Staff complaint - SonicGotNuked

[TheDilShawn]

BYOND Key: TheDilShawn

Staff BYOND Key: SonicGotNuked

Game ID: b6W-cqQH

Reason for complaint: I was permanently banned from playing antag even though this is my third time playing as antag. I've spoken with the staff member himself over discord to talk about it further, after some talking we both agreed that it is necessary to get logs from the game to see if what if this permaban is fair because in my opinion and the opinion of another staff member that I've spoken to (although with what I've told him from what I remember and not what he saw or heard from others) aswell as the other antag post round saying I did good.

The staff in-game had told me that I had to try and make a deal with medical inside when they were trying to drag away the people that I was currently murdering which I don't think they should've tried to get between someone throwing acid gas and the murder victims.

 

Evidence/logs/etc: None but I would like to explain with my own words what I was planning and what went on in the round.

I got traitor randomly through the start of the round so I wanted to do a dionae gimmic in which I'd use my nymph with integrated circuit headwear carry a smoke generator and hypo injector with sopoforic. I comunicated to a crew to announce that my nymph would do a show at the bar.

Around at the 1 hour mark I went to do the show but nobody showed up because the crew was unresting about the monsters so they could not attend. I went to many departments to see if I could do that there instead and eventually found myself in the engineering department after being pushed away rudely by security.

I tried convincing the engineers around the table to allow me to do a show. They refused but I kept trying, eventually one started chasing me around the table to throw me out while I denied leaving. Escalating to the point where I figured I had to use the smoke generator with sopoforic to carry out my plan. Unfortunately after doing so, I could not get away into a vent and the nymph got rushed and punched by an engineer but others have joined it. Icly the gestalt does not know what happened to the nymph only that it died in engineering because the way the nymphs detach from the collective have their rootsong frequency to the same as their gestalt.

1 hour and 30 minutes into the round, the other antag ling was bothered that he wasn't being able to know how to hunt like the staff were advising him to hunt so to relieve his stress I decided to get the round some antag action so people wouldn't boo the stealth antags. Although the gestalt originally did not know what happened to it. Engineering said that they killed the nymph for gassing them with sopoforic by mob justice, implying that it was several. I picked up some EMP grenades from the traitor menu because of the mostly IPC security so they wouldn't stop my revenge plan. My gestalt went to engineering and only saw the blood of the nymph left, saw one engineer standing like they weren't gassed so they did not touch them because it is possible they were not present since they were not knocked out. And saw another engineer sleeping on the floor and dragged him to medical. Where they found two others.

They gave the engineer to medics asking them to get them up because they have to speak to him and gave them some time to get back into consciousness.

At one point while treating that one a doctor said something like "oh you're already awake" and I saw another engineer on his legs because he was not buckled down. I then proceeded to give him the message that I must speak to him, they should not have killed our jester and that this would be our social call and threw a non-explosive poly acid plant at them, which then they threw back at me and I threw a gassy one back at the engineer specificly which then prompted him to imediatelly rush at me to fight and I threw more plants both acid and radium at them and they did not want to slow down or stop fighting until they went down. The medical staff decided not to run away from the hazardous gassy and murderous place and instead want to try and play hero running towards the people I'm murdering with GAS and only indirectly got gassed themselves by acid. I did not remember targetting the medical staff with acid however I did throw sopoforic gas at them to slow them down from taking the people that I'm murdering for revenge of my nymph, which were back unconscious or still unconscious due to more sopoforic being thrown around.

Eventually I had started throwing acid gas plants and radioactive gas plants at anyone trying to stop me due to not having enough sopoforic ones but I still do not recall throwing it at medical staff unless there was a need to do it.

I've also used some temporally unstable mushrooms to get out of medical after security showed up and gave a visit to security and threw a sopoforic one at the detective at the desk and an EMP on the HoS shooting me, which also EMP'd the sec lobby.

Then I returned to medical and tried to take an ID from a medical staff but a friend gardener was trying to stop me so I tried not to harm him, unsure what I did to them to get them to not grab me but never wanted to harm him but I did see Taika on the surgery table post round.

For a few moments I actually tried to manage talking in to the admin and fighting which probably took time from me actually further RPing about having my revenge for the nymph. Security was back at fighting me and I was also throwing plants at them, eventually I downed a cadet and took his weapon and shot the other officer, then I was running out of plants and used the hatchet instead to 2v1 security and eventually I got powered through, got arrested and was executed by the elevator.

This was treated as a heavy gank even though they escalated to the point of killing a nymph (which is important to a gestalt ICly) and I had legitimate reasons to get into a murderous revenge specifically on the engineers which started firstly by the engineer rushing to fight a dangerous dionae that just blasted acid on them instead of trying to run away then spread to the crew trying to protect them, first starting with sopoforic and then once that ran low, acid grenade and radium grenades which left the entire medbay painted in yellow and green.

I make it an important point that I only focused lethal plants on engineers and security afterwards. If the medical staff was hit by any of it it would it was most likely an accident from them ignoring the fact that I'm murdering people with gas and are nonetheless just rushing the people I'm killing to drag them. I specifically remember thinking "Those are medics not engineers use the sopoforic not the acid.".

 

Additional remarks: I know I have a past of powergaming, back when I didn't know what I could and could not do, should've probably done staff complaints in the past specially the last one too but I was always too scared of doing so since it sounds bad to just complain about staff even though I have nothing against the staff punishing me only that I could not understand exactly what I did wrong since what they have told me I'm doing does not make sense with what I'm actually doing.

I've taken alot of steps to not risk powergaming, and the last one that I had about powergaming was back when I was still understanding Dionae where I regenerated any damage that they made within 1 second and the wiki said they felt no damage (also this is before that was changed), and was not counted as a strike. Alot of people like my RP as a dionae specially if it's my nymph. I don't actually want to disregard rules, everytime that I got warned about it, more and more times I don't even know that I'm breaking them even if I did read the rules alot of the times what staff tell me is not actually written down and usually it's an unwritten rule part of something written.

The one with the vampire I wish I did a complain but only recently after talking to staff did I even work up the courage through the stress to do this one and I fear that I cannot find the game ID for the vampire one since it has been a few weeks.

Sorry for the inconvenience, I just wish I could understand the rules like you all do but when asking for the opinion of a staff about it I just get further confused when they agree with what I say, then again it is what I say and that can change from reality since it's based on what I remember doing, for example I cannot remember specifically alot of parts during fights, sometimes being like a blur and am prone to misremembering some parts as all people are prone to. Therefore logs are required on this one.

Thank you for reading.

-TheDilShawn

[sonicgotnuked]

58 minutes ago, TheDilShawn said:

I've spoken with the staff member himself over discord to talk about it further, after some talking we both agreed that it is necessary to get logs from the game to see if what if this permaban is fair because in my opinion and the opinion of another staff member that I've spoken to (although with what I've told him from what I remember and not what he saw or heard from others) aswell as the other antag post round saying I did good.

Sorry I was unclear due to my massive headache at the time. I said to make a staff complaint if you disagree. It'll give an opportunity to relook over my own decision and a deeper look. But I still am in standing with what I decided.

 

This was an antagonist ban due to the severity of the situation and rampant powergaming that involved using the xenobotany mechanics to mass murder people with super healing. I decided at the end a permanent antagonistic ban would provide you the necessary point. This really was not enjoyable for anyone involved in the situation, for context, due to some people being sedated for over 20 minutes while medical got hit with the cross fire.

 

1) There was really no clear cut point you were trying to make to all the engineers. From what I gathered, you sedated them, and immediately tried to murder them in medical with a few more lines of dialog towards one person. Some engineers were left sedated for over 20 minutes due to the amount of soporific flying around medical.

 

58 minutes ago, TheDilShawn said:

The staff in-game had told me that I had to try and make a deal with medical inside when they were trying to drag away the people that I was currently murdering which I don't think they should've tried to get between someone throwing acid gas and the murder victims.

2) It is natural for doctors to protect their patients by bringing them to safety. You made zero demands for medical to not treat these people. They really were not involved in any role play, and from what I gathered from the CMO, you ran in throwing plants without really any regard to collateral damage it may of caused. This is pretty much the same as mercenaries marching into medical and wordlessly shooting doctors because they're treating security and trying to keep their patients alive.

 

3) You abused the Diona mechanics to turn yourself into an unkillable Deity with Radium and explosive soporific plants. You knew full well that doing this would basically make you extremely powerful. Plus people were sedated for mass amounts of time. I decided it was a player issue due to the extensive pattern of behavior, but I'll let others look over this and decide if they agree with me or disagree and make this a mechanical issue. 

 

Otherwise, I'll let the logs be pulled up and this handled. 

 

[TheDilShawn]

Hello again due to the newer reply I would like to make a few points.

While the roleplay at medical with the engineers was minimal, there was extensive roleplay in their department to give out the escalation to kill them for revenge.  The CMO would not know of this since he was not present. IC The Gestalt was pretty pissed, even warning the RD that they were going to pay for killing the nymph through science radio which the AI could also see.

As for the severity of the engineers and others possibly sedated in medical, I would like to point out that it was near the round end that these things happened over the course of the last 30 minutes into the round.

I still do not believe it is natural for doctors to actively ignore the acid and radioactive gas to just go protect their patients and I don't really have enough antag experience to know that I should stop murdering someone because medical ignores it, hence I did my best to slow them down with sopoforic but it is might be true that they have got collateralled from acid but it was not what I planned or tried to do and cannot personally remember hitting medical with acid.

As for me abusing diona mechanics to turn myself into an unkillable deity, it is actually not the case, demonstrated by the IPC that was got me at the end, all that people needed to do is destroy light sources, not fight me in well lit areas, security had plenty of equipment to try and take me down, people ignore this and just try to straight up try and fight me melee in the light, what actually made me so strong were my plants, if I was human I could've just grown other plants to achieve the same thing with a biohazard suit and internals, which the difference would be the possibility that after a long fight I'd have some fractures. As a xenobotanist I have a easy source of radium and I almost always have it mostly to offset the speed penalty that dionae have, and that's the IC reason I always get them, since I don't really go around into large battles as non-antag. I did use the radium bottle to heal myself however but I would not actually understand how that could be abuse of a mechanic.

I want to make it clear on that last part, I seriously cannot understand that it is some sort of abuse to use your species basic mechanics. Even while reading the rules to try and find some hole, it is not clear enough for me to think I cannot use radium, which is of easy access to me, to irradiate myself and get the bonuses from being irradiated. Like as if a human chemist could not give himself some power boosting drugs to sustain and enhance himself. There just isn't a clear line between *use* and *abuse*. It's like "You get this new species but don't use it's mechanics in fights because that is abuse of the species" or " You're a xenobotanist and don't have access to weapons but don't fight with your plants that could be used as weapons because that is abuse", things that would make sense to be used because of how available and *connected* they are to a character, are somehow are not allowed. Specially when people choose to just brute force through the mechanics that you're using without thought to try and analyze the situation and adjusting their plan. It's like in chess if I put a pawn infront of you but if you took it it's checkmate but you ignore that and always take the pawn and tell me I'm at fault. And I cannot understand that even while reading the rules.

[Arrow768]

8 hours ago, sonicgotnuked said:

You abused the Diona mechanics to turn yourself into an unkillable Deity with Radium and explosive soporific plants. You knew full well that doing this would basically make you extremely powerful.

Regarding the Radium and the Diona:

Given that the mechanic of "radium heals 20 points of damage per unit processed" was requested by a former diona lore writer and intentionally added, I would not consider the usage of that mechanic as "Bug Using" / "Abuse of Mechanics", as the mechanic has not been used outside of its intended function. (However, this mechanic is being removed as a direct consequence of this incident.)

9 hours ago, TheDilShawn said:

The one with the vampire I wish I did a complain but only recently after talking to staff did I even work up the courage through the stress to do this one and I fear that I cannot find the game ID for the vampire one since it has been a few weeks.

If you got warned for it, it is possible to pull the logs, as the date/time is saved with each warning. 

[sonicgotnuked]

4 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

Given that the mechanic of "radium heals 20 points of damage per unit processed" was requested by a former diona lore writer and intentionally added, I would not consider the usage of that mechanic as "Bug Using" / "Abuse of Mechanics", as the mechanic has not been used outside of its intended function. (However, this mechanic is being removed as a direct consequence of this incident.)

Then I will remove the powergaming of Diona mechanics in general from your ban. I will still hold by the fact of gank due to the disregard and lack of demands towards medical. Telling the Research Director indirectly that engineering will pay is very vague will not be interpreted by anyone that the medical staff are to immediately stop treating them. There is still a point of powergaming with the soporific since you didn't have the escalation to kill all of the engineers in medical. Some where asleep and continued to be asleep. The one you told he'd pay face to face? Sure. The couple others were in comas basically and got the same hatchet treatment. People were sedated for over 30 minutes.

 

The doctors were not ignoring you. There was no demands given to them, hence, they ran, with their patients. You can't really expect them to understand that you're not attacking medical as a whole when you're tossing AOE weapons at individuals throughout the entirety of medical.

 

The round time doesn't matter in this situation due to the lack of escalation.

 

That said, the engineers can be further discussed if there was enough escalation to kill them. Medical on the other hand did not have the proper escalation due to the lack of demands for doctors to not treat them. You basically ran in throwing plants and punished them when they reacted by running. They never had clear demands.

 

As for the warning, it was applied 2020-04-03 10:03:45 by @Shadow7889

[Shadow7889]

That warning I posted was due to an incident regarding rushing a bar fight as a diona when ISD were on the scene and attempting to de-escalate/detain the person in question.  

[Garnascus]

I will look into this. I will just begin by gathering some information from what i see here in the thread. 

On 01/05/2020 at 21:24, TheDilShawn said:

The staff in-game had told me that I had to try and make a deal with medical inside when they were trying to drag away the people that I was currently murdering

Can you elaborate on this? Did someone explicitly you to do this via an administrator PM or was this suggested in AOOC? 

On 01/05/2020 at 22:19, sonicgotnuked said:

for context, due to some people being sedated for over 20 minutes while medical got hit with the cross fire.

I will go down a list on what the events here appear to be.

1. Twigman supreme @TheDilShawn creates an unholy array of gas plants and various chemical weapons to make papa nurgle green with envy. 

2. Tries to put on a show for the crew but nobody is interested. Eventually forces it on engineering in the guise of one of his nymphs. They beat his little twig to death after being gassed.

3. Big twig johnson @TheDilShawn of course understands that he does not know what his nymph did in engineering but engineering is of course only too willing to brag about their escapades over the radio that he is able to piece it together. If a tree falls in the forest engineering will claim they chopped it down.

4. This understandably rustles the branches of our leafy antagonist and he sets out on a quest for revenge. He finds most of engineering still reeling from his nymph's gas-capades. He follows them to medical in an attempt to give them a leaf of his mind when they recover. Here is a portion of OP's testimony

Quote

I threw a gassy one back at the engineer specificly which then prompted him to imediatelly rush at me to fight and I threw more plants both acid and radium at them and they did not want to slow down or stop fighting until they went down. The medical staff decided not to run away from the hazardous gassy and murderous place and instead want to try and play hero running towards the people I'm murdering with GAS and only indirectly got gassed themselves by acid

So, i assume some words are said over this and that and this escalates to a friendly game of catch except they where playing catch with deadly gas plants and losing this particular game means dying a horrible death. I have no doubt that medical was "in the area" and certainly suffered some form of collateral damage. However i have to wonder if such collateral is really unacceptable as OP seemed to only try to throw sopor plants at medical and that claim appears to be backed up by sonic.

On 01/05/2020 at 22:19, sonicgotnuked said:

for context, due to some people being sedated for over 20 minutes while medical got hit with the cross fire.

Right, crossfire. Gas as we all know it spread. I am not sure whether medical was all immediately trying to flee OR if they really did as OP says try to intervene and "play hero". My experience in being staff for this server for a number of years now leads my gut to feel for the latter.

On 02/05/2020 at 11:35, sonicgotnuked said:

Then I will remove the powergaming of Diona mechanics in general from your ban. I will still hold by the fact of gank due to the disregard and lack of demands towards medical.

I do not know if that is necessarily his responsibility. Surely all of us would punish someone who randomly goes to medical and starts gassing people there for absolutely no reason. He would be responsible for every person he kills. What i see here is the diona in question went to medical for a specific reason. That reason was to fuck up those engineer's who had killed his nymph. That really should be where the discussion. If some people get unintentionally caught in the crossfire or if he was gunning down and chasing after people who had absolutely nothing to do with it i could understand. It seems that was not the case here. 

 

[BearSchwanz]

There were no words exchanged with the engineers in medical or after sedation because they were all asleep. As the CMO of the round, from what i know there was no words to medical either.

[sonicgotnuked]

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

do not know if that is necessarily his responsibility. Surely all of us would punish someone who randomly goes to medical and starts gassing people there for absolutely no reason. He would be responsible for every person he kills. What i see here is the diona in question went to medical for a specific reason. That reason was to fuck up those engineer's who had killed his nymph. That really should be where the discussion. If some people get unintentionally caught in the crossfire or if he was gunning down and chasing after people who had absolutely nothing to do with it i could understand. It seems that was not the case here. 

He was intentionally targeting doctors as well. 

 

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Right, crossfire. Gas as we all know it spread. I am not sure whether medical was all immediately trying to flee OR if they really did as OP says try to intervene and "play hero". My experience in being staff for this server for a number of years now leads my gut to feel for the latter.

One person I knew of tried to intervene and promptly got gassed. This is something I looked at in the decision. The other doctors were trying to flee from the killer tree throwing plants at everyone.

 

[TheDilShawn]

11 minutes ago, BearSchwanz said:

There were no words exchanged with the engineers in medical or after sedation because they were all asleep. As the CMO of the round, from what i know there was no words to medical either.

There was an engineer standing up (north eastern part of the room) who I talked to and threw my non-gas plant back at me and then proceeded to try and fight me after I threw gas at him and the person that was treating the engineer I dragged in said "Oh you're awake" so I assumed he was talking about the one I dragged in, didn't exactly check that for myself however so probably misunderstood it?

Can confirm however I did not talk to medical appart from telling them to get the person I dragged in awake because we needed to talk. 

As for what Sonic said, I can confirm did target the medical staff with sopoforic gas so that they would not succeed in their rescue attempt of people Im murdering, do not recall throwing lethal gas on them purposefully. Hopefully Im not misremembering the events. 

And for the ingame staff saying I had to make a deal with medical, I meant after the incident while talking to Sonic I was told that I had to try and make some sort of deal with medical to not treat/save the people Im going to kill/killing which is an opinion stated again within this post by sonic, sorry if you understood it as staff telling me what to do ingame, hopefully this cleared some stuff up. 

As for the medical again, I would like to point out that while they did retreat, I remember some coming back to try and drag people regardless of the circumstances, aswell as the CMO being present with a paramedic voidsuit which I think does nulify my plant's gas and in my opinion was fair play from him. 

While I do not wish to make it an excuse I want to provide the context that Im vastly unexperienced in antag roles and the very few times I have been antag (which I think were 3 within more than half a year of playing the server) Ive always got criticized for being a stealth antag by the server because I would not know what to do. 

[sonicgotnuked]

Thinking about it, I'll be willing to reduce the ban to a warning. Since Dil does have a point regarding being an antag and Arrow has clarified a few things. 

 

The changes to Dionaea shall suffice as a result of this.

[Garnascus]

@TheDilShawn does that all sound good?

[TheDilShawn]

Hello again.

While I do accept those terms, I would like some confirmation over the contents of the warning like not enough escalation on the engineers to kill them for example, since it seems that there are mixed opinions over it from different staff. No doubt if I was deemed to have escalation to kill them, it would also affect the ganking part too.

However I want to ask if I can still be unbanned from antag as you go confirm what was stated above as I really haven't played on the server since I made this post because of stress, I would connect, look at the BANNED role list and just disconnect.

Edited May 8, 2020 by TheDilShawn
Grammar

[Garnascus]

Yeah sure

@sonicgotnuked What exactly is the warning about then? I have to wonder what the point is if we are already going from a perma ban to.... a warning. Feels more like the entire situation is not even noteworthy. 

[sonicgotnuked]

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

@sonicgotnuked What exactly is the warning about then? I have to wonder what the point is if we are already going from a perma ban to.... a warning. Feels more like the entire situation is not even noteworthy. 

The warning is on the gank behavior of medical. But if you disagree, I will just remove it entirely.

[Garnascus]

I dont know what exactly happened in medical. All i can say is throwing sleep gas plants was prooooobably ok. Dont really know to what extend the acid gas plants affected things. @BearSchwanz Apparently you where the CMO that round. Do you happen to know?

[BearSchwanz]

In terms of in a whole, it was a mass of the fruits with radiation and acid and thiiings thrown at everyone and everything and security was unable to do anything due to constant radium injections, when I was operating on one of the engineers they busted out the OR window and attacked patient and I with a hatchet whilst security was still chasing them.

[TheDilShawn]

I teleported randomly with the fruit I had into the OR window. Also, the person operating (you) grabbed a circular saw and wanted to attack me with it, My intentions was to stop the engineers from living, hence I hacked the engineer up in the OR.

I still had plenty of radium left at the end, they got me because of low light because the IPC sec was smart enough to break lights (would you look at that) Security could've still just got a flash and flashed me instead of harm batoning me by the way since that literally knocks Dionae down long enough.

[Garnascus]

Forgot to lock and archive this. Ban was lifted a while ago.