration wing of RnD, there is the push to expand on that content.

You seem to be asking here for a major expansion pack or overhaul of expeditions with scouts attached to them. We need to have a DLC based development cycle. Small chunks at a time please.....

6 hours ago, Skull132 said:

First, to touch on their origins. I would prefer they not be from a TC/Government based group. While yes, Jackboot has attempted to counter this argument with, "Lol they're just scouts, they have no authority," I would heavily prefer to keep government organizations the heck away from gameplay.

Consulars are powerful diplomatic staff from every major faction in our setting, and they are not irrelevant to gameplay. Consulars can have major influences on a round if they play their cards right. To add highly ranked government officials, but not explorers from another unrelated agency, is not consistent to me. It's also an unfair comparison. Consulars are, for intents and purposes, members of Command.

Scouts are explicitly writ as being subordinate to the RD. They have no command authority. They cannot claim dig sites. They have as much authority within their department as other contractors have within their own. Worries about powercreep are always something to keep in mind, but I will consistently argue that the Scouts are built in such a way that power creep can be instantly recognized and countered. If someone wanted to give them special authority, say no. I would say no. I'm being made fun of for trying to strike a point between 'silly park rangers' and 'sleek scifi explorers' in part because the immense importance of visuals and mouthfeel has in these matters.

It's the difference between:

"I'm taking authority over this dig site. This is too important to our government. I am trained to use every weapon on this station and can handle any threat that arises from it. Move on your way, RD, you are no longer needed here."

Spoiler

and:
"I'm taking authority over this dig site. This is too important to our government. I am trained to use every weapon on this station and can handle any threat that arises from it. Move on your way, RD, you are no longer needed here."

Spoiler

They're on either end of this spectrum that I'm working with:

Our original sprites and themes were at the far left, and so they were not being taken very seriously at all. I don't want them to swing too far right, because with more cool themes, visuals, and themes, they can start getting advocates for that sort of power creep. I want to find a good spot in the green zone.

6 hours ago, Skull132 said:

Even if they "are just scouts", having government backed scouts present opens up the idea of, say, having the government want special control over some items discovered. [sic] people have tried invoking TC law to override corp regs while playing sec; have tried to sway legalese while playing IAA or alternative roles. [sic] Keep it corporate, keep it on the same level as everything else.

It is explicitly writ in their contract that the scouts with NT are subordinate to NT regs. In addition, in my tenure of loremaster NT regs always aligned with TC laws (and vice versa) to ensure that these sorts of things were not heavily exploited. What law do they have to cite to claim an item? If they simply refuse to hand it over, that's a violation of the regulations they agreed to. All stuff they find belongs to NT unless the captain or whoever goes "Sure, you can have this." The only way to have any legitimacy in these things is to have someone with a command ID fax Odin or Biesel directly. And even then, it is server staff that hold all of the cards.

Any "No, this is too dangerous, it must go to the republic!" is the same kind of conscientious objector RP that anyone can already do. And the station can arrest them. And NT can chew out the government for sending employees that violated their contract.

Any sort of power creep here has a much, much higher mountain to climb than Consulars, because Consulars are entirely independent and have special privileges and the backing of powerful empires. I myself as a consular have had my office under siege as I was processing an asylum request of a felon fleeing security, who could not legally enter my office to initiate and arrest until a captain gave the order. this is much, much more than the scouts can ever do.

6 hours ago, Skull132 said:

About their actual duties and gameplay now. As already highlighted in my opening statement, there are not enough mechanics or gameplay material to support a 5 whole new jobs. The wiki pages mention things like xenoflora, ferrying messages, SAR, exploration, advanced/outpost construction. Not many of these are possible or are activities of worth (yet). There's no new xenoflora or fauna to investigate, the exploration is minimal, there are no specific mechanics for setting up advanced labs. None of these items exist, and yet we should be dedicated a whole new sub-department to these things? Really? No.

>:O All of these responsibilities are attached to existing jobs and mechanics already! This is another area where I am trying to find a good spot on a spectrum. Any job I think should be able to have engagement when you are using its main mechanics and specialization, or on extended when the main mechanic of that job is not enough. This is the same mindset that I went into pushing the merging of Virologist into chemistry, which allows the resulting Biochem role to have busywork (chemistry) even when there's no diseases to cure. Where Scouts land on that spectrum can be continued to be worked on, but right now I believe their set of responsibilities is respectable. It can be outlined that Scouts can choose to specialize in different fields of stuff, so they can choose different things to do?

Quote

6 - 8 are useless busywork already fulfilled by other departments in a manner where those departments are more than capable of handling them.

That's kind of a minmaxy way to look at it... There is a small culture of assistants going around helping different departments all over the place and they don't tend to get thrown out for being unnecessary.

With all this said, I think I can agree that there are some stuff we can do on our end:

• Remove a slot by removing the Scout Leader Role as something they always have.
  • The RD can choose to anoint a current Scout or Ranger as the Leader if they want that extra delegation/supervisement/expedition coordination. This brings us to 4 slots. 2 scouts, 1 cadet, 1 ranger. Tiny, smol, but with enough to stay a cohesive group. Having a Leader role is an objective we can put off far later into development, when they have the need for it.
    • We can also make it possible for crew to join as cadets if they qualify, allowing more hands on deck if necessary.
  • Continue to work out the sprites.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Skull132]

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

The second is that it's a bit odd to me that we cannot work on content for away missions because we don't have content for away missions. Should we be working backwards, with more maps, content, mechanics, and all the other stuff? With a dedicated exploration wing of RnD, there is the push to expand on that content.

There are mechanics that come with prerequisites, and mechanics that build without having immense prerequisites. This falls into the former bin. There is nothing stopping us from implementing new exploration mechanics as it stands: the station has most of the equipment necessary to conduct away missions, and whatever new equipment is added can be given to RnD until a dedicated wing is created. However, again, you propose the creation of an entire sub department (I cannot get around the fact that it's 5 fucking people you're asking for) who would be relying on mechanics that do not exist. That is absurd and retarded. End of.

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

You seem to be asking here for a major expansion pack or overhaul of expeditions with scouts attached to them. We need to have a DLC based development cycle. Small chunks at a time please.....

Allow me to be extra-ordinarily clear. If an entire sub-department of 5 people and a separate chain of command is not a major expansion pack, then whatever definitions you are using are horribly out of touch with reality. Your general principle is correct. But this is not a small chunk. This chunk has prerequisites. Prerequisites that would be turned into promises. Promises are absolutely fucking unreliable in our development eco-system. Prerequisites not being fulfilled is the reason why NBT is being pivoted.

The difference between the items that I outlined, and your suggestion, is that mine do not have prerequisites. We do not need the scouts to add new xenoflora and xenofauna to away missions. We do not need the scouts to add equipment to build away-bases. We do not need the scouts to add more interesting and intricate away missions that require further exploration and break up the "Loot and scoot" idea. What's more. All of the items that I listed are small, self-contained ideas that build upon a whole. The small chunks you present. The only thing in this entire topic that is not a small chunk is your idea of shoving 5 new jobs onto the server with no supporting mechanics.

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

>:O All of these responsibilities are attached to existing jobs and mechanics already! This is another area where I am trying to find a good spot on a spectrum. Any job I think should be able to have engagement when you are using its main mechanics and specialization, or on extended when the main mechanic of that job is not enough. This is the same mindset that I went into pushing the merging of Virologist into chemistry, which allows the resulting Biochem role to have busywork (chemistry) even when there's no diseases to cure. Where Scouts land on that spectrum can be continued to be worked on, but right now I believe their set of responsibilities is respectable. It can be outlined that Scouts can choose to specialize in different fields of stuff, so they can choose different things to do?

First. You missed Paramedic from that chart. Y'know, the person who is specifically given a RIG to conduct asteroid search and rescue.

Second. You entirely missed the point I was making. The counting of roles was not a critique, it was an address used to set up the playing field for the actual point within that paragraph. Which you've thus failed to address. The point of that wasn't that "Oh noes they do so much," it was that "None of these skills are useful in away missions with our present mechanics." In general, your views are correct. And yet you failed to see where they run into actual issues as far as their application is concerned.

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

That's kind of a minmaxy way to look at it... There is a small culture of assistants going around helping different departments all over the place and they don't tend to get thrown out for being unnecessary.

Yes. Of assistants. The role that is meant to be used as a general purpose multitool to do whatever with. The job which has no responsibilities, no access, etcetera. And yes, it is a min-max-y way to look at it. Because points 6 - 8 are fucking bullshit and you know it.

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

With all this said, I think I can agree that there are some stuff we can do on our end:

• Remove a slot by removing the Scout Leader Role as something they always have.
  • The RD can choose to anoint a current Scout or Ranger as the Leader if they want that extra delegation/supervisement/expedition coordination. This brings us to 4 slots. 2 scouts, 1 cadet, 1 ranger. Tiny, smol, but with enough to stay a cohesive group. Having a Leader role is an objective we can put off far later into development, when they have the need for it.
    • We can also make it possible for crew to join as cadets if they qualify, allowing more hands on deck if necessary.
  • Continue to work out the sprites.

With these changes, instead of adding a functional sub-department with fuck all to do, you're proposing to add a non-functional sub-department with fuck all to do, one that's going to be a fucking direct and inevitable burden for the RD to address every round. 4 is not small, either. And the keeping of the cadet role is really dumb until their place has locked in via gameplay.

The only way I would even remotely consider adding this shit is if we do actual flip of what you just proposed. We add 1 or 2 explorers, so that there is an active push to keeping away-missions active. But again, without new content being added to away-missions, those roles will become worthless as well. While the playerbase can be pretty inventive with ideas even if you give them an empty space to fill, I was hoping that said effect would be invoked already. It was not. So gambling even harder on that is a tough ass sale.

[AmoryBlaine]

I've read very little since my last post here, but I keep thinking that these scouts main priority as a mechanic is to always provide enough personnel for expeditions, which currently are limited to requirements of personnel from each department. Rather than replace personnel who would go, they should be complementary to them, coming along or going there first.