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Staff Complaint - Garnascus


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BYOND Key: (This is your Byond Login/Ckey)

Omicega


Staff BYOND Key: (This is the Byond Login/Ckey of the staff member)

Garnascus


Game ID: (If applicable. Game ID of the round on which the incident took place. If you don't remember the exact one, then the round after or the round before works as well.)

ca7-dvs0


Reason for complaint: (State your reason for your complaint)

image.png.5c63430d2f4a255f1af1c20b3ee98baa.png

I'm not satisfied with receiving this formal administrative warning for excessive force used against a Diona antagonist and want it either struck from my record entirely or downgraded to a note.


Evidence/logs/etc:

full logs of the encounter and ticket logs

non lethals comparison vs human and diona

 

Additional remarks:

I don't have a lot to say other than what I said in the ticket and that I'd like a second opinion on the logs present. It's come to my attention that the Diona in question was played by Yonnimer, another member of staff and someone intimately familiar with the species as a whole, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't think this factored into the nature of Garn's approach to my ticket. I am vaguely aware that there have been issues with the strength of Diona antagonists during past eras of Aurora. My experience with Diona, as I said in the ticket, boils down to the Bay iteration of the species, where they are to my knowledge banned from being an antag at all due to how powerful they can be. I would accept being spoken to about some of the things Garn mentioned in the ticket -- that much is fine -- but I'm contesting having it made into a formal warning given the context of the round and several other factors. I don't know how I can be expected to be familiar with every niche of every weird species here -- Diona don't feel pain on Bay at all, among other things that make them vastly more powerful -- and I don't agree with the ruling that I should be expected to put my rifle away in the middle of an ongoing firefight to engage an armed Diona that seems to actively be trying to take someone as a body shield. For reference, the Diona in question didn't die, as was alleged by Garn at one point in the ticket, and they were to my knowledge successfully detained following the firefight.

This encounter came at the very end of a round wherein the raider team took the head of security and the captain (all of command staff at the time) hostage and made several disjointed threats regarding their safety along with vague, incoherent demands, so tension had been extremely high for a long time. I am not sure what the roleplay rationale behind two raiders deciding to leave their ship and decapitate Pun Pun in the bar was, but considering that as of the time of the logs in question they were already considered more than hostile I want to contest the formal nature of the warning. I feel as if this is a textbook example of baiting security into a firefight for no good reason and I don't think this was taken into consideration during Garn's handling of the issue.

Furthermore, I am contesting very strongly that you can detain a Diona non-lethally at all, as Garn says. Here is some of my local testing uploaded as an MP4:

https://streamable.com/lbnee6

I was told by Garn that a stunbaton would have sufficed, but here I empty an entire energy carbine, an entire disruptor pistol, and an entire stunbaton into a Diona I'm playing on an alternate BYOND account without it suffering any ill-effects whatsoever. It went whitescreen during the whole process of being shot, but at no point did it go to ground or seem impaired by all the pain damage being inflicted. For these reasons and those I've already listed above, I'd like the decision looked at again.

Edited by Omicega
how do I work embeds
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I think it should go without saying that I wasn't aware Diona were so resistant to pain while I was being spoken to by Garnascus, otherwise I would have contested the decision even more fiercely in the ticket itself. It was only because someone unrelated contacted me after the round and advised me to test the effectiveness on non-lethals on Diona before posting this that I bothered to look into it at all, otherwise I would have taken him fully at face value.

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@Yonnimer

Hello. I had a brief discussion with Alberyk just now on Discord about whether to open a new complaint directed at you or just to post in this one, and Alb told me to just post here again and @ you so you'd be aware of the post. When I initially wrote the complaint I knew you were someone who played Diona to a large degree, but I didn't know you were in fact the species maintainer for it.

If you weren't deadminned during the ahelp and ticket exchange between myself and Garn, and assuming my video evidence is an accurate portrayal of how Diona react to stuns from carbines, batons etc., I'd like to know if you said anything in msay/asay or another staff channel to try and correct Garn when he pushed forward with the idea that a stunbaton is enough to detain a Diona successfully. Barring there being something wrong with my test conditions on the local server, I don't see how this is accurate at all, and I'm being blunt and straightforward when I say that I'd like to know if you took any action at all to let Garn know that he was warning me to employ entirely ineffective methods when arresting Diona in the future.

Obviously I cannot see mod or admin chat but if you were able to see it and the ongoing ticket and didn't at any point say anything about how resistant Diona are to pain then I want to expand my complaint to include you for your inaction as the ultimate authority on the Diona species and its workings on a ticket that came to involve confusion about their exact mechanics. I am aware that you were involved as a player in the ticket and I'm not suggesting that you should have taken it, but if you didn't say anything at all in mod/admin chat regarding the confusion -- that only got highlighted because I specifically went out of my way to test these things locally! -- I'd like to know why.

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@Omicega In msay I mentioned forcing a dionae to split was not something trivial, it was giving them massive braindamage and memory loss. 

I did, however, mention in the ticket that Dionaea can feel pain/be stun batond.  While they take less pain than a human does, it can still cause them to collapse and the like.  I mentioned it in the ticket since I believe it would've been a better thing to do than use the laser rifle since you were already right next to my tree. 

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I don't believe that Diona do feel pain or suffer enough from a stunbaton to be considered reasonably detainable by those methods, as my video evidence demonstrates. Unless there's some sort of code difference I'm not aware of between my local copy of the Aurora repo and the live server, I'm contending that even if I had resorted to my baton and disruptor I would have had no hope at all of grounding you. I emptied three full stunning weapons into a Diona in the footage provided with no visible effect other than a white screen and a few pain messages on the Diona's BYOND client, for reference, so I find it impossible to agree with your assessment that they react meaningfully at all to pain.

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1 hour ago, Omicega said:

I think it should go without saying that I wasn't aware Diona were so resistant to pain while I was being spoken to by Garnascus

YO

SEVENTY PERCENT LESS PAIN FROM SEC TOOLS. 50 % LESS PAIN OVERALL?!?! Hoooooooooly moly, well alberyk just banished my ignorance. I had no idea it was that ridiculous. This is literally like being right next to a tank and me telling you to use your baton instead of your laser rifle. Wtf. Yeah man if those numbers are true my bad. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

SEVENTY PERCENT LESS PAIN FROM SEC TOOLS. 50 % LESS PAIN OVERALL?!?

I wasn't aware it was this fucking much lmao. I thought it was just 30% less damage, not 130% or however this works out in math, gonna look into this and might get it changed given I just tried stunning a dionae in the thunderdome and the baton ran out of charge first before they dropped. 

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Hi Dionae dep here. Dionae are weak to flashes and sunglasses cannot provide immunity to flashes since you're a huge mass of eyeballs, it's a hard counter

 

edit: flashes are actually so powerful they're op against diona

Edited by Lmwevil
clarifications
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I will remove the warning. It was outlandish to even consider that anyone had to try to arrest dionae in that situation when you consider that the fact they feel pain barely matters, because:

-they feel only half of the total pain

-they reduce 70% of the incoming pain damage from stunbatons and tasers

Garnacus was not aware of this and asked for the warning to be removed when told these facts.

In regards to Yonnimer behavior, I will post more about it later.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, so this is the conversation that happened between Yonnimer and Garnascus in regards to the stun situation

Quote

 

[2021-03-18 00:16:54.180] ca7-dvs0 ADMIN: PM: Yonnimer/(Sailors Of The Low Sea)->Garnascus/(Dayton Brown): I don't think it justifies them going full lethal mode on someone already down with zero attempts of anything else, especially since worstcase they could've smacked with a stunbaton since dionae feel pain

[2021-03-18 00:17:06.601] ca7-dvs0 ADMIN: PM: Garnascus/(Dayton Brown)->Yonnimer/(Sailors Of The Low Sea): You can baton diona?

[2021-03-18 00:17:18.012] ca7-dvs0 ADMIN: PM: Yonnimer/(Sailors Of The Low Sea)->Garnascus/(Dayton Brown): Yes, dionae feel pain, they'll go down from stuns

 

And taking in consideration that the flash mechanic was not in the wiki until now, I find really strange that you do not even know the mechanics of your species and claimed that it was possible to stun them with batons, when that is nearly impossible in practice. @Yonnimer explain this, please.

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I was aware they had some resistance to stuns, which in hindsight I should’ve told garn in the ticket since I brought tup they felt pain. I wasn’t aware how resistant they were in practice though since I’d never actually seen a dionae being stunned in a round.  If I did I wouldn’t have brought up them feeling pain the first place since yeah it’s unreasonable to tell someone to use stuns on a dionae in this situation with their pain resistance 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Talked to the lore team and they applied a warning as per the team's regulations due to yonnimer providing incorrect information about the species' mechanics to staff.

I think this solves all the issues of this complaint. I will close it in a day or so.

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