Player Complaint - DanseMacabre

[Haydizzle]

BYOND Key: Haydizzle/Petrichor#0098
Game ID: N/A
Player Byond Key/Character name: DanseMacabre/DanseMacabre#9108
Staff involved: N/A
Reason for complaint: Toxic behavior
Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? N/A
Approximate Date/Time: Over the last year.

Danse (among other people) has had a toxic and badgering mindset regarding dionae lore and even its former and current writers. There is a line between jokes and harassment and I feel Danse has stepped over that line. I'm not posting many logs due to the fact that any search of him saying "diona" in the main and relay discords shows his belligerent behavior. Even today, he posted a wood chipper gif in reply to a dionae meme. However, in case it is written off as "just a joke":

[Kintsugi]

I'm going to be brief because I feel this complaint is wholly without grounds, to say the very least. It is well-known that I do not like diona as a species, certainly, and I have frequently voiced this strong distaste for them. I have never, however, harassed a diona lore developer or a diona player. And neither do I condone harassment of diona lore developers or diona players. There is a massive fundamental difference between voicing disdain for a species, perhaps in a overly-harsh manner, and harassing the diona lore team or members of the diona playerbase. To be very clear, it is my understanding that you cannot harass a fictional lore entity. In fact, I do not have a problem with diona lore in general, per se - I dislike the species on the grounds of what it is fundamentally, and I do not lay responsibility for diona being the way they are at the feet of the diona lore team or their predecessors.

1 hour ago, Haydizzle said:

Even today, he posted a wood chipper gif in reply to a dionae meme.

Yes, this was a joke.

Regardless of the outcome of this complaint, I think it's clearly for the best that I do not further speak of diona lore, in joking terms or serious, ever again.

Edited September 10, 2021 by DanseMacabre

[Zundy]

Since the diona meme that got the wood chipper gif was my meme (of course it was LOL) I'm just popping in to say, like I said to Danse in DMs, that I wasn't offended by that particular post as I think it was a joke. I don't know about the other stuff as I wasn't there.

[Marlon P.]

I can attest to the behavior. This individual has been very mean in the past, and I've had to block them on our discord due to the same behavior shown. It's not just diona lore but any decision of lore or development they disagree with they respond to with the same kind of swipes and so-called ironic jokes  or thinly veiled hostility, to the point that it seems to be bullying and a violation of rule 1.

[Alberyk]

Can you post some examples of the behavior you find problematic? Some context would be helpful. We are also not taking in consideration anything taken from non-affiliated discord unless it is really bad like doxxing.

[Alberyk]

3 minutes ago, Marlon P. said:

I can attest to the behavior. This individual has been very mean in the past, and I've had to block them on our discord due to the same behavior shown. It's not just diona lore but any decision of lore or development they disagree with they respond to with the same kind of swipes and so-called ironic jokes  or thinly veiled hostility, to the point that it seems to be bullying and a violation of rule 1.

If you are going to say this, post any evidence because you are not involved in the situation.

[Haydizzle]

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

Can you post some examples of the behavior you find problematic? Some context would be helpful. We are also not taking in consideration anything taken from non-affiliated discord unless it is really bad like doxxing.

I went back to check actually and there were no mentions of dionae from Danse. Please note the timestamp in the top left:

Compare this to this morning:

Unless Discord is pulling a fast one on me, someone deleted the evidence. Since the audit logs on the relay have shown nobody deleting these messages, Danse has either deleted them or removed the mentions of dionae and interfered with the complaint. I have however full screencaps of the times and locations of his messages from the general and relay discords if you wish for me to provide them in full, but unfortunately they lack context.

[Kintsugi]

I would like to clarify that I did mention the deletions to Alb - I was very upset after I saw this complaint and didn't think about how bad it'd look on my part, I just wanted to swear off mention of the species altogether. I am nonetheless glad you saved them. You should be able to get the context of the conversations with a little work by searching what I said on those given days.

Edited September 10, 2021 by DanseMacabre

[Haydizzle]

These are all the logs I have, pertaining to everything on the relay and comments on the main discord out to October.

https://imgur.com/a/IGPkT2K

[Marlon P.]

.Haydizzle already posted what I'd post and danse deleted everything else, so i retract my original post since i dont have anything meaningful to add

[Lucaken]

Coming here only to say that, quite recently, there was a discussion in the Lore Server regarding Diona that I was a part of, where towards the end the topic became something very similar - people 'jokingly' teasing/hating the species as a whole, while not really reading the lore, or understanding how it affects players and the dev team.

Danse made a (I think) serious remark about not liking the species, which only fueled my rant at the time. In retrospect I was a bit heated during the whole thing, and I promptly apologized to him about it. The important part of this is that even during that short conversation and my general experience with him, he never felt like a toxic player that goes out of his way to be mean.

However, I do believe he lacks a certain amount of understanding about how much damage he causes with these remarks, as are most people that make them.

4 hours ago, DanseMacabre said:

I have never, however, harassed a diona lore developer or a diona player. And neither do I condone harassment of diona lore developers or diona players.

It may not be direct harrassment, but it does have an effect. When you endlessly complain and berrate a species and its lore simply because you do not see yourself playing as them (or think that they don't even fit into the setting) without giving anything in the way of constructive feedback or explanation, you are going to influence people's thinking on these topics. Worse, you will negactively impact the motivation of players and writers. who just want to do their best. I can say with confidence that in the short time I have experienced Danse's remarks, I have felt a decrease in my own motivation to play my Diona character.

Even with all that, I still don't believe he is as toxic as some might think. I think he just never considered the effect he might have with his words, and I was hoping this thread might help in a positive way. Sadly, I don't think deleting all your logs and vowing to never speak on Diona ever again is a good way, just the easiest and most childish. 

4 hours ago, DanseMacabre said:

I do not have a problem with diona lore in general, per se - I dislike the species on the grounds of what it is fundamentally

I don't believe someone can be so fundamentally opposed to an entire species that they think the best choice is to never speak of them ever again. I think that just shows a lack of initiative to engage with the lore, and a horribly pessimistic attitude. Ultimately, my wish is for him to find a way where he can make his opinions more constructive, without severe punishment, which I still don't think he deserves.

[Haydizzle]

I came back to add a post, but Lucaken summarized my thoughts in a nutshell. I don't really have anything else to add to this post unless someone else decides to comment.

[Alberyk]

@Haydizzle why did you not post the stuff you had first instead of an imagem from a non-affiliated discord?

[Haydizzle]

51 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

why did you not post the stuff you had first instead of an imagem from a non-affiliated discord?

I originally wanted to put it all in the complaint, but realized as I was combing through conversations that it would have bloated the post to a ridiculous size. I wanted the complaint to be short and sweet seeing that all of my evidence was searchable on Discord and context was a click away.

The image was added because I felt it showed intent and couldn't just be shrugged off as a joke.

[Kintsugi]

Originally I wanted to send this to Haydizzle himself instead of posting it here. However, Haydizzle has me blocked on discord and does not appear to want to unblock me, and I respect his decision to do so. This is edited to a substantial degree, as the original version was a somewhat more personal and it didn't feel right posting it here unedited. 

Spoiler

haydizzle has seen it and it is no longer necessary for this to be here

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by DanseMacabre

[Garnascus]

Alberyk and I have discussed this issue at length and reviewed all of the evidence presented. Danse will be receiving a warning for his conduct. While you did not harass any lore developers directly you where overtly mean spirited in your views on diona. It can be emotionally draining to see mean spirited comments about your work as a lore dev repeated on our platforms. While we are not directly taking action against you for attempting to delete evidence it is something we must explicitly discourage. It is really not a good look. 

Just relax a bit.