Limit cyborg's access

[Desven]

I don't think I'm being unreasonable. As of now, a borg is not only capable of doing your job, it can also do it better than you with given access. We have so many issues with borg players wanting to replace first responders without a regard to their module and I don't even think it's unreasonable for them to do: as of now, you can enter everywhere with every single module, so of course you'll want to help. There is zero justification to keep all access for cyborgs other than 'they help the crew', no other job follows this. If you, as a human character, were to act in the same manner, you would get banned. You want to suddenly help medical instead of science? Switch modules.

 

Basically, just give them the same access a head of staff has. So airlocks, maintenance, a bit of security and full department. Nothing else is needed. As a side note, I think the default module should get the same access as an assistant, to really discourage players from just rolling with that.

 

Again, there is no justification to do otherwise. You can help the crew in many different ways and if it's really needed for you to do it as a cyborg, ask for a module switch. I think the science module can change modules itself, but that should be changed because it is too common to see science borgs choose the module in bad faith. All access as a cyborg is meant to be as a trade-off, or even bonus, in LRP servers where you can just walk to the roboticist and ask to become a robot. I don't think it has place in HRP and as far as I know, Bay has already moved forward in removing all access for cyborgs too.

[Pratepresidenten]

Why make another thread that is more or less identical to your previous one though?

My stance still remains the same. Borgs are equipment meant to fill lacking roles in X department. Overstepping borgs needs to be ahelped.

Besides, how would you even justify this icly? "We've removed key access from our lawbound slaved synthetics because we dont want them going into places as we dont trust them to do as they're lawed to do."

Personally I find it more unreasonable that xenospecies outside skrell are allowed to work on the station, or anyone with less than perfect records. Hell, how is it even justified to have non-synths working menial and hazardous jobs when you can have the dime a dozen borgs do them more efficiently and with almost no profit loss?

 

I just find it hard to believe that borgs are so problematically intrusive and un-ahelpable that they warrant two threads in an attempt to limit their issues.

[Carver]

7 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Personally I find it more unreasonable that xenospecies outside skrell are allowed to work on the station, or anyone with less than perfect records. Hell, how is it even justified to have non-synths working menial and hazardous jobs when you can have the dime a dozen borgs do them more efficiently and with almost no profit loss?

Wasn't lore on the borgs that they were stupid expensive? While I agree with you on some of the xenos working being odd (given the innate security risk), for some reason I recall borgs being dumb expensive or some such lore-wise, whilst most of the xenos are, to the credit of the devs, mechanically paid less than humans/skrell.

[Arrow768]

@DesvenCould you please explain the difference between this thread and the one you previously created.
At a quick glance it looks like they are suggesting the same thing.

[Desven]

Yes, I'll reply to both. Basically, my previous suggestion was more radical: have borgs specialize to one module only. This one is much more tame in that it's just limit their acccess. As for the IC justifications:

 

Head of staff access is still great access, especially without any whitelist involved. Also, mechanics in game change all the time. There was s great controversy when sec got maintenance access removed, and it wouldn't surprise me if this same argument was brought up.

 

Basically, I don't think you can reduce this issue to a few bad apples when you are encouraged by your access to act like this. The laws will get lawyered no matter what. There really is zero reason for a science module borg, which is helping in science, to be able to access the supermatter and power it. Again, stick to your lane. Any other person doing this, playing a human character, would get bwoinked even if your records say you have a PhD in robotics and the supermatter. There are so many other ways to help if you see a lacking manifest that even joining as a drone is viable. I don't really understand the borg urge to act as a jack of all trades.

[AnselmKonrad]

I'll put my two cents here, sorry to necro this a bit considering the last reply was sunday.

As a borg main, I disagree with the access limitations as stationbounds are intended to be capable to help as needed, and requested where needed. However, over time I have learned how this plays accordingly and its honestly a huge learning curve because of the overall disdain some people have for borgs since its been prevalent that cyborg players step out of their lane a lot: primarily new players. I have personally done this, faced the consequences and plenty of them, and I feel I have learned enough to comment here regarding it. Even if the way I learned has put me in perhaps a poor place I have experienced the curve. This is why cyborgs dont need to be limited access wise. They are already intended to be limited, it is just not well written anywhere sadly and that needs to be corrected.

They are not intended to step into other department's work if there is people in that department. For context, you mention a research module going into engineering to setup the supermatter. Whilst this in a general case scenario, is frowned apon if there is actually people there and is infact ahelpable if there is people there already. An atmospheric technician technically would not know how to setup a supermatter crystal, but they can be trained if I recall correctly. If one is present the borg cannot or at least should not go into engineering and setup the engine without asking or most of all being asked to do it. Simply doing it "just because no engineer" is again: ahelpable. There is staff that could do it. This is even still applicable should there be only a engineering apprentice. There is staff there, the borg has no place unless requested, or has asked that person if they need help and the response was "Yes, please come and help" in that exact wording or similar. This applies to all modules, they should not step into other's affairs without asking or being asked before actual action is taken. They are infact jack of trades, but there is limits. These limits tend to get biased, granted, but it is within the community's right to ahelp those that step out of these boundaries I have said, because this is what I have learned the expectation is.

How is the above different from a scientist somehow having "knowledge of the super matter" is that science lacks access, hacking in is frowned upon by any department besides engineering. As well as they would not actually, or at least fully know how engineering works to that kind of degree to set it up. This is essentially metagaming off the basis of that "scientist very smart. can do many job." You may know how a supermatter crystal works or at least what it is, but not the engine. Even a research director doing this I find would be odd. Whats the point of a chief engineer then if a RD can do it? This is similar to a scientist knowing how to make all of medical's medications outside of being a skrell who can, by lore definition, learn several professions. Even then as a skrell, this still applies for a good portion and for the same reasonings as cyborgs. Cyborg's knowledge bases are not well defined, but it is generally accepted that they know more than just their department and may act when needed only on such knowledge. Their limitations are really as far as the player takes them, but for those who do not they should keep this all in mind, because this is what's expected, or at least accepted. 

Research modules are currently capable of minor engineering, minor medical, and research. The problem is that they require these tools to be able to do research work and are useless if they dont because research is vast in tool requirements. And even with the tools they already have, they still cannot do some jobs in research. But they need to, again, keep in mind the fact that if there is people in the department already, they should not be setting up the engine. They should not be helping in medical if they are not that module. If either department has explicitly stated a need, the borg may then speak up and say "I can help." and if accepted, they may. They may not go and do it "just because" such that as a research borg doing medications because there was no pharmacist. They may not go and do the engine or atmospherics because "there was no engineer." They may do it when the power is failing. They may go if medical has explicitly asked for medications and actually need it, or someone is dying and they need let in when there is no medical. Outside of these "mays and may not?" No: they cant. Ahelp. Why is it this way? It is to keep cyborgs from power gaming. I am somewhat of an offender myself: I have been warned for it. I was even banned for it. It is you the player that keeps cyborgs in line, just as the community keeps each other in line. Cyborg laws are not in preference, stated even in-game and even in server rules. If a cyborg is "lawyering its laws" ahelp. The default law set is literal, and not to be argued. Their access comes as a perk to their role, their choices on how they interpret the way to play is not. 

One major issue I have found is the easy redundancy of first responders by medical modules. Is this a problem on the medical module? No: it is a problem with the borg's player. Ahelp them. The only time a medical module should be a first responder is when there isn't one present or they have explicitly been asked by a CMO, the captain, or a first responder themselves. The issue OOCly with this is when there is first responders that instead of staying "on call" inside medical they roam the station and are sometimes out of reach or not able to quickly respond to calls because they are elsewhere. Let alone some do not report where they are, when they leave, or if they have left their current location when they move locations outside of medical. Nor do some report wether or not they are responding. When this happens, what can medical do? They can only wait, and wait on them to respond to the issue or respond on radio, or 1-2 minutes later suddenly rush in wordlessly with a patient on a stretcher into the GTR. These 1-2 minutes are critical if the patient was heavily injured. I am not suggesting that medical modules should be allowed to step on a first responder's toes, it is just that it is a mutual problem that cannot be addressed properly and fully because a first responder's job is very small, very niche, and there is little substance to it. Their whole entire job is run, acquire a patient, stabilize, and bring them back for full treatment with minor GTR knowledge. I personally find that if a first responder is ironically not responding properly over radio; it is justified for a medical module and especially a rescue module to be sent and take their place. Medical has gotten to a point where if there is a first responder, medical will actually not respond to calls unless the first responder explicitly says "I need help." because first responders are very keen on ahelping anyone trying to help them that isnt a first responder. The exception? Rescue modules are first responders. They are intended for that purpose, they can do that job without being asked. Medical modules cant even if they are more capable treatment wise.

Please dont take this as angry, because I dont intend it to be, but this is my two cents and what I have learned. I just... talk a lot. Sorry for the TL;DR.

I personally find that these remarks should be better clarified in the job guides, or at least somewhere. Players cannot easily reference information like this and I personally dislike that as the only true way to learn any of this would be to constantly ahelp asking admins "can I do x and y if z has occured?" or... learn the hard way by making mistakes and putting your player record at risk as I have.

Edited October 26, 2021 by AnselmKonrad
putting an apology because i talk too much :(