Player Complaint - ReadThisNamePlz

[WickedCybs]

BYOND Key: WickedCybs
Game ID: caf-dodd
Player Byond Key/Character name: ReadThisNamePlz
Staff involved: Read, they were the loner.

Reason for complaint: 

Poor antag play on a dynamic round. The station was contending with a myriad of threats, involving a blob that spawned in the captains office, though the reason for this complaint comes from a Loner that was spawned in the round, Anilita Shakira. Supposed PRA agent arrived to pursue some mysterious ends. I was an officer for part of this round (Liliya Radic.)

Most of this really regards their actions and use of their psionic ability. According to Read, they spent TC's and ahelped for a further increase in psionic ability, forget the name of the faculty but it is the one regarding telekinesis. This would allow them to throw around people, heavier objects, stuff like that. Believe it also adds more force to these actions. Early in the round I witnessed them test the ability on a floor tile which they flinged at Rosa Alice. It critically wounded that person and they were in a medical OR for a very long time, perhaps even nearing an hour considering they were still there when I died.

The use of floor tiles was pretty much consistent throughout the round. Security was ordered to detain them. Me and Tau'ha'nor were the only officers carrying this out. We encountered the Loner on the bridge, went to intercept after they walked away from us. The extent of my interactions there involved telling the Loner we'd need to take them in of course, then the Loner prying off floor tiles in a radius around them, throwing them at me and finishing me off with a series of wall slams that left me in a further critical state and pretty much certain death. That tactic annihilates internal organs, causes arterials and breaks bones in just one to two uses. Max level psionics, for ya. I died quick even with CPR being applied by a helpful person. 

Read was apologetic, and I was willing to believe that they really didn't expect that nor wanted it to happen, not like psionics are used much, max level too. But then they flung floor tiles at other people again. In the midst of another dialogue. It killed another player (Azza Nazkiin, believe the ckey is Electric something) who didn't expect being taken out of the round so quickly in the aftermath. Just two hits, a limb broken and an arterial. Dead already even if they didn't know it just yet. Practically anyone not in the sidelines for that got severely wounded. And Read's character knew this, exclaiming that she mortally wounded everyone involved and that they were going to die promptly. Azza indeed, died promptly. Amal was rushed to medical in time but it wasn't looking good considering how many times a tile impacted their skull. Tau'ha'nor survived.

My main thought regarding all of this, is that a loner shouldn't have been given such power that goes beyond the scope of their role. They don't get the final levels of psionic power for a reason. Additionally, the powers shouldn't have been continued to be abused throughout the course of the round. It was powergaming and poor antag play. A player would have been heavily scrutinized for this so it wouldn't really be fair for me to let this go just because I like Read and they apologized. I can't buy the statement that they didn't know this would happen either, not after it was knowingly done again a second time.

This is a good example of how strong it is. 

I started tuning things out past a certain point, though a few ghosts told me they were watching the round and may have things to add.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation?

No, I didn't. I likely should have, but I figured the first incident in the round would have been the end of using TK to pretty much instakill people, but it happened again later in the round and I spent the rest of it considering the implications and whether or not any standard player would have been noted for it already. They would have, I believe. By the time I settled on my choice, round was basically over, Read cryoed and past parts of the log were already getting eaten by BYOND. So, I made the complaint to at least have this on the record and hopefully to stop any future occurrences of max level psionics being handed out lightly.

Approximate Date/Time: Saturday, January 23, 2021. 3:30 MST is a ballpark

As a note, I was advised to do this a player complaint. Was a bit unsure how it works if I was complainting the play of a staff member.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Really quick, player complaint is the right avenue. 

 

All I have to add is that, the only other time I used tiles was in the chem lab, but I threw it like twice, the swapped to "disorienting" the officers trying to arrest me. 

I really had no intention to kill you. I am sorry. However I don't think I wall slammed you? I do know I tossed you around. However, if you hit a wall, it wasn't intentional.

Arrow and I weren't aware how strong the TK is. So, when I used the floor tiles the first time, the result was a COMPLETE shock to me.

The second time, I threw one twice, and purposely missed the two officers. Chemistry floor tiles. 

Third time was also unintentional, as it was steel sheets. I figured sheets would be a lot less dangerous, compared to floor tiles. Why? Bc I have dropped sheets ontop of people and they walked away from it with like, MINIMAL damage. 

I contest the claim of powergaming. I do not think it is powergaming to use a ability and learn as it's being used, how powerful it is. Then take steps to try and mitigate the results, only to have it fail in the long run.

Poor antag play is also debatable. I drove a story. I drove conflict. I went to the station, not wanting to kill anyone oocly. If anyone ever watches my antag play, it is generally very unrobust bc I try to not kill.

I truly am sorry though.

[Arrow768]

We generally expect people to ahelp issues like that while the round is going on, so it can be immediately investigated with much less effort for everyone involved.
It also gives us the option to curb the problematic behavior immediately.

1 hour ago, WickedCybs said:

I spent the rest of it considering the implications and whether or not any standard player would have been noted for it already. They would have, I believe.

They would have been talked to if someone decided to ahelp it.
Noone decided to ahelp it so it was never investigated.

1 hour ago, WickedCybs said:

My main thought regarding all of this, is that a loner shouldn't have been given such power that goes beyond the scope of their role. They don't get the final levels of psionic power for a reason. Additionally, the powers shouldn't have been continued to be abused throughout the course of the round. It was powergaming and poor antag play. A player would have been heavily scrutinized for this so it wouldn't really be fair for me to let this go just because I like Read and they apologized. I can't buy the statement that they didn't know this would happen either, not after it was knowingly done again a second time.

Antags are often given gear that is outside of the scope of their role if they ask for it and are willing to trade something in return.
Read traded in 10 TCs for the power, which left them 5 for a emag.
So it was not given out lightly or without thought.
That said, I did not expect the final psyonic levels to be that powerful.
I tried to look up exactly what it does before handing it out, but I didnt have a editor open at the time and it takes a few minutes to build the search index.
My primary concern was actually the blade and not telekinesis, as I remembered TK as being relatively harmless from when it was obtainable via genetics.
Apparently that is not the case.

Regarding the continuous use and "read not being talked to because they are staff".
Not a single ahelp has been made regarding that.
It was never actively brought to my attention that there is a mechanic that might potentially be abused, therefore it was never investigated and read was never talked to about it.
Staff members that are online do not pay consistent attention to everything that is going on (and can not do so).
Therefore it is upon the players to ahelp questionable situations, so they are brought to the attention of the available staff members and can be properly investigated.
Accusations that something is not investigated because someone is a staff member are baseless.

[WickedCybs]

4 minutes ago, Arrow768 said:

snip

That is not really my thought in the least and there was no accusation Read wasn't "investigated" due to their position as a staff member, I'm well aware staff can be and are investigated if they do something troublesome. I addressed part of this in the "Did you ahelp or not, section." with my reasoning why. Didn't do an ahelp right out of the gate when I was killed due to multiple factors. Read pretty much said they didn't really expect TK to be that powerful, in dchat they apologized and I wasn't really that broken up over dying, just surprised they were given masterclass level psionics. I made a note at that point to discuss max level psionics after the round ended. When another person was killed by the power again 10-20 minutes after, that was when I began to reconsider my initial thoughts. I don't dislike Read and I wanted to think it was a one-off incident.  

I do have a belief that in the end, it is easier for staff on various SS13 servers to get by without warnings an average player would certainly receive. Hence my language regarding that matter, if it was confusing. The use of it was not continual, however.

In any case, I had a slight feeling that nobody on Aurora was really used to max level psionics. This was originally just going to be a policy suggestion. I'm very intimate with how the more abuseable psionic abilities are and pretty much instantly realized this was another case of another masterclass telekinetic.

2 hours ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

I contest the claim of powergaming. I do not think it is powergaming to use a ability and learn as it's being used, how powerful it is. Then take steps to try and mitigate the results, only to have it fail in the long run.

Poor antag play is also debatable. I drove a story. I drove conflict. I went to the station, not wanting to kill anyone oocly. If anyone ever watches my antag play, it is generally very unrobust bc I try to not kill.

I truly am sorry though.

I can't really believe that when you saw how powerful the abilities were and continually used them, then bragged about it ICly. It is not much of a stretch to see how powerful your abilities were, and you were told as much in dchat how powerful they were. You kept attacking to the point of overkill. One hit broke the HoS's face and gave them an arterial, and you kept going to the point where the officers on scene ran in and baton rushed you to get it to stop.

The antag play from what I saw, consisted of trying escape the brig via consular, and attacking anyone trying to talk to you as they were speaking. There wasn't anything more than "I'm an agent from the PRA." and being attacked by psionics mid sentence, as happened in part of the combat log I posted above. I have watched your antag play before and I can't say trying not to kill is what I've seen before. But that is neither here nor there for the purpose of the complaint.

Do not need to apologize. 

[ReadThisNamePlz]

1 hour ago, WickedCybs said:

That is not really my thought in the least and there was no accusation Read wasn't "investigated" due to their position as a staff member, I'm well aware staff can be and are investigated if they do something troublesome. I addressed part of this in the "Did you ahelp or not, section." with my reasoning why. Didn't do an ahelp right out of the gate when I was killed due to multiple factors. Read pretty much said they didn't really expect TK to be that powerful, in dchat they apologized and I wasn't really that broken up over dying, just surprised they were given masterclass level psionics. I made a note at that point to discuss max level psionics after the round ended. When another person was killed by the power again 10-20 minutes after, that was when I began to reconsider my initial thoughts. I don't dislike Read and I wanted to think it was a one-off incident.  

I do have a belief that in the end, it is easier for staff on various SS13 servers to get by without warnings an average player would certainly receive. Hence my language regarding that matter, if it was confusing. The use of it was not continual, however.

In any case, I had a slight feeling that nobody on Aurora was really used to max level psionics. This was originally just going to be a policy suggestion. I'm very intimate with how the more abuseable psionic abilities are and pretty much instantly realized this was another case of another masterclass telekinetic.

I can't really believe that when you saw how powerful the abilities were and continually used them, then bragged about it ICly. It is not much of a stretch to see how powerful your abilities were, and you were told as much in dchat how powerful they were. You kept attacking to the point of overkill. One hit broke the HoS's face and gave them an arterial, and you kept going to the point where the officers on scene ran in and baton rushed you to get it to stop.

The antag play from what I saw, consisted of trying escape the brig via consular, and attacking anyone trying to talk to you as they were speaking. There wasn't anything more than "I'm an agent from the PRA." and being attacked by psionics mid sentence, as happened in part of the combat log I posted above. I have watched your antag play before and I can't say trying not to kill is what I've seen before. But that is neither here nor there for the purpose of the complaint.

Do not need to apologize. 

I used the abilities continuously yes, because the base ability of tk itself does no damage, unless flinging stuff at people apparently. And I tried to mitigate the damage with the change of material used.

Bragging icly and oocly intentions are COMPLETELY different. Atleast to me. I can separate how a char acts, and feel absolutely shitty oocly while playing well icly. Just becauseI brag icly, does not mean I plan to actually be robust oocly. However with the Psiblade itself, I definitely overused that. But I again, did not know that they havea force of 50 damage. I also didn't take precautions to prevent any kind of security intervention. Stunbatons brought me down easily. 

I attacked mid sentence bc they opened the door and were preparing to barge in. Escalation had hit the point of shooting on sight. (Since i murdered you), I was openly hostile, etc.

I don't really know what you mean by my antag play, bc the only other gimmicks I've done was a wizard who is lost, etc  and a recent burglar round. Of which I took no action to even hurting anyone. Sure, I have intense rounds, but overall I do try to not kill anyone. But each round is different.

 

[WickedCybs]

7 hours ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

I used the abilities continuously yes, because the base ability of tk itself does no damage, unless flinging stuff at people apparently. And I tried to mitigate the damage with the change of material used.

Bragging icly and oocly intentions are COMPLETELY different. Atleast to me. I can separate how a char acts, and feel absolutely shitty oocly while playing well icly. Just becauseI brag icly, does not mean I plan to actually be robust oocly. However with the Psiblade itself, I definitely overused that. But I again, did not know that they havea force of 50 damage. I also didn't take precautions to prevent any kind of security intervention. Stunbatons brought me down easily. 

I attacked mid sentence bc they opened the door and were preparing to barge in. Escalation had hit the point of shooting on sight. (Since i murdered you), I was openly hostile, etc.

I don't really know what you mean by my antag play, bc the only other gimmicks I've done was a wizard who is lost, etc  and a recent burglar round. Of which I took no action to even hurting anyone. Sure, I have intense rounds, but overall I do try to not kill anyone. But each round is different.

 

The base ability does do damage when flung into a wall, but I can't say or not whether you tried to do that, specifically. In the end getting hit by a tile also does a flinging effect so that can be hard to notice. In any case, I do not really buy the "mitigation" thing when you could plainly observe what the results were, it would be like "mitigating" a .45 pistol by using a 9mm. Still lethal and highly dangerous. I'm not really sure how you can believe it was mitigative at all when standard thrown tiles/steel don't even hurt that much, as you said. The extra force added by TK completely eviscerates people. You saw this in my case, and Rosa Alice. You heard as much afterward when I died. Either way, it was poor.

Second thing, sure. That's fair when it comes to your intentions if you're speaking true. The rest though, was hardly easy and was more desperate, only saved by the pair that went into the office being lucky enough to land enough strikes to paincrit you before dying. Afterward, sec was basically screwed either way if you decided to continue to kill people.

Third, that specific moment would likely be considered fine escalation yes. It is sec's role in the end to get shot and perhaps killed in any first strike as they generally don't engage first. It was pretty much the only form of escalation I saw after Rosa Alice was crippled though. You killed me that way, you ultimately killed another officer that way. It's seriously disheartening when the escalation is only signing someones death sentence, and that was all you could do with the extremely powerful tools in the end. The dead officer felt pretty bummed about it, I wasn't really upset but it was certainly pretty head tilting even if it wasn't intentional.

From what I have noticed from your antag play, when you have a strong tool you tend to go heavy on its use. Like vamp dominating people into attempting to kill each other constantly in a round. There's always different gimmicks and yes, I've seen you not kill people before as an antag, but I've also seen it done rather liberally. That's really all I can say on the matter without going further into irrelevance.

[MattAtlas]

@BoryaTheSlayer and I will take this complaint.

[MattAtlas]

@WickedCybs We've looked at the logs and the only people wounded by floor tiles were Rosa Alice, your character and then Tau'ha'nor.

On 24/01/2021 at 02:42, ReadThisNamePlz said:

So, when I used the floor tiles the first time, the result was a COMPLETE shock to me.

The second time, I threw one twice, and purposely missed the two officers. Chemistry floor tiles. 

Third time was also unintentional, as it was steel sheets. I figured sheets would be a lot less dangerous, compared to floor tiles. Why? Bc I have dropped sheets ontop of people and they walked away from it with like, MINIMAL damage. 

This is wrong. As far as we can tell from the logs you used tiles against 3 different people. The first one was Rosa, then Radic, then Tau'ha'nor. If there were any intentional misses they seem a bit weird because you hit Tau'ha'nor with the floor tiles 3 different times. It should have been very obvious at that point, or even before that the floor tiles did way too much damage with TK. Why did you only stop then, and not before?

[DeadLantern]

Readmynameplz also used the tiles against my HoS, twice if my memory is correct. You can see one of the attacks in the one of the logs that Cybs posted. Both times I required surgery and was taken out of the round.

[WickedCybs]

5 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

@WickedCybs We've looked at the logs and the only people wounded by floor tiles were Rosa Alice, your character and then Tau'ha'nor.

That would make sense then, I likely mistook the steel sheets used on the last victim for floor tiles I suppose. And the screenshots do have that log.

My brain is stuck thinking gray = floor tile

Edited February 10, 2021 by WickedCybs
fuck

[MattAtlas]

On 09/02/2021 at 22:46, DeadLantern said:

Readmynameplz also used the tiles against my HoS, twice if my memory is correct. You can see one of the attacks in the one of the logs that Cybs posted. Both times I required surgery and was taken out of the round.

That's not a floor tile. That's a steel sheet.

[DeadLantern]

Yes, sorry, steel sheets. The first time I was hit, I don't know if it were steel sheets that hit me or floor tiles.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

On 09/02/2021 at 16:07, MattAtlas said:

@WickedCybs We've looked at the logs and the only people wounded by floor tiles were Rosa Alice, your character and then Tau'ha'nor.

This is wrong. As far as we can tell from the logs you used tiles against 3 different people. The first one was Rosa, then Radic, then Tau'ha'nor. If there were any intentional misses they seem a bit weird because you hit Tau'ha'nor with the floor tiles 3 different times. It should have been very obvious at that point, or even before that the floor tiles did way too much damage with TK. Why did you only stop then, and not before?

I used it on Rosa.. twice? And all I remember was that it caused some bleeding and (what I thought was, at the time, just fractures) so I didn't really take note. Considering she was unarmored, etc. 

"The second time, I threw one twice, and purposely missed the two officers. Chemistry floor tiles" I suppose this would actually be the third time. I used the chemistry tiles in the Lab, but was trying to actually miss the officers. Hence why I started grabbing the officers and throwing them instead.

During the conflict with Radic, I believe I hit the Unathi (Tau?) With the floor tiles as well, but this was before I knew Radic died so fast. Because it was hand in hand.

 

Now keep in mind that this happened a few weeks ago now, and I don't have the best memory. 

[ReadThisNamePlz]

45 minutes ago, DeadLantern said:

Yes, sorry, steel sheets. The first time I was hit, I don't know if it were steel sheets that hit me or floor tiles.

Pretty sure it was sheets that I used against you, because I made it a POINT to use a different material, with the hopes that it would make things less lethal. I was wrong, clearly. But my intentions weren't malicious. 

[MattAtlas]

So, after checking the logs, there were 3 instances of using floor tiles, which we don't see as abuse considering how little people were hit overall (the amount of damage is not something someone can reasonably expect without seeing TK as it's OP and expressly not in the normal gamemode rotation for a reason). After that, Read did make an effort to not use them and chose a throwing weapon that would deal way less damage-- steel sheets. Telekinesis is an ability that's meant to be used for offensive purposes so we don't fault her for continuing to use steel sheets, as they're just about the option that does the least damage.

However, admins will be warned to not give TK out without restrictions, or at all. This complaint will be archived in 24 hours.

[MattAtlas]

That was a lot longer than 24 hours, but, archived.