Ballisticurity

[Prospekt]

I like the idea of keeping a taser as a ranged weapon for a runner. But you can still have your side arm on you incase your life or another's is in immediate danger which requires to put the target down (Rubber bullets). This would be more satisfying to see, keeping both, allowing to carry both, but only using the .45 as a last resort. That's a good way to implement this to prevent abuse. Also if they use it on people who commit minor violations, they could be arrested for neglect of duty or excessive force.

[Jamini]

P.S. This is not Baystation please stop using arguments of well bay did this.

 

It's a clear example of this idea being used and tested elsewhere, and them having shown that it doesn't work in any way like the parties suggesting said idea think. The tests there showed significant abuse and problems with this idea, and again it was one of the fastest-reverted changes I had ever seen.

Our game is not dissimilar enough to ignore that. Both are Heavy RP (Not light. B12 is a HRP server). Both have similar rule sets. Both have not-dissimilar player-bases. Ignoring previously collected data when considering a change is a folly, even if the situation and environment is not exactly the same.

By all means try it, but do not be surprised if the number of incident reports and complaint threads triples in a night regarding them. Ballistics as standard issue, even weak ones, have caused significant problems when they have been tested elsewhere. I do not see Aurora having any different of an experience with them at all.

[Prospekt]

P.S. This is not Baystation please stop using arguments of well bay did this.

 

It's a clear example of this idea being used and tested elsewhere, and them having shown that it doesn't work in any way like the parties suggesting said idea think. The tests there showed significant abuse and problems with this idea, and again it was one of the fastest-reverted changes I had ever seen.

Our game is not dissimilar enough to ignore that. Both are Heavy RP (Not light. B12 is a HRP server). Both have similar rule sets. Both have not-dissimilar player-bases. Ignoring previously collected data when considering a change is a folly, even if the situation and environment is not exactly the same.

By all means try it, but do not be surprised if the number of incident reports and complaint threads triples in a night regarding them. Ballistics as standard issue, even weak ones, have caused significant problems when they have been tested elsewhere. I do not see Aurora having any different of an experience with them at all.

 

So why can't we have tasers as a ranged weapon and the .45 as a last resort? Just like helmets, you can keep them in bag (belt for the .45) but you can't use it unless it's code blue or red. You're allowed to use it if you life is in immediate danger but that's it. If you use it past that you'll be demoted and charged with excessive use of force and neglect of duty.

[Guest]

Yes, Jamini, but just because you had experiences in one instance/environment, it does not mean it's going to apply for every other environment as well. That's confirmation bias and it isn't a healthy debate device.

[GlamourChariot]

Alright, I'm not gonna have a go at anyone in particular, but I'd like to state that it seems like things are very much heading in the direction of an Us vs Them argument, with Jamini getting dogpiled on by those that disagree with him.

At risk of sounding a little too controlling, I'd like for people to not reply anymore unless they're adding a new idea or complication or otherwise bringing a different opinion to the matter, so as to avoid going in a circular argument of reiteration between two sides that ends in the thread being locked.

Sound good?

[Prospekt]

Yes, Jamini, but just because you had experiences in one instance/environment, it does not mean it's going to apply for every other environment as well. That's confirmation bias and it isn't a healthy debate device.

Exactly, we're not saying it's a permanent thing; just giving it a try would be good to test it out. But if majority of the community like it after the test then we keep it. Though there has to be strict rules on the ballistic firearm. Only only it to be drawn when there is absolutely nothing you can do (e.g nuke operatives firing lethals at you would be a good example on when to use it) or (A traitor is coming at you with a deadly weapon.) OR last one promise (Code red, when weapons can be drawn, you have the choice of an e carbine or your .45). Those are the rules. Anything else you use your taser that is given to you. There is no need to scrap the taser when it can be used for less lethal situations such as someone resisting arrest and sparking a man hunt.

[Prospekt]

Alright, I'm not gonna have a go at anyone in particular, but I'd like to state that it seems like things are very much heading in the direction of an Us vs Them argument, with Jamini getting dogpiled on by those that disagree with him.

At risk of sounding a little too controlling, I'd like for people to not reply anymore unless they're adding a new idea or complication or otherwise bringing a different opinion to the matter, so as to avoid going in a circular argument of reiteration between two sides that ends in the thread being locked.

Sound good?

Sounds fine to me. I just wanted to suggest some rules when dealing with the .45 that would help with the "abuse" argument. 1138 had some very good ideas with this.

 

Honestly, I merely see ballistics as an absolute last resort in the branch of escalation of force, I believe I made a post on that one thread about EoF before it was locked because of flaming? Still. So, keep tasers, right, along with the gun they have on-hand? Sound alright?

In addition, I also suggested a different form of tasers. Here. http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1512

It's honestly more to bring things in line with how actual security officers or cops react in real life. The thing is, though, this is a game. People are pressing buttons and seeing pixels change, they don't really care about the sound of ribs cracking and shattering as a 9mm parabellum round enters their chest, followed with their brothers and sisters, or the gushes and fountains of blood and bloody /grief/ that comes with shooting someone and taking them out of existence, in a single moment.

But, hey, not an issue any developer or admin can fix. Player issue... so, anyway.

Ballistics, I would assume, is not to be used as a first response to any normal situation. They're an absolute last resort, even if the mag is filled with rubber rounds. If people go around shooting people without any real reason or care in the world, they're gonna get smakt.

Does this seem fair, at least?

[Vanagandr]

I have no great investment either way - beyond to mention that R&D's SMGs are still using an outdated loading system and could really use an update.

I'm thinking - just off the top of my head here - what if security roles had an antag style roundstart announcement mentioning that shooting at people, with cap guns or tasers or eguns or that damned the LWAP, should be an absolute last-ditch "ogod people are gonna die if I don't" sort of thing?

[Guest]

Station Directives actually serve that purpose, to tell people ICly to not abuse it so that they don't get in trouble OOCly as a result.

So, there's one thing to consider. Making a station directive discussing the regulations on firearms and whatnot.

[Vanagandr]

Station Directives actually serve that purpose, to tell people ICly to not abuse it so that they don't get in trouble OOCly as a result.

So, there's one thing to consider. Making a station directive discussing the regulations on firearms and whatnot.

Because Officer Maximilian Robusticus always reads things like 'roolz' and 'stayshun directeevs'.

At least with big letters in eye-searing neon orange there's no room for 'didnt read lol'.

[Guest]

And if they don't, they will be punished for it. Everything has a consequence, whether it is positive or negative is dependent on the action.

"Well, Bald" doesn't really work in this situation at this point, because the solution to it is to stop them.

[Chaznoodles]

I immediately dislike this idea. We have tasers which work fine. There is no need to give a possibly lethal firearm to officers, at all.

[Carver]

Teaching Security a greater level of resource-management, whilst encouraging them to think about what tool to use is something I wholeheartedly endorse. I can't tell you how brainless it really is just to whip out your taser and fire it wildly during a chase/fight, because even missing has little repercussions to it. Counting your shots will be key, and using them on a drunken hooligan in a bar will come with heavy consequence.

It also answers the eternal and somewhat interesting question of why the five odd Security Guards on the valuable space station were given little more than tasers and cattle prods as standard issue sidearms to protect said station. You don't always expect your employees to act like petty thieves and children, do you?

 

Because Officer Maximilian Robusticus always reads things like 'roolz' and 'stayshun directeevs'.

Typically people who don't read the rules will run into trouble regardless.

[Flamingo]

I'd actually like to see this implemented for a few rounds to see how it works out. If there's too much griefing and people are irresponsible, then just toss them in the armory, or remove them all together. The worst that happens is we remove them, right? That being said I'd like to see a few things implemented:

-Shell casings please. I actually would enjoy having officers tape off the area for a formal investigation

-shell casing-handgun "fingerprint". You know like how in real life guns have engravings on the inside of the barrel so you can tell if a specific gun fired a specific bullet? I think it could really add to CSI/security if ballistics testing was implemented, so that you could have your CSI see if said officer really did (or did not) fire their firearm. It would also add to covering your tracks if you were an antag sec officer, or abusive. Learn to pick up after yourself or get proven guilty by CSI.

-Rubber bullets bounce of reinforced windows, or at LEAST do less damage to them (pls).

I think this could add depth to the RP of both CSI and Security, without TOO much of an increase in their force. That being said, if this is abused, it should be removed/put in the armory, and/or punishments handed out.

Overall +1. I'd like to see how this works for a few rounds. If things go how Jamini expects, we can always revert the change. There's no harm in trying.

[Carver]

-Rubber bullets bounce of reinforced windows, or at LEAST do less damage to them.

If the rubbers have low-enough brute damage, they'll be genuinely horrible for breaking windows anyways. Old-timey variations (That is, non-Aurora versions) of the .38 rounds for the Detective did genuinely awful damage (10 brute or so) and required you to dump your entire chamber into a window to even hope to get past it.

I can't imagine you'll really be seeing any cases of the "I missed with a revolver and busted a window by accident" that you see with SMG spraying, Shotguns, .357 rounds, and lethals as a whole. Unless of course Security is having some manner of absolutely massive shootout vs Group Antags in an area with many windows. Which in retrospect will be a much less silly thing to see with pistols instead of tasers.

On another note, your suggestion for Ballistic Forensics is pretty neat. If not an already somewhat present concept, as examining spent shells will typically give you their caliber.

[Guest]

Quick question. If lethal ammo is issued in an emergency, will security retain their laser weaponry? As already said, lasers have a clear advantage over balistics and thus there is no reason to issue lethal bullets at all, unless, of course, lethal bullets are stronger. I can already see constant decaps if that is the case.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I tentatively support this idea. Detectives do have to be extremely careful about when they shoot, and when I run detective every single time I try to either grab or sneakgrab a canister of pepperspray so I have a non-lethal escalation in the force I can utilize to defend myself in a situation where my flash is ineffective but my gun would be absurdly overpowered.

In order for a trial run to work, we would need to make it through a grace period where we all accept that mishaps will occur as we adjust. This would be a commitment we couldn't just run for a single week and call it a failure, because every single regular or casual/new player will have to adjust him/herself to this change in SoP. But this does bring accountability and a shift in the application of force, and lets us more stringently recognize and be forced to deal with excessive force.

[canon35]

I vote we do a trial run, see how it goes (On hidden).

[Skull132]

Okay. So, the admins had a bit of a discussion about it.

We would like to see it tested. Even if it purely ends up as being, "We tested this, doesn't work," we still want to have the experience and confirmation. The basic idea for the testing is to have it in two phases. Phase one will be where you need an active HoS to transfer over for one round. This will also be reliant on active feedback. So, the basic premise is: HoS wants to assist with testing, so they load up, and at the start of the round use some mechanic to outfit sec with ballistics. They play through the round, and then file a feedback report on how it went. Once we get enough feedback reports, we'll move onward.

Phase two will be completely replacing the existing tasers with ballistic and less than lethal alternatives, regardless of an active hosses status. This is a less controlled environment, more akin to day to day usage.

Phase one will effectively serve to prepare and familiarize. Just dumping new weaponry onto folks will make the results skewed. It will also offer a more controller environment in which to address issues and so forth.

Phase two will be the actual test in active operation.

Thoughts?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Being that spring break just started for me, if this is within this week (lol fast) I can provide my HoS or even a DO, or a DO to watch over the stated HoS.

[Nik]

Firstly, this thread went balls out large in the day since I last posted.

Secondly, I'll also do the same, I had supposedly been about to be approved to be a duty officer, but the messages just /stopped/ suddenly. So I have no idea. But I'll throw Nik in for this as a temporary HOS, unless someone wants to figure out the duty officer thing.

Thirdly, I'd recommend ignoring every antag round where someone complains because they went robust changeling and ate a clip from a Sec officer.

[Guest]

Regular HoS player, reporting in.

I'd be willing to assist you in gathering feedback and data.

[Mark9013100]

Actually, Baycurity still has tasers in their lockers (dunno if this has been said already, only read the first page).

Edit:

Page 2 rant.

 

I've been playing security and medical on Bay for the last two years, even after the pistols became standard issue, only like three times have I seen someone get sent to medical for rubber bullet related injuries. Not once have I seen someone get trigger happy. Pal, I think you're just making stuff up.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Guest

[mrimatool]

Another regular HoS here. Glad to help when I'm on. As HoS, Warden and Security officer when I can

[Blue]

I really don't see what the point to this is. I don't see what's preventing people from abusing guns like these. All I can see from this is more accidental "MEDBAY TO BRIG" incidents. Other than the obvious one-shot-stun, what makes these guns better than using a taser?