Absolute State

[BurgerBB]

Yesterday I saw the following situation occur.

There was a unathi player. I don't even remember their name but their entire player gimmick was that they were excessively flirty. They flirted hard with my character, but I didn't complaint or ahelp it because it was so cartoonish and I couldn't take it seriously and they never said anything sexual. They also fucked off after I showed disinterest. Later in the shift they were flirting with another female unathi. The female unathi was actually pissed off and told them to straight up fuck off multiple times to the point where another female unathi smashed their face in near the holodeck.

I regret not ahelping it. Or maybe I don't. It's hard to tell what is roleplay and what is self-insert. It was some of the most neckbeard shit I've seen, it reminded me of 2012.

[Sytic]

I remember that scene, and believe personally excusing the behavior of cringeworthy sexual harassment by setting the standard that the Lore Writer has, is very dumb. People will abuse it not to create topical or well thought out but relatively comfy scenes to roleplay in, to instead exhibit toxic or otherwise undesirable traits.

This is a bad move. The way it has been set an example for has created a shitstorm that is somewhat unexcusable from all parties, but more importantly by setting this example from the Lore Writer's mouth themselves, they've allowed players to act in this capacity, stating "I'm just roleplaying my character as appropriate, look at (x), they've set the example already." And what are you supposed to do about that? They're the Lore Writer. They wrote it that way. Should people have seen the signs earlier? Yes. But not spotting red flags until after the fact shouldn't mean you're stuck with the shit. It's behavior that is already getting worse, and I believe it'll only increase in the amounts of Unathi "uber chad males" until it becomes far more of an OOC issue.

Tl;dr, don't use realistic standards to allow bad OOC behavior to crop up, IC reflects on OOC, OOC reflects on IC, if you don't want or expect people to be comfortable with the bullshit expect people to lash out at you OOCly and man the fuck up and deal with it if you have set the standard for that behavior. Everybody has to be an adult here, and personally I'd prefer avoiding the behavior itself rather than accepting it and making this community a lot more of a place where we focus on IRing and otherwise attempting our best to squash cliques from existence.

This can be easily solved by fixing this demographic issue by:

"While typically Unathi that are from (x locales) exhibit several behavioral clauses making them improper in the Tau Ceti workplace, all Unathi males from (x point in timeline) onward in non-Visitor roles aboard NT Stations must go through a behavioral training course."

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, Sytic said:

"I'm just roleplaying my character as appropriate, look at (x), they've set the example already." And what are you supposed to do about that? They're the Lore Writer. They wrote it that way.

Is this a call out post about me? I didn't play the character. This is just like when people said I'm the one that asked burger for the tummy rubs. It's not me!

Edited January 18, 2020 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The players in question all consented and posted that they enjoyed together later on in the unathi chat. Unless you are claiming on their behalf that they are lying, this call out post is really weird.

The Unathi from what I saw wrote a bunch of poetry and was being a Romeo. The resulting actions were IC and acknowledged as such by the players involved. The player of the Unathi even reached out to the two lady unathi players and specifically asked if it was OK after it all ended and they said yes they enjoyed it.

Please separate IC from OOC.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, Sytic said:

"While typically Unathi that are from (x locales) exhibit several behavioral clauses making them improper in the Tau Ceti workplace, all Unathi males from (x point in timeline) onward in non-Visitor roles aboard NT Stations must go through a behavioral training course."

This will not be a thing, but I did add a line about respecting the player even when you disrespect their  character.

[Sytic]

I'm stating that people will take it egregiously. People will go further with it than expected and take it too far. The example set is one set poorly, and I agree with Burger on this. I do not agree with how Burger made their statement. 

I'm glad that everyone managed to come away from the situation civilly, as we managed to come to a positive resolution in-round. However, regardless of the whims to separate IC from OOC, there is never going to be a complete and utter disconnect from the two. For example, I will post one you yourself posted:

This thread relates to Nazi imagery in the Necropolis Industries Contractors. The debacle there is that its disliked from the cringe (agreeably) movement that is the rise of Nazis and Fascism especially in terms of WW2 uniforms. This thread was a shitstorm because few people could see it as relevant towards the uniforms, which had more in common with the Soviet Union. Eventually, it devolved into what is worth taking reference to and blah blah blah.

Fact of the matter is, if IC was kept separate from OOC entirely, that thread wouldn't exist, you should raise your concerns about the similarities to an ancient Fascist movement ICly and we can all move on.

Now, back to the matter at hand: How does this relate to the current situation? Well, some individuals are offended at how things are being done ICly, in your case uniforms and in Burger's case Unathi stereotypical male behavior seen in certain planet demographics. One is a uniform of the Necropolis PMC, the other is the standard set by the Lore Writer for this particular demographic. Both are IC issues bleeding over into OOC ones because of how players see them. People will find that this upsets them, and to an extent rightly so. They have a right to feel that way and we should come to it maturely as a community- Whether that has been done, I don't personally think so, but that's no reason not to try.

The standard set is one that I believe will be taken egregiously. There's an old idiom, "Give an inch and they'll take a mile", which I believe is appropriate here. You've given a good flatbed for roleplaying an interesting conflict (as I said in my original post, here:

49 minutes ago, Sytic said:

I remember that scene, and believe personally excusing the behavior of cringeworthy sexual harassment by setting the standard that the Lore Writer has, is very dumb. People will abuse it not to create topical or well thought out but relatively comfy scenes to roleplay in, to instead exhibit toxic or otherwise undesirable traits.

I don't think that it's impossible to use this lore as a way to create interesting, topical, or well thought out scenes) but I do believe it is a quick, slippery slope. And one that has caused quite a massive amount of uproar and upset and while I originally believed it probably wouldn't become a problem, now I hesitate. At the moment, it is only these "cult of personality" type characters who get away with shenanigans (which tbh isn't that bad, but it does set an example) and people who genuinely roleplay well (the individual that round, as an example, which is a good example to set) but it can quickly turn sour and not acknowledging that this could become a problem really just is hardcore deflecting. Instead, let's take critique like this in mind, and denote it for the future. How can we approach the problem in a constructive and adult manner? How can we set examples that are constructive for the community?

On the note of setting an example as a Lore Writer, I'd like to take this in mind with you a few days ago:

31 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Is this a call out post about me? I didn't play the character.

As I stated, I had specifically mentioned setting an example of play, (not necessarily the individual in question which you don't play the character of this more relates to you broadly setting an example of a Conservative Unathi), which you do: 

On 05/01/2020 at 09:25, Marlon Phoenix said:

... Interacting with you as a unathi with the micro-aggressions and now that I'm trying to avoid interacting with you it's also bad. I cannot do both, because I cannot treat ... ... any different from other female characters when I play conservative unathi.

This is part of unathi lore. I play more conservative Unathi to remain an example.

As a community, we should understand that while setting an example of play is important, and playing to act as a "foil" to other characters, as well as complex or even despicable characters (Bayfugees know the name August Finster, and damn well should as an example of doing a downright evil character) that articulate more complex parts of the lore is important on our server. At the same time, setting examples that could potentially be harmful on the server is important.

Perhaps you should clarify further in regards to how to appropriately do such a thing, so that people will not look to characters so simply, taking the inch and pulling a mile out of it by making egregious errors with it, stretching it further and further until it becomes far more of an OOC issue than an IC one?

4 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

This will not be a thing, but I did add a line about respecting the player even when you disrespect their  character.

I do quite like this, but I'd also appreciate a bit more depth. Maybe some examples? Flesh it out, really dig deep. Do's and Don'ts might be a good way to approach it.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Sytic
clarification, spelling errors

[SleepyWolf]

I, the player of this character...

43 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Yesterday I saw the following situation occur.

There was a unathi player. I don't even remember their name but their entire player gimmick was that they were excessively flirty. They flirted hard with my character, but I didn't complaint or ahelp it because it was so cartoonish and I couldn't take it seriously and they never said anything sexual. They also fucked off after I showed disinterest. Later in the shift they were flirting with another female unathi. The female unathi was actually pissed off and told them to straight up fuck off multiple times to the point where another female unathi smashed their face in near the holodeck.

I regret not ahelping it. Or maybe I don't. It's hard to tell what is roleplay and what is self-insert. It was some of the most neckbeard shit I've seen, it reminded me of 2012.

...make sure to respect everyone who I interact with and try and make things INTERESTING to roleplay without being dangerously sexual in any way. i didnt expect to have to ask 'hey, are you ok with me acting this way' to you and your character because literally all my character did was compliment your characters eyes - the only thing he could really pick out to compliment because she wears cheap camo and no jewelry. i don't think that's something worth ahelping myself, someone complimenting someones eyes, so y'know. 

and if you were talking about the roleplay with the other characters, i made sure as and after it was happening that everyone was comfortable with it OOCly - my character is very poetic and a romantic. 

"I really do NOT want to be creepy about it, i want him to feel like someone that falls in love with everyone" (note: falling in love, not being a sexual deviant)

anyways i just dont want to be put into the realm of 'creepy person' and thats why im commenting here. oocly, i make sure everyone is ok with things, and icly my character is not being sexual or breaking the rules in any way. it sucks that you feel the roleplay might have had to be ahelped.

 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

There is this weird reactionary backlash growing against the patriarchy of Unathi society stemming from this thread. Between me being accused of being a sexual deviant and now sleepy being put in the same bus there is a serious problem here. I have to wonder at this point how much of this is genuine and how much of this is a conscious attempt at character assassination.

[Sytic]

Just now, SleepyWolf said:

-snip-

Given the in-round resolution, I had no problems with the character. I was there for it and backed them up when a few other people were doing dumb debates about charging pretty much everybody involved, iirc. (That was also handled.) It, however, did make me uncomfortable because with this in mind, it's definitely become clear that the example that has been set has actually set in, both positively and personally from the shitfest on the Forums that has since completely fucked a lot of things, negatively. I'd like to not dismiss Burger's claims and instead focus on accepting that even if some people may be too personally affected by certain situations, we should still accept that we could improve by even just attempting to dissuade doubt or bad vibes by allowing people to be comfortable without compromising lore integrity.

That's why I feel like this example that has been set so far by the Lore Writer is poor. It's too loose. Someone will be given an inch and take a mile, someone will run off with it and push the boundaries. We have quite a lot of players coming through here with a lot of traffic and already player complaints or staff complaints and the like made about this topic. Let's try to settle it down before it overblows, right? Let's give some boundaries for people to work with so we don't end up with OOC shitlords.

Again, no problems with you, Sleepy. Just raised an alarm in my head with the fact that it was happening, not how you were going about it, that an example was being set. Someone could use it for positive RP, and someone can use it for negative RP, and if players are becoming uncomfortable, instead of claiming "they're a shitlord, fuck the patriarchy, ree" and responding with "character assassination, ree", let's find where the critique is invalid, the critique is valid, and find solutions to problems. In this case, let's solve a problem before it appears: How can we make more concrete examples of characters representing an Unathi patriarchal society without making players uncomfortable OOCly, by explaining to players do's and don'ts about how to approach the topic, avoiding and being able to punish players who go too far? Let's stop creating imaginary lines for players to cross to hurt our feelings by actually creating the damn line and making it obvious when someone crosses it.

[BurgerBB]

21 minutes ago, SleepyWolf said:

I, the player of this character...

...make sure to respect everyone who I interact with and try and make things INTERESTING to roleplay without being dangerously sexual in any way. i didnt expect to have to ask 'hey, are you ok with me acting this way' to you and your character because literally all my character did was compliment your characters eyes - the only thing he could really pick out to compliment because she wears cheap camo and no jewelry. i don't think that's something worth ahelping myself, someone complimenting someones eyes, so y'know. 

and if you were talking about the roleplay with the other characters, i made sure as and after it was happening that everyone was comfortable with it OOCly - my character is very poetic and a romantic. 

"I really do NOT want to be creepy about it, i want him to feel like someone that falls in love with everyone" (note: falling in love, not being a sexual deviant)

anyways i just dont want to be put into the realm of 'creepy person' and thats why im commenting here. oocly, i make sure everyone is ok with things, and icly my character is not being sexual or breaking the rules in any way. it sucks that you feel the roleplay might have had to be ahelped.

 

As I said, I didn't mind the interaction between us because I wasn't creeped out by it. What I was creeped out by was the interaction between you or another character, but I wasn't sure what lead up to that so I didn't ahelp it. I actually felt sorry for you OOCly and ICly and I asked security to punish the blue unathi who escalated things poorly.

 

tl;dr I'm glad something positive came out of it and that you asked others about it. You are a model player in this regards.

Edited January 18, 2020 by BurgerBB

[Tomiix]

- I clearly don't know how to edit or delete posts properly. Sorry.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Tomiix

[Tomiix]

Hey so, an incident I was involved with got mentioned, so now I am here to comment as an old Unathi female player. I have a pretty generous tenure of playing a bully-magnet Unathi female and I have some things to say.

Firstly, now that Sleepy pointed out that she is the one who was playing the character, I am able to address the callout. Whereas, I feel like if you knew that it was sleepy who was playing the character, and you knew who sleepy is, you would know there was no malicious contempt oocly, "self-inserting" or otherwise. Baseless accusations on people's ooc motives, even implied, should be cut the hell out.

Secondly, I am going to have to disagree with the general tone that this forum board has taken on this matter. When you sign up to play a certain white-listed race, you sign up for the whole package. How others of your race views you because of how you are, based in the rules of that race. The reason why we have white-list applications is so that you understand these quirks going in. The good faith assumption going into role play with your character, is that people will treat you as you can expect to be consistent with the lore. IE, if you are a female, traditionalist unathi will likely disregard you no matter your station, while Ourean unathi or 'queendoms' (they werent around when i last was active, not sure how I feel about them yet still, but a current prudent one to mention) are more inclined to respect them. When making your character, you are quite literally signing up to play your role. How you interact is how you play your role in response.

I play a very strong female unathi, who is intelligent and has a good station, of which she never would of had on moghes. This causes males to be jealous, more harsh, and demeaning. My character responds to them in her own way. I had a long drawn out rp with a male security officer that got me dragged into an IR after they tried to intimidate me into doing a terrorist plot. Me and that player OOC really enjoyed that arc honestly, and there were no hard feelings. You need to be open to the idea that your character is going to go through some hardship, which is the struggle that the Unathi are dealing with. You dealing with the hardship is what makes the moments where you shine just the more brighter.

I have never been exceedingly harassed out of game sans one incident, that had nothing to do with an IC interaction, because our characters never talked. It wasn't even of a sexual nature, it was the typical 'hurr durr snowflake char' bullshit. I don't make it a habit of taking things from beyond it's face value if it isn't hurting me. Of course if people are taking the abuse into OOC, that is a problem. However we cannot just make conjecture about the intentions of other people based on how they behave in character, that isn't fair. I can understand the point of people masking ooc bullying as ic behavior, and I have seen that happen with a certain IR that targeted a certain female unathi that you also mentioned that still hasn't been addressed yet, but should. However this shouldn't be the base assumption, and can be handled ICly, as was suggested earlier. If you feel it's really bad, and the person is disproportionately targeting you to the point where they are no longer playing a realistic character who is at work to bother you, an ahelp should solve that. That character will likely get fired as it continues, and the player will learn their lesson. Or don't and get in trouble for meta-gaming.

I certainly feel like roleplay from Unathi males can be enhanced. Some I have met in game over my years have been really good at being demeaning, or disregarding females who think they are tough shit. The ones that are being deviants or straight up physical however, should be prepared for some dishonor. They should also be pressured by their peers more often when it comes to accosting females or assaulting them. Since doing so lowers your own status, however this doesn't happen as much. Maybe more could be done to enforce better traditionalist RP, and people should be held accountable for maintaining their whitelist. I would let the lore-team handle that however and not go on individual witch hunts. Point out the observed behaviors and let them talk to the player, discuss with them on how to be more lore friendly. It's a thin line between enforcing lore realism and making it difficult to have creative liberties and autonomy over your character. Too much restrictiveness can have the inverse effect of making everyone the same.

Sorry if at points I ramble, its late but I don't have time to do this later. Very much a now or never sort of post.

Edit: cause your reply just loaded.

19 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

As I said, I didn't mind the interaction between us because I wasn't creeped out by it. What I was creeped out by was the interaction between you or another character, but I wasn't sure what lead up to that so I didn't ahelp it. I actually felt sorry for you OOCly and ICly and I asked security to punish the blue unathi who escalated things poorly.

 

tl;dr I'm glad something positive came out of it and that you asked others about it. You are a model player in this regards.

Just an FYI, the escalation there was fine. He received ample warning that physicality was coming earlier in the shift.

[BurgerBB]

The post wasn't a callout post. It was me pointing out the very thin line between not creepy and creepy, which is why I said that I wasn't sure if it was an issue or not as I didn't ahelp and reserved judgement. In the situation, all parties knew eachother OOCly and the character they played, which is fine.

I've seen this lore argument brought up frequently, however I do not think it applies to sexual harassment. There is sexism, and there is sexual harrassment. As far as I know, there is nothing in the lore that says that unathi are sexually harassed and that it's perfectly acceptable for unathi males to do so.

As for the escalation thing, I meant ICly escalation. If there was OOCly escalation issues, I would've ahelped you, which I didn't because it was nothing.

Edited January 18, 2020 by BurgerBB

[Zundy]

So the take aways are:

- Please everyone be on the lookout for sexual harassment or "unwanted thirstyness" in game and on discord and if you see it, call it out.

- This is an attack on unathi lore or any lore at all as no lore states the above is acceptable.

Is that right?

 

[Tomiix]

1 minute ago, BurgerBB said:

The post wasn't a callout post. It was me pointing out the very thin line between not creepy and creepy, which is why I said that I wasn't sure if it was an issue or not as I didn't ahelp and reserved judgement. In the situation, all parties knew eachother OOCly and the character they played, which is fine.

I've seen this lore argument brought up frequently, however I do not think it applies to sexual harassment. There is sexism, and there is sexual harrassment. As far as I know, there is nothing in the lore that says that unathi are sexually harassed and that it's perfectly acceptable for unathi males to do so.

As for the escalation thing, I meant ICly escalation. If there was OOCly escalation issues, I would've ahelped you, which I didn't because it was nothing.

Okay so, if this isn't intended to be a callout post, I will do my best to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

1 hour ago, BurgerBB said:

I regret not ahelping it. Or maybe I don't. It's hard to tell what is roleplay and what is self-insert. It was some of the most neckbeard shit I've seen, it reminded me of 2012.

Like it or not, this is a callout. The indirect jabs at the 'lore writer' by sytic, and the logs showing how you talked to Jackboot are you being shown to be aggressive and indirectly calling people out. I don't know your whole situation, but it looks like you overblow a lot of things, and assume motives.

Either that, or can't properly communicate your feelings.

Like I said, sexual harassment should be accosted. Not courting a woman appropriately, is simply dishonorable. Unathi men acting excessively lewd towards women clearly don't understand the in lore repercussions of such actions. I.E., threatening his and his clans honor or reputation by harassing another clans woman. If she is set to be wed, or is already being courted, his physical saftey at the hands of another man when he clocks out. Men who don't RP with that in mind, aren't doing it right IMO. If they are one of those 'I don't give a shit ill do what I want types' their character will either need to go through a arc where they shape up, or eventually be fired and G-worded.

[Sytic]

Really, let's all just remember to set concrete examples for how we should play characters and ensure that when we set those examples for the Community, that players do not run the risk of potentially taking this in a poor or negative light and creating a disruptive atmosphere. Some players believe a line has been crossed, some haven't. So set the line. Make it more clear. Someone has said it's a problem, so even if you dislike them or doubt the validity of their claims, let's try our best to accommodate all individuals and help each other out so we can't set a poor example.

3 minutes ago, Tomiix said:

-snip-

... The indirect jabs at the 'lore writer' by sytic, and the logs ...

-snip-

Those weren't indirect, I just honestly have some personal misgivings which I won't go into.

But the examples set are poor. If a better example of a Conservative Unathi were set, maybe we wouldn't have a huge debacle, maybe Burger wouldn't have gone off and started a shitfest, maybe this could have been handled better. This is what worries me, a poor example that someone will use as an excuse for negative behavior on the server. I'd prefer to make it clearer rather than have to essentially publicly deface someone whenever someone sees this kind of thing of what people are worried about and inevitably uses it as an excuse to act like an Edgelord. Someone has made a problem visible, I can understand how they can see it, and even if I think they're overblowing it more than a little, I can understand what brought them to that conclusion, and maybe it's best to work as a team to fix any future problems before they come up in an egregious manner.

[Tomiix]

@Sytic Thank you for addressing your personal bias. 

You don't have to have an answer to this. It's not your responsibility to, but if you have specific issues with the wiki/way Unathi Traditional values are presented, do you have specific examples? How would you want them changed, in a way that the other Unathi players would find agreeable?

Not liking something is one thing. Asking for changes that not many others are asking for is another. Offering solutions that we can use and see if the others could agree to would be preferable.

[geeves]

An announcement has been made in the Unathi Discord that aims to help alleviate the issue.

 

If someone's truly being a nuisance, ahelp, or gather evidence and bring it to me. If it's a minor thing, LOOC, or contact them in DMs.

[Sytic]

1 minute ago, Tomiix said:

@Sytic Thank you for addressing your personal bias. 

You don't have to have an answer to this. It's not your responsibility to, but if you have specific issues with the wiki/way Unathi Traditional values are presented, do you have specific examples? How would you want them changed, in a way that the other Unathi players would find agreeable?

Not liking something is one thing. Asking for changes that not many others are asking for is another. Offering solutions that we can use and see if the others could agree to would be preferable.

Personal bias is in regards to an individual, not the situation. Nor does this affect how I view the situation in any capacity. Me disliking an example set is because it created a huge fucking issue, is not affected by my personal bias. It is an observation based on it causing a capital fucking issue with players somehow. You can take this in comparison to Sleepy Wolf, which as I've stated, didn't make me uncomfortable on its own, but rather the continued connotation that the example original set by the Lore Writer is getting traction, which has good and bad connotations given that we should be covering more mature topics, but that it's also caused a rather large issue on the forums and in the community.

Personally, I want a line obviously drawn in the sand. Let's just create, as I've said, a Dos and Don'ts list. What is more acceptable topics, while what is less acceptable topics to cover? For example, difference between Sexism and Sexual Harassment, that's a good one.

This issue, as I've stated, comes from people not knowing where the line is drawn. People have been getting very easily offended, and then you have people saying some wack stuff in response, and generally a lot of hostility. How about we talk about potential pitfalls that people can fall into, where it crosses a line that might be obvious to some, but less obvious to others?

[BurgerBB]

28 minutes ago, Tomiix said:

Okay so, if this isn't intended to be a callout post, I will do my best to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Like it or not, this is a callout. The indirect jabs at the 'lore writer' by sytic, and the logs showing how you talked to Jackboot are you being shown to be aggressive and indirectly calling people out. I don't know your whole situation, but it looks like you overblow a lot of things, and assume motives.

Either that, or can't properly communicate your feelings.

Like I said, sexual harassment should be accosted. Not courting a woman appropriately, is simply dishonorable. Unathi men acting excessively lewd towards women clearly don't understand the in lore repercussions of such actions. I.E., threatening his and his clans honor or reputation by harassing another clans woman. If she is set to be wed, or is already being courted, his physical saftey at the hands of another man when he clocks out. Men who don't RP with that in mind, aren't doing it right IMO. If they are one of those 'I don't give a shit ill do what I want types' their character will either need to go through a arc where they shape up, or eventually be fired and G-worded.

I brought up Jackboot because he brought himself up. If you look at the thread closely, we was the one who pulled out the logs. I legitimately don't give a shit who plays who and don't take things personally because that always derives from the point of everything.

 

Like I'm going to be an asshole here and describe the problem accurately.

There is a lore race that panders to furries, inherently and unintentionally, at first glance. Upon further inspection it contains lore that places females below males, and goes as far as to to compare them to property and highlight some of the weird things that go on, such as wife competitions. Despite the lore not really mentioning this, the usually make players of this race focus heavily on "the good ol' days" of tribalism, masculinity, and proving your manhood. It's an attitude where the the ideal female is a wife who serves her husband and where the husband does manly things like hunt, boast, and fight other men to prove their worth.

There exists some members of the community that take this too far.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by BurgerBB

[Tomiix]

1 minute ago, Sytic said:

Personal bias is in regards to an individual, not the situation. Nor does this affect how I view the situation in any capacity. Me disliking an example set is because it created a huge fucking issue, is not affected by my personal bias. It is an observation based on it causing a capital fucking issue with players somehow. You can take this in comparison to Sleepy Wolf, which as I've stated, didn't make me uncomfortable on its own, but rather the continued connotation that the example original set by the Lore Writer is getting traction, which has good and bad connotations given that we should be covering more mature topics, but that it's also caused a rather large issue on the forums and in the community.

Personally, I want a line obviously drawn in the sand. Let's just create, as I've said, a Dos and Don'ts list. What is more acceptable topics, while what is less acceptable topics to cover? For example, difference between Sexism and Sexual Harassment, that's a good one.

This issue, as I've stated, comes from people not knowing where the line is drawn. People have been getting very easily offended, and then you have people saying some wack stuff in response, and generally a lot of hostility. How about we talk about potential pitfalls that people can fall into, where it crosses a line that might be obvious to some, but less obvious to others?

I was referring to 

18 minutes ago, Sytic said:

-snip-

Those weren't indirect, I just honestly have some personal misgivings which I won't go into.

-snip-

AKA, feelings you have about Marlon, the individual.

So just so I understand you correctly, your complaint isn't with what is written, but what isn't written, which is a clear set of things that guys could do to women that are too far?

If so, this snippet from the wiki.
"Women still do hold power in some ways. They are responsible for raising the children and can hold influence over their husbands. When married, their former clan can lose a lot of face or honor if she's mistreated or divorced."

Could likely be expanded, and fulfill this need. I can reactivate my old lore deputy mode and type out something that can be submitted for approval.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I think that a concrete list of what is "acceptable sexism" would be really problematic. I did think about it and I talked to people within and without the aurora community and then I took a nap on it. The consensus is that it would be cringy or problematic.

For six years things have been going well with it.

I am highly critical and suspicious of this new narrative you are creating wherein I was the example being set in regards to sexism. I am not the catalyst for a sudden surge in misogyny.

I have disagreed with Burgers character assassination in regards to labeling me a sexual deviant. His call out post has been discredited by both the alleged perpetrator and the alleged victims all saying it was fine. This is all, in essence, character assassination on Burger's part and everyone else being caught up in it for malicious or genuine but misguided ends.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Please refer to me by my actual name. I have asked you several times, Burger. My name is visible in every post I make and has been for about a year.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, BurgerBB said:

There is a lore race that panders to furries, inherently and unintentionally, at first glance. Upon further inspection it contains lore that places females below males, and goes as far as to to compare them to property and highlight some of the weird things that go on, such as wife competitions. Despite the lore not really mentioning this, the usually make players of this race focus heavily on "the good ol' days" of tribalism, masculinity, and proving your manhood. It's an attitude where the the ideal female is a wife who serves her husband and where the husband does manly things like hunt, boast, and fight other men to prove their worth.

It's really hard to not fall into liberal identity politics about this. Me just saying I'm a leftist engaged in feminist activism won't really address these issues. So I will ask,

At what point, anywhere, is the patriarchy of Unathi society unironically portrayed within the lore as a positive endeavor we should strive towards??? I do nothing but subvert these elements whenever they appear. There are so many women in unathi society that are shown to be pushing back against the systems of oppression within their own culture and methods. They have constant agency in their own liberation (within the context of remaining within the feudal structure - unathi women want to be on the same level as men within the same existing hierarchy, to be fair. It's very 2nd wave feminist.)

You cannot in good faith take a full reading of women within unathi lore and say it's conservative fan fiction.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Marlon Phoenix

[Tomiix]

14 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

I brought up Jackboot because he brought himself up. If you look at the thread closely, we was the one who pulled out the logs. I legitimately don't give a shit who plays who and don't take things personally because that always derives from the point of everything.

 

Like I'm going to be an asshole here and describe the problem accurately.

There is a lore race that panders to furries, inherently and unintentionally, at first glance. Upon further inspection it contains lore that places females below males, and goes as far as to to compare them to property and highlight some of the weird things that go on, such as wife competitions. Despite the lore not really mentioning this, the usually make players of this race focus heavily on "the good ol' days" of tribalism, masculinity, and proving your manhood. It's an attitude where the the ideal female is a wife who serves her husband and where the husband does manly things like hunt, boast, and fight other men to prove their worth.

There exists some members of the community that take this too far.

 

 

This reads to me like you don't pay attention to the rest of Unathi lore, which is disappointing because a good amount of work goes into it.

People are encourage to subvert this on station because they aren't ON moghes. People need to play into it because we need antagonists, people to play the straight edge traditional. People who play imperfect characters with flaws. Flawed ideals and flawed mentalities included.

The Unathi are primitives xenos who nuked themselves. Having them be MORE like humans just panders to the furries more. Most furries are liberal, and would see it as a invite. (Which I don't even see why is a point you made, but since you did, there is the counter.) 

A good amount of unathi lore and the stories shows the absurdity of the male focused environment. The sub-cultures that defy it and are totally functional show the ridiculousness of it. The unathi on station prove it to not necessarily be a justifiable cultural norm.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Tomiix