Nerf Crossbow

[LordFowl]

This is quite a simple request.

The crossbow needs to be nerfed. It encourages behaviour that is completely contradictory to rules against ramboing. I will agree that as a weapon it is highly amusing, but its availability is its main downside. An example, if you please:

Nukey the Nuke Team declares their presence in some fashion (usually bombs). The station agonizes. Security frantically begins handing out weapons. Medical braces for the worst; casualties galore. Science usually crowds into the bar. Engineering solemnly goes to work repairing the bomb damage. And what of cargo, my dear friends? What indeed. They build crossbows, and arm a more potent and powerful militia than Science purportedly can (While I admit that Lawgivers are quite potent, the likelihood of seeing them in a nuke round is quite slim) I'd even say their militia is more potent than security's. A single man with a crossbow can wipe out an entire team of nuke operatives (And I've seen both the robust and unrobust fall to the dreadful weapon that is the crossbow).

Why is the crossbow so powerful, though?

1: Its projectile is /extremely/ lethal. Even if the target is not standing conveniently by a wall for a free psuedo stun, getting hit by it ensures death by internal bleeding, in most cases.

2: Its ammunition is /extremely/ common. It fires metal rods. That's it.

3: The weapon itself is pretty common. It can be crafted from cargo technicians.

Remove one of these three points, and the weapon becomes bearable. Personally, I'd like to see point 3 removed.

I don't mean to be salty, but I'm getting a bit tired of Cargonia ramboing the antagonist for the bazilionth time with their mighty crossbow.

[canon35]

1. The crossbow is near useless on someone who's armoured and not next to a wall.

2. Yes, ammo is common.

3.The weapon's not that common. It takes someone with the knowledge, materials, and time to make it. Wood's easy enough to come by, and plastic is almost only able to be made by mining.

And, with the concerns, you could also argue that the LAWP is in need of a nerf. The shot does 60 burn, never misses, charges, and is cargo orderable.

[Susan]

Plastic is now a more common material due to the mining overhaul. Previously, plastic could only be obtained through botany. It's required in the construction of crossbows.

Maybe change the plastic requirement to a rarer metal?

[LordFowl]

Considering Syndicate operatives are generally armoured, and occassionally not near walls, yet suffer massive casualties from crossbows when they are employed, I'd say your first point could use some looking into.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

As Sue said, plastic is pretty common due to the mining overhaul.

And, due to OTHER events in the round, I will remain silent on the case of the LWAP. dirty campers

[Tenenza]

Perhaps we could just throw in an extra step to making a crossbow that requires more crossdepartment interaction like before the update, so we can keep plastic common. Maybe add a manipulator so science needs to be contacted, or something like that.

[Guest]

You know, I could say, "well at least they aren't vox spike-throwers", except in that, well. they kind of are.

they're ridiculously effective and very lethal, it's not something that should be readily available in a civilian department's hands. can't tell you how many times cargo has made crossbows and how badly i wanted to smack them

[Blue]

Still need to actually use it to fight someone before it gets nerfed.

But yeah, it's pretty damn powerful. I'd suggest removing the whole pin-to-the-wall feature as I don't know how that would be possible without impaling them and basically killing them on the spot...

[mrimatool]

It does impale them.. And it wouldn't "kill them on the spot" they'd die from blood loss. which they do.

[Guest]

you can't exactly escape from being impaled without ripping the metal rod out of you (which does a lot of brute, fyi, if it's not being treated IMMEDIATELY after or they were sedated prior to the removal), and/or being pulled out of the surface by a third party

you're dead if you get hit by a crossbow projectile.

[Skull132]

I think this might be more of a case of, maybe consider taking action against the user, as opposed to the weapon? Not everyone should have knowledge of how to make a giant ass crossbow. And even less people should have the willingness to charge into combat with it.

[mrimatool]

I agree if Cargo starts arming themselves then they should be dealt with. The weapon is strong yes, but weapons NEED to be deadly to discourage Mr Mary Sue Security Cadet from shrugging them off and beating everyone up with his disarm intent and grab skills.

And if people are silly enough to rip a metal rod from someone's body without taking precautions then isn't that their fault and not the weapon's?

[duck]

Cargo shouldn't be crossbowing people. I really don't like the notion of making crossbows another you-need-science tool like everything else in the game, and I think moving them to be cargo-available is okay. But maybe these cargo people should not be shooting everyone with them.

Also, the claim that an entire nuke team can get killed by one guy with a crossbow is, while unfortunately believable, something for the nuke team to be ashamed of instead of something to nerf the weapon for. You are, in fact, just as dead if you get hit by an SMG burst. They actually do the same damage: 75, and shrapnel and internal bleeding and maybe decapitations are pretty deadly. Thrown weapons work off I think a complete deflection system where the game runs a melee hit check and if it works, you take no damage. But it may have changed. If it hasn't, nuke op armor has 60% protection, which is a 60% chance you take 0 damage. again, unless it's changed.

Crossbows have a long windup time for more or less the same payoff as the SMG. The SMG can spit bullets out whenever it wants, and it is better at dealing with armor. The crossbow is extremely deadly, yes. If you get hit by a rod, you are going to die. yes. But it is bad against groups, and bad against people you aren't trying to kill, and only reaches the deadliness of an smg for the very first shot.

I'm for the leave it as it is and maybe do some bans route.

[SierraKomodo]

So. The situation Fowl was referencing, since he's using that as his reasoning for this thread. Jo'Zah, Imraj, and Rasine were in cargo. Jo'Zah and Imraj had crossbows made, Rasine just had a kitchen knife. Suddenly a nuke op shows up, opening the firelocks Rasine had dropped for the purpose of delaying anyone trying to get in. Jo'Zah and Rasine got into the warehouse, but Imraj got trapped.

So, Rasine grabs a welding tank, runs out with it as a distraction so Jo'Zah could get Imraj out of there (Split second decision to try to save someone that she thinks is actually decent Horrible plan that, for whatever reason, actually worked). Tank gets shot, explodes, 99% sure that knocked the nuke op down as he was on the ground before Jo'Zah showed up (I was down, too). He took a few (Not sure how many actually) crossbow bolts and was still able to get up before help showed up to subdue him.

So.. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting that crossbow bolts are OP, unless I missed something somewhere after my distraction ended in kaboom

As for crossbows, I've never actually used one or had one used on me. I don't have any characters that would know how to build one and actually build one and use it, so I can't really say anything for or against them

[LordFowl]

The meat of my complaint actually stems from a previous nuke round where three nuke OPeratives, including myself, got pinned to the wall. The only reason I survived to make this complaint is because IPCs don't bleed out.

Since I was just a ghost at the event you're citing, I don't have a very clear idea of what happened either.

[canon35]

I think I remember. Imraj went out to medical to see if they would need any help in there, spotted a dead guy in the bridge, went to go in, got cornered. In that situation, I had no other exits besides the holes in the walls of the bridge. Which were blocked.

[LordFowl]

Its not a question of roleplay validity; if I saw a fault in your actions I would have made a player complaint. This suggestion is purely about the crossbow, and any allusion to poor roleplay is unspecific and only for the point of argument, such as in Skull's post.

[Nik]

I was positive this meant the tiny stun crossbow

That thing is rarely used and terrible. What's the issue.

[Guest]

The thread is referring to the ballistic crossbow that can be manufactured with materials on-hand, particularly at cargo. It's a civilian-available vox spike thrower.

[Zuhayr]

Hyperbole is fun.

The spike thrower regenerates ammo and has no windup. The crossbow predates the spike thrower, descending from it.

Armour is a hard counter to the crossbow unless it functions differently here.

[LordFowl]

I don't know the specifics of the code in any shape or form, but I would assume Nuke Op Hardsuits are armoured, and I can say they are not a hard-counter.

[canon35]

Regarding crossbow usability...it's almost completely useless against more than one person.

You can take down one person on their own, but if that person has armed and angry buddies you're likely screwed due to the long reload.

[LordFowl]

Due to the nature of antagonists, you're often fighting either a small group of people or even just one person. I will admit that the crossbow probably isn't a great weapon for actually being an antagonist that wants to cause widespread damage. However, in defense against antagonists it truly becomes what I would say is overpowered, especially considering that antagonists that come into groups have a tendency to fracture as the round goes on. The antagonists that are alone are just out of luck.

[EvilBrage]

I think this might be more of a case of, maybe consider taking action against the user, as opposed to the weapon? Not everyone should have knowledge of how to make a giant ass crossbow. And even less people should have the willingness to charge into combat with it.

 

This.

By my count, you already need mining to get the plastic and cargo/botany to get the wood and metal - yes, cargo and mining are essentially the same department, and the only individual who would be able to gather everything required without going to anyone else would be a quartermaster. I'd go as far as to add that the crossbow is also the least versatile weapon in the game, requiring excessive maintenance to dish out the damage it does (power cell, reloading a metal rod after each shot, drawing the string back before each shot.) Furthermore, that individual would (in my opinion) also need training in both Construction and Electrical Engineering, as well as Weapon Expertise to even know how to aim and use the thing properly. If they're a non-antag and they robust you with a crossbow the moment you arrive on-station, ahelp it.

The only mechanical change I would make to the crossbow is to make it bulky rather than normal-sized; it shouldn't fit in your satchel along with ten other things, and if it does, it shouldn't be able to hold a metal rod large enough to inflict the damage it does. It has a sprite when wielded so there's no excuse for you not to run away the moment you spot someone with a crossbow and make preparations to combat them (see the revolver thread for tips on combating ballistics.)